Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Hebrews 9 last verse makes me wonder: He is coming for those who are EXPECTING him! Am I reading that wrong?

I think you are reading more into it than what is there.  Now I do believe that there will be a reward for those who eagerly long for His appearing, and that would probably be related to holding a pre-trib position since all the other positions seem to be focused on the Antichrist and the other stuff going on. 

2 Timothy 4:8  Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

And really, isn't this situation kind of weird?  Folks who are redeemed so focused on the Antichrist, what seals happen when, how many do we go thru, etc instead of longing for the catching away of the redeemed which seems to be much of the emphasis in the NT as the blessed hope?  Worrying about being ready for the Tribulation instead of being ready for our gathering to the Messiah?   Frankly, the latter seems more in line with "we have not been given a spirit of fear".

And those poor Thessalonians were so worried that the Day of the Lord / Tribulation had started because a fake letter had been circulating regarding that idea, that Paul had to remind them of what he taught them,  that day would not happen until the departure occurs so that the Man of Sin / Antichrist could be revealed.  It would seem that Paul was making sure they understood that they would not go into that period of the Antichrist / GT / Seals / Bowls, etc.   The first seal in Revelation is the revealing of the Antichrist, and Paul wrote that the departure would happen before that could occur.

One can argue about whether it is departure or falling away in 2 Thessalonians 2, but a spiritual falling away has been going on since Genesis 3.  And clearly during Paul's time while he was alive.....

Acts 19:10 And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

2 Timothy 1:15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes

So it would seem that a "falling away" is nothing really unique and significant to hang one's hat on.  But a physical departure is.  Jerome thought so when he did the Latin Vulgate.  He used dicessio which means a physical departure.  And many English translations prior to the KJV also used "a departure", "the departure", or simply "departure".  

While I am firmly in the camp of thought that all who are in Messiah are redeemed and will ride the same bus out of here, I also have a image of when the removal happens, the pre-trib crowd might be doing a big "YES!" while those in the other camps will be doing a "Uh-Oh, didn't see that coming."   Just my goofy imagination running amok.  But could this also have a bearing on who will "love His appearing" and gain that crown Paul wrote about?  I don't know.  But it does cause one to wonder.

I am so eager for the removal that I jokingly tell friends that I go out in the yard and jump up and down for rapture practice.  I have a bizarre sense of humor.

But all of this division and debating will fall quickly away when we all celebrate together our redemption in the presence of Yeshua! Crowns or not.

Edited February 15, 2019 by OldCoot

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, OldCoot said:

You are indeed correct!  But, one key note about that.  At both of these comings, He actually comes to the surface of the earth. 

At the removal of the righteous, as Paul clearly stated, He doesn't come to the surface but the righteous are gathered to Him via the harpazo or forcibly snatching away.  And therein is where folks get things confused and think that the righteous must go thru the time of Jacob's trouble.  Especially so those who fall into the post trib camp.

Shalom, "OldCoot."

Again, why would Yeshua` come as far as the air and then BOUNCE back?! If God sends Yeshua` back, it's NOT for the "Christians!" It's to RESCUE ISRAEL! It's His ZEAL!

He TOLD us when He would return!

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Look, the reason for Yeshua`s return is NOT about Gentile believers! It's ALL ABOUT ISRAEL! NOT "the church." The word "church" is NEVER used as a conglomerate, "catch-all" word for all believers in Yeshua`! It was simply a Greek word that meant "a town meeting." It was often used in the plural, "churches."

The Bible is a book written ABOUT the children of Israel, BY children of Israel, and written FOR children of Israel! The only way Gentiles were added in was by GRAFTING them into the Olive Tree, as wild olive branches grafted CONTRARY to nature into a good Olive Tree! The children of Israel were the NATURAL branches, some lopped off because of unbelief, but NOT ALL! And, those lopped off can be grafted into their OWN Olive Tree again, and SHALL BE, if they "abide not still in unbelief!" ALL Israel, living and dead, shall be rescued!

They may be your enemies because of their rejection of the Gospel, that is, the Good News about God's Kingdom being available to them while the Messiah to be King was present and choosing to KILL the Messiah instead, but they are STILL the children of the Patriarchs and are therefore God's loved ones, and are STILL His elect - His chosen ones! They are only blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, but THEY are the ones who are still the FOCAL POINT of the Scriptures!

12 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Just like in the ancient Hebrew betrothal and marriage that Yeshua was fond of alluding to.  When the groom comes for his bride, He does not enter the house like He did when the betrothal agreement was sealed, but instead she comes out to him and they both return to his fathers house to enter the Chupah (wedding chamber) for 7 days to consummate the marriage.  And this is followed by the wedding feast when both the groom and the bride emerge as one.

It is also seen in the festivals and Isaiah hit on this one.  At Yom Teruah, the gates are opened and the righteous enter.  There are 7 days (one week... Oh I hear the Gabriel's words to Daniel as I write this) between the two days of Yom Teruah (Tishri 1&2) and the day of Atonement, Yom Kippur (Tishri 10).  At Yom Kippur, the gates are closed and those not righteous are sealed for destruction. Some of this is comes from Hebrew eschatology but is not in conflict with scripture.

And the culmination of these two festivals / rehearsals in Leviticus 23 are next on the agenda for the Messiah.  He most definitely fulfilled the spring feasts at His first coming.   That is why in Leviticus 23, the feasts are called Miqra, or rehearsals.   Obviously, rehearsals of the comings of the Messiah.

You carry this parable too far, and much of it is stretched to the breaking point (and BEYOND). Again, the "Church" doesn't exist! They are simply believers meeting in "churches," "ekkleesiai Kuriokon," "meeting places of the Lord." However, Gentile believers and believers who are children of Israel are to be "ONE NEW MAN" TOGETHER!

Ephesians 2:11-17 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (two) one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 
17 And came and preached peace to you (Gentiles) which were afar off, and to them (children of Israel) that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

God hasn't given a higher position to the "Church!" That was MADE UP by the Catholics back in the 200s when they were also VERY anti-Semetic! It just made sense to the clergy so they could claim to be the ONLY "Church" and control the laity! I'll say it again: God hasn't given a higher position to the "Church," and He won't single them out for some "Rapture" to some fictional place called "Heaven," while He leaves His MISHPACHAH - His FAMILY - here on earth for the Millennium! The Millennium is the nickname for the Millennial KINGDOM of the Messiah! So, pick one! Does the Messiah Yeshua` reign here on earth for a thousand years, absent from "Heaven," or will He be with His bride in "Heaven" for that thousand years, absent from HIS OWN Kingdom? Do either of those make any sense at all?

The answer is, He does NEITHER! We shall "reign with HIM!" Thus, both Gentile "Christians" and believing children of Israel (including Jews) shall be with Him HERE on this very Earth! He will be reigning over His Kingdom and we, as participants in the First Resurrection, shall be reigning along side of Him, subordinate to Him!

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls (air-breathing bodies) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 
5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[OldCoot]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Again, why would Yeshua` come as far as the air and then BOUNCE back?! If God sends Yeshua` back, it's NOT for the "Christians!" It's to RESCUE ISRAEL! It's His ZEAL!

You will have to ask Him one day why He decided to act like a Hebrew bridegroom and have the bride come out to meed Him.  

He indeed will rescue Israel, after they finally wake up from all the calamity they undergo during the tribulation period and petition for His return.  He made it quite clear in both OT and NT that they would have to petition for Him to return before He would.   So while indeed He has a zeal for Israel, He gave them the opportunity almost 2000 years ago. Now they have to make the first move.

But we are talking about two different entities here.  The Church is the bride of Yeshua, and also called the body of Messiah.   The Hebrew people are not, except those during the present age who join with Messiah and become members of the bride / body of Messiah.  Sound confusing.... bride/body... but when one remembers how the bride and groom are to be considered one flesh, the confusion goes away.

[OldCoot]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You carry this parable too far, and much of it is stretched to the breaking point (and BEYOND). Again, the "Church" doesn't exist! They are simply believers meeting in "churches," "ekkleesiai Kuriokon," "meeting places of the Lord." However, Gentile believers and believers who are children of Israel are to be "ONE NEW MAN" TOGETHER!

The "church" is the Body of messiah and His bride.  The Church just happens to meet in buildings often that uneducated people call churches. True enough that, in Messiah, both gentile and Hebrew are one.   But outside the Messiah, they are still distinct entities.  And those in the Messiah that are one, are also distinct.   There are those who are in Messiah (both Hebrew and Gentile), there are those who are Gentile, and there are those who are Hebrew.  3 distinct groups.   The groups that is in the Messiah are are the ekklesia and the bride and body of Messiah.  They are redeemed. There is no need for them to be driven to repentance via the tribulation period. The other two groups are the focus of the Tribulation period, especially the Hebrews.

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Now I do believe that there will be a reward for those who eagerly long for His appearing, and that would probably be related to holding a pre-trib position since all the other positions seem to be focused on the Antichrist and the other stuff going on. 

Does a pregnant woman look forward to holding her child or experiencing the birth pangs?  Holding her child, of course.  But she also realizes that in order to hold her child, she has to experience the birth pangs first.

I'm post trib and eagerly wait for His appearing.  I simply realize that we must experience birth pangs first.

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Does a pregnant woman look forward to holding her child or experiencing the birth pangs?  Holding her child, of course.  But she also realizes that in order to hold her child, she has to experience the birth pangs first.

I'm post trib and eagerly wait for His appearing.  I simply realize that we must experience birth pangs first.

Really not my focus on the Woman’s thoughts on these things.  The Church is not the Woman of Revelation 12, Jacob (Israel) is.    And the a Woman of Revelation 12 doesn’t get to hold her child, as it is caught up (harpazo-rapture-forcibly snatched away) as soon as it is born.

 

 

[OldCoot]

I really am not sure how this is so difficult for some.   Israel is the wife of Yahweh as expounded on throughout the Tanakh.   Israel is the mother of the Son (Yeshua the head - His body the Church) who will reign over the earth.  Yeshua (including His body the Church)  will reign with a rod of iron.  When Yeshua returns to rescue Israel an set up His Kingdom, both head and body are one, so the Body was joined to Him before that.   Just like the Bride and the Groom exit the marriage chamber (Chupah) as one flesh after spending 7 days / one week / 70th week of Daniel in the Chupah.

 

And why does the Body of Messiah need to go thru the Tribulation period?  Is not Yeshua (including His Body) the perfect Son of Yahweh? Do not we in the Body refer to Yahweh as our Father?

Edited February 15, 2019 by OldCoot
Spelling

[Littlelambseativy]

The woman who gives birth is Israel and the child is theMessiah/ Jesus. This has happened it is not future. 

As to why Jesus meets us in the air..whose domain is the air? .. the powers and principalities of the air? ...I believe Jesus meets the church, His Bride In the air....the domain of Stan and his angels...to escort us through Satan’ domain, Jesus and our enemy’s domain.

[OldCoot]

9 minutes ago, Littlelambseativy said:

The woman who gives birth is Israel and the child is theMessiah/ Jesus. This has happened it is not future. 

As to why Jesus meets us in the air..whose domain is the air? .. the powers and principalities of the air? ...I believe Jesus meets the church, His Bride In the air....the domain of Stan and his angels...to escort us through Satan’ domain, Jesus and our enemy’s domain.

Then could you show us all the passage that shows Yeshua was harpazo/raptured/caught up to the Throne of God as soon as He was born as Revelation 12 states?

It is Messiah, but His Body. Revelation 2 is very clear that the Redeemed will rule with a rod of iron along with Yeshua, so the Body is still in view in this passage.

Edited February 15, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

47 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Could you expound on when you believe that the woman gives birth in Rev 12? On one hand,  I hear you say that the child,  the body of messiah,  is when that church is caught up to heaven in the rapture.  And on the other hand,  I hear you say that it precedes the GT by some amount of time.   But doesn't Rev  show that it takes place at the same time as when Satan is cast out  of heaven, which takes place in the middle of the week.  Could you clarify? 

Blessings

The PuP 

We went thru that in earlier posts.  Revelation is not linear/chronological.  There a parenthetical passages that give a wider view from time to time.

let’s take a look at this from a different direction.  When is the False Messiah / Antichrist / Man of Sin revealed?

Edited February 15, 2019 by OldCoot