Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[OakWood]

13 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Wrong again! It is not about any single believer. It is about the TIME. We are at the end of this age and HARVEST is on God's mind. The rapture of the church is a one time thing. It was planned before the foundation of the earth.  Make no mistake, one day soon the trumpet will sound and Jesus will descend to the air, and the Bride of Christ will be caught up. 

I fully expect, if a 5th grader who has never read it before would read John 14, they would believe it just as pretrib believes it. One day, if I get the chance, I will try this test.  Yes, I did read it. But it does not matter HOW you came to believe as you do, you are simply mistaken. I cannot put it any nicer. God is pretrib and will certainly come pretrib to get His saints. Why? Because the "trib" is His wrath and we are not going to be here for His wrath. God has an escape plan!

ANY end time scenario is complicated because there are MANY scriptures that all must agree. And it was Paul that wrote of the rapture and according to Peter, Paul is hard to understand! 2 Thes. 2 is a great example.  However, 1 thes. 4 is fairly simple. 

Adding stuff that isn't really there  Please, be specific.   If I add, I want to KNOW I am adding.  I hope you understand, sometimes adding is required. Case in point: Paul's "last trump." What does Paul mean? Is it the last trump of a series? If so WHAT series? Is it the last trump of the church age? Every kind of tribber will give a different answer.  You would probably give a different answer than I would.  One thing I am convinced of: it is NOT the last trumpet in Revelation - yet many imagine it is. 

making assumptions  Again, some verses FORCE the reader to make assumptions. But a wise student of the bible will base these assumptions on other end time verses. Case in point: Posttribbers ASSUME the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture. Pretribbers will not assume that.  Another case in point: prewrathers ASSUME that the cosmic signs given in Matthew 24 are the very same signs as written at the 6th seal. They are mistaken.  By the way, I assume YOU ALSO make these same assumptions. 

Despite 2000 years of Christian martyrdom, you're the special privileged generation, the only ones to escape without any testing  Wrong again! EVERY believer gets tested. The truth is, God has not poured out His wrath on earth throughout the entire church age But soon HE WILL - but He has made a way of escape for this terminal generation.  He never promised a rapture for every calamity. He DID promise one rapture. I believe Him.  By the way, it is NO DIFFERENT NOW! There are beheadings going on. There are murders and Christians have been disappearing from Muslim nations now for years. So you are simply mistaken again.

U.S. Christians living in nice houses with nice cars whose worst ever trial in life was worrying about being late for work; are so privileged that God will give them unique treatment that nobody has ever had before  What is the matter with your thinking? There is probably more believers in Africa now than in the US. Soon their will be more in China - if the Lord tarries. The only difference is, we have been blessed more than many other believers. I will certainly not complain to God that He has blessed us! 

Jesus says that he who endures to the end, the same shall be saved  Yes, He surely did say this - but to WHOM is it pointed? It is to the Jew that is blinded for now.  The church will not have to "endure to the end" for we will be raptured. Of course, if you just WANT  to endure, I am sure God will leave you behind.  He has a way of giving us the desires of our heart! You amaze me!

Nobody ever comes to the conclusion that there is a pre-Trib rapture unless they are pre-programmed to believe it. this is a theory that has been proven wrong over and over. It is scriptural. THAT is why many believe it. Don't even imagine you have a corner on bible understanding. Someone said it was only Americans that believe a pretrib rapture. So I found 50 or so people in Africa - different nations - and asked them if they believed in a pretrib rapture. Many of them (Most of them) DID. Their reason: "It is scriptural." 

It seems then, that even from your background, you read with preconceived glasses. What else can it be if others read the same text and come to a different conclusion?

If you've never heard of it, you'll never assume it  Again, just your theory. Millions believe it because they study their bible. 

Post-Trib and to some extent Mid-Trib are the obvious conclusions of reading the text.   Not when I read it!  Not when millions of others read it. I really wonder what text you would put first here. Probably Matthew 24. 

I am CERTAINLY unwilling to let go of the truth and swallow a lie!   

One thing I have come to a conclusion about: pretribbers  - those that study to show themselves approved - are very good at their study. 

Why do I say that? A beginning Christian - one that just God born again yesterday, could hear two people discussing the rapture timing, and he might say, "that's so easy: look at Matthew 24: anyone can see the gathering comes after the days of tribulation." So another posttribber is born!  It may be 30 years later that he or she discovers that the gathering in Matthew 24 gathers from heaven!

Are you still here? I thought you might have been raptured by now. Well never mind, tomorrow maybe.... or the day after.... perhaps next week.

And by the way... you're right. Millions do believe in the pre-Trib rapture, because they study the Bible... and then they extrapolate, add, divide, multiply, twist and flourish what they have read. And not only that, they're the only ones who can really understand what scriptures say, because after all they belong to the 'special' generation. Not like those billions of ignorant Christians who came before them such as Peter, John, John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley and any other post-Trib ignoramuses. who were stupid enough to suffer for their faith instead of chilling out and waiting for God to send them a free taxicab to hotel paradise.

As I have already said... the millions of pre-Tribbers who do study the Bible have also been previously fed the pre-Trib narrative. The millions of other believers who also study the Bible have not been fed any previous narrative.

There's no such thing as post-Trib doctrine. Post-Trib is the conclusion that you come to if you read scripture without pride and let the Holy Spirit be your guide.

But it doesn't really matter, we can always continue this discussion another day - perhaps next month or next year, or maybe after the Tribulation has started. Because there's a very good chance you're still going to be here.

[Retrobyter]

20 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

So..please tell us: what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Is this a non-sequitur? 

Shalom, iamlamad.

No, it's not. See, when one says, "salvation" today, many Christians automatically assume that one is talking about God's justification of an individual. That's NOT what the word means in prophecy! In prophecy, the usage of the word "salvation" ("hayshuw`aah" in Hebrew; "soozoo" [where "oo" represents an omega] in Greek) refers to God's rescue or deliverance of the children of Israel through His Messiah!

THEREFORE, it is VERY important that you understand the meaning of this word in the Scriptures so you are not under the delusion that the Scriptures are talking about one's personal justification by God!

[iamlamad]

11 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

No, it's not. See, when one says, "salvation" today, many Christians automatically assume that one is talking about God's justification of an individual. That's NOT what the word means in prophecy! In prophecy, the usage of the word "salvation" ("hayshuw`aah" in Hebrew; "soozoo" [where "oo" represents an omega] in Greek) refers to God's rescue or deliverance of the children of Israel through His Messiah!

THEREFORE, it is VERY important that you understand the meaning of this word in the Scriptures so you are not under the delusion that the Scriptures are talking about one's personal justification by God!

So, can you give us an example of "salvation" in the New Testament that is prophecy?

[iamlamad]

17 minutes ago, OakWood said:

Are you still here? I thought you might have been raptured by now. Well never mind, tomorrow maybe.... or the day after.... perhaps next week.

And by the way... you're right. Millions do believe in the pre-Trib rapture, because they study the Bible... and then they extrapolate, add, divide, multiply, twist and flourish what they have read. And not only that, they're the only ones who can really understand what scriptures say, because after all they belong to the 'special' generation. Not like those billions of ignorant Christians who came before them such as Peter, John, John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley and any other post-Trib ignoramuses. who were stupid enough to suffer for their faith instead of chilling out and waiting for God to send them a free taxicab to hotel paradise.

As I have already said... the millions of pre-Tribbers who do study the Bible have also been previously fed the pre-Trib narrative. The millions of other believers who also study the Bible have not been fed any previous narrative.

There's no such thing as post-Trib doctrine. Post-Trib is the conclusion that you come to if you read scripture without pride and let the Holy Spirit be your guide.

But it doesn't really matter, we can always continue this discussion another day - perhaps next month or next year, or maybe after the Tribulation has started. Because there's a very good chance you're still going to be here.

No, I think you are talking about prewrathers and posttribbers! They are experts and mis-understanding scripture. It is why they are not pretribbers.  

I will say this: you have a very vivid imagination! Pretribbers in China got it from the bible.  Post trib is what a new believer might believe after reading Matthew 24 the first time. A real student of the bible would look to PAUL only for the timing of the rapture. They would know HE got the revelation of the rapture. 

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

3 hours ago, OakWood said:

I'm not against pre-Trib. As I already said... I'd never heard of either. Pre-Trib sounds great to me. I wish it was true, but it isn't. But typically you accuse me of being biased. You obviously didn't read what I had written, or like most pre-Tribbers completely ignored it.

And your explanation is exactly what I claimed; over-complicated. Adding stuff that isn't really there, and making assumptions. For example, the so-called raptured church that John is supposed to have seen, well all I can say is.: We're not the only Christians, you know...... what about the ones that have lived for the last two thousand years or so? But in typical pre-Trib mindset, "it's all about you".

 

Despite 2000 years of Christian martyrdom, you're the special privileged generation, the only ones to escape without any testing. The apostle Peter suffered on the cross, Tyndale was burned at the stake for his faith. Thousands of saints were tortured and murdered under the inquisition, Christians were thrown to the lions by Nero, but U.S. Christians living in nice houses with nice cars whose worst ever trial in life was worrying about being late for work; are so privileged that God will give them unique treatment that nobody has ever had before. No beheadings for them, or even struggling to buy or sell; not  for this snowflake generation.

Jesus says that he who endures to the end, the same shall be saved. But what exactly is there to endure when you're up in the sky, sipping nectar cocktails and having a grandstand view of the entire show?

Nobody ever comes to the conclusion that there is a pre-Trib rapture unless they are pre-programmed to believe it. If you've never heard of it, you'll never assume it. Whereas Post-Trib and to some extent Mid-Trib are the obvious conclusions of reading the text. Yet despite my explanation you proved my point. Pre-Tribbers are unwilling to let go. Thank you for proving me right.

Just wondering what you make of Isaiah 57:1? This appears right before the tribulation judgments.

[Retrobyter]

25 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Even with our resurrection bodies, we will STILL be spirit beings possessing a soul. Perhaps you should study the New Testament on soul!  It is used at least two ways in scripture. OF COURSE all will be resurrected one day....but believers in Christ will be first. 

Since you mention the Old Testament saints, please, show us in Revelation when THEIR resurrection is.

Shalom, iamlamad.

Nope. BEING our Resurrection bodies, we SHALL BE wind-blasting ("spiritual") air-breathers ("souls"). Take the time to CAREFULLY investigate 1 Corinthians 15:35-49, and use study helps to investigate in the Greek.

The New Testament uses the words "soul" and "spirit" correctly, but quite often, modern theologs MISINTERPRET, MISAPPLY, and MISUSE the New Testament passages, and have WARPED DEFINITIONS of the words "soul" and "spirit" within those NT passages!

---

Sure, the resurrection of the OT saints shall be at the same time as that of the NT saints! There are several keys in Revelation, but as to the timing, well, that depends on how much you count as part of the resurrection. For instance, the sun, moon, and stars signs that precede the resurrection stem from Revelation 6:12 through 9:12, from the opening of the sixth seal to the blowing of the fifth trumpet.

We see the sealing of the 144,000 children of Israel (12,000 per tribe) in Rev. 7:4-8, and they would be part of the "Great Multitude" standing before the throne in 7:9-17. They are already standing (implying feet and legs), having palm branches in their hands, and arrayed in white robes (implying physical bodies).

They are said to have come out of tribulation, washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, in 7:14-16.

It's at the seventh trumpet in 11:15-19 that gives the Messiah His authority to reign, and the beast makes war with the saints in chapter 13.

In Rev. 14:1-5, particularly verse 3, the 144,000 children of Israel are said to be "redeemed (bought back) from the earth (the ground)," being "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" in verse 4.

But, it's the HARVEST of the earth in 14:14-16 that, I believe, is the ACTUAL Resurrection of all the rest! And, THIS is when the "Rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is and where our transformation of 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 is!

Then, in 15:3, we hear the conquerors standing on the sea (laver) of glass mingled with fire sing the song of Moses! And who better to lead them, than Mosheh ("Moses") and Miryam themselves?!

In 17:14, they who are with the Messiah at that time (which should at least include the 144,000) are "called, and chosen, and faithful (trustworthy)."

The saints (holy ones), including the prophets, rejoice over the fall of Babylon in 18:20, and their blood was found in her in 18:24.

The armies in the sky that followed the Messiah on white horses were clothed in white and clean, fine linen, in 19:14, and the Messiah Yeshua` extends His rulership over His enemies in 19:15, declared "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" in verse 16.

Finally, in 20:4-6, they will be among those who reign with the Messiah, and they will continue to reign in the New Earth in 22:5. 

I believe this covers the book. See, the vials (bowls) of wrath are poured out at the command of the Messiah who has already taken control of the situation and was given His authority to reign back in chapter 11!

That's how I believe Yochanan wrote the book of the Revelation of Yeshua` haMashiyach.

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, OldCoot said:

But the implication is there, because the dragon is waiting to devour the child as soon as it is born the verse preceding.  The idea of the child being caught up as it is born is there.

An implication carries as much meaning to this discussion as sand does to the thirsty. And no, the idea is not there. The only idea is the man child IS caught up, non specific as to when.

23 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Revelation 12:4 ........And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.

And what does this have to do with being caught up? Nothing. The dragon was READY TO DEVOUR when Christ was born. This is not synonymous with being caught up to heaven.

23 hours ago, OldCoot said:

And being a collective is not faulty logic.  Are not the redeemed (plural) the Body of Messiah (singular)?   Does not the Redeemed (plural) in the Body (singular) refer to Yahweh as the Father?   

.Doubt casting argument aside scripture describes a singular particular son born of a woman. If it were a collective 'anthropos' would have been a better choice but the Lord of us all chose 'arren', which is an adjective describing a person that share the same nature as their Father. It's singular and it's Jesus alone that is in view here if one takes all the evidence from verse 1-5 into consideration.

23 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Well, I am not certain if the pre-trib camp invented this idea. It was espoused by many Bible expositors and scholars long before Darby showed up, that is, if Darby is the source of the pre-trib movement as many content.   I have found this idea in the writings of Theodore Beza (Bena Bible and Geneva Bible contributor) in the 1500's.  Darby didn't get his theological motor in gear till almost 3 centuries later.

And what makes them correct? What assurances do we have these men got it right? The proof is in the pudding and the Greek text disputes any such claims. I mean, are we supposed to think the earlier an idea came to the fore the more insightful or truthful? 

23 hours ago, OldCoot said:

It is a somewhat of a weird idea that the Body of Messiah has to go thru the tribulation period though.   Is not Yeshua the perfect Son of Yahweh?  And by extension, would not His body also be perfect?   After all, the only people that make up the Body of Messiah are those that have been justified and made righteous by the Blood of the Lamb.  What is it about the Body of the Son of God that needs to go thru that period?

This is just an attempt at escape through rationalization. You want it to be so, conjuring arguments that play on emotion rather than reality. The Apostles all died, some in terrible fashion, did we hear them make these same arguments? No. The opposite is true. The arguments of the Apostles are that to suffer and die for Jesus is glory and righteousness.

And where is this promised 'rapture' to escape tribulation for the 100,000 that die for Christ every year? Or is it just western Christian churches that revel in their self proclaimed purity who will experience this?

 

 

23 hours ago, OldCoot said:

It would seem that there is a focus problem going on.  Paul stated that there is a crown of righteousness for those that are looking for Yeshua's appearing.  But it seems that many supposed Christians are focused more on looking for the Antichrist.   That's ok.  All in the redeemed get the same bus ride out of here.  And all this debate will fall away behind us as we celebrate the redemption and deliverance of the Messiah face to face.

So you are of the opinion that looking for Jesus appearing is only valid if that appearing comes at the time you designate?  It's not possible for Jesus to appear at any time? So if a person is sincerely looking for Jesus to appear during tribulation, they won't get a crown? Or if a person is looking for Jesus after tribulation? No crown for them? The only sincere looking for Jesus can occur as pretrib claims? Poppycock! Balderdash!

Many are looking for the beast to arrive as we know it's the beast first, then Jesus. We are preparing for the battle we know is coming and readying for the glorious return of the Savior to avenge us and redeem us. And I guarantee there can be no more sincere looking and waiting for salvation than when one is in the midst of trouble.

[OldCoot]

Maybe this lays it out a little bit better. Scripture references just shown not posted at length to keep from turning this post into a book.  In spirit of fair disclosure and honesty, these points are not mine.  They are a more concise set points that I use them here.  I am not into plagiarizing another brother's material.   Gary over at Unsealed.org put these points out in an article a while back.

 

1. A singular male child.  Jesus was clearly a singular male child, but what people frequently fail to notice is that the Church is at least three times figuratively called a singular man, as well (Ephesians 2:15, 4:13, Galatians 3:29).  Furthermore, the Church is compared to Christ's mystical, corporate "body" more often than it is compared to other metaphors like a "bride" or "temple".  See here.

 

2. The child is called teknon. The raptured child in Revelation 12:5 is called both teknon (informal child) and huios (son of honor), which is strange considering that Jesus is exclusively called huios in the Scriptures, except on a single occasion by his mother (Luke 2:48).  In addition, the Apostle John uses teknon to refer to the Church as the children of God in his first epistle (1 John 3:1-2, 10, 5:2), and uses huios exclusively to refer to Christ in his gospel and first epistle (John 1:49, 59, 3:13, 16, 5:19, 14:13, 1 John 3:8, 4:15, 5:5, 5:20).  To assume John is suddenly changing course in Revelation 12 would be contrary to all evidence.

 

3. The child is born before the woman goes into labor.  Revelation 12:5 is connected directly to Isaiah 66:7, which says this corporate baby is born before Israel goes into labor.  In other words, a pre-tribulational delivery.  You can read more about this here.  The Church has debated whether or not Mary had labor pains since earliest times, but Scripture seems to be silent on the subject.  Luke 2:6 does indicate that the time for the baby to be born had come.  This might indicate contractions and birth pains.  In any case, with nothing definitely saying she did not have labor pains, the preponderance of evidence would seem to indicate Mary was not free from the same curse that has been on all women since Genesis 3:16.

 

4. The prophecy in Revelation 12 is yet future.  Revelation 1:1 clearly lays out the purpose of the book, which is to tell the saints what will happen in the future.  Revelation 4:1 drives this point home even further, indicating that everything from Revelation 4:1-on is yet to occur.

 

5. The child will rule with a rod of iron.  Revelation 12:5 says that the male child "will rule all the nations with a rod of iron."  It is obvious enough that Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Psalm 2:7-9, Revelation 19:15),  but Revelation 2:26-27 informs us that the Church is afforded this honor, as well.

 

6. The child is conceived in and born out of Israel.  Jesus was conceived in Nazareth and born in Bethlehem.  Both are towns in Israel.  The Church was conceived (or some might say "born") in Jerusalem on Pentecost around AD 33.  Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.  The corporate birth of the Church occurs from "heavenly Jerusalem" (Galatians 4:26-27).

 

7.  The child is in imminent danger from satan's world system.  This criterion presents a significant challenge to those who believe Revelation 12 is speaking about Christ.  Christ was in no danger from satan before His ascension and neither was He in danger before His death (Matthew 26:53, John 2:19, 5:26, 10:18, Philippians 2:8).

 

8. The child is raptured to God's throne. The male child is raptured in Revelation 12:5.  The Greek word used is harpazo, which means "caught up" or "snatched up" and it is the word used for the rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.  Every single mention of Jesus' ascension is described using the words epairo or anabaino, both of which indicate a gradual rising (like climbing a mountain), not a quick and violent snatching away (harpazo).  Revelation 12:5 is clearly connected to the rapture event.

 

 

39 minutes ago, Diaste said:

So you are of the opinion that looking for Jesus appearing is only valid if that appearing comes at the time you designate?  It's not possible for Jesus to appear at any time? So if a person is sincerely looking for Jesus to appear during tribulation, they won't get a crown? Or if a person is looking for Jesus after tribulation? No crown for them? The only sincere looking for Jesus can occur as pretrib claims? Poppycock! Balderdash!

 Many are looking for the beast to arrive as we know it's the beast first, then Jesus. We are preparing for the battle we know is coming and readying for the glorious return of the Savior to avenge us and redeem us. And I guarantee there can be no more sincere looking and waiting for salvation than when one is in the midst of trouble.

I made no such assertion.   I stated the simple basic fact that Paul says there is a crown of righteousness for those who are looking for Messiah's appearing.  It would suggest that we really should not waste a lot of time looking forward to the Antichrist's appearing.   There doesn't seem to be any reward for those who  are able to identify the Antichrist before or at his appearing.   When a reward is involved, it seems to the Lord's way of putting an emphasis on something.  And that is looking for the Lord's appearing to gather the redeemed. 

You may not like that as it might disrupt your world view on this stuff. Take it up with Paul. He wrote it.

Edited February 17, 2019 by OldCoot
Spelling

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Nope. BEING our Resurrection bodies, we SHALL BE wind-blasting ("spiritual") air-breathers ("souls"). Take the time to CAREFULLY investigate 1 Corinthians 15:35-49, and use study helps to investigate in the Greek.

The New Testament uses the words "soul" and "spirit" correctly, but quite often, modern theologs MISINTERPRET, MISAPPLY, and MISUSE the New Testament passages, and have WARPED DEFINITIONS of the words "soul" and "spirit" within those NT passages!

---

Sure, the resurrection of the OT saints shall be at the same time as that of the NT saints! There are several keys in Revelation, but as to the timing, well, that depends on how much you count as part of the resurrection. For instance, the sun, moon, and stars signs that precede the resurrection stem from Revelation 6:12 through 9:12, from the opening of the sixth seal to the blowing of the fifth trumpet.

We see the sealing of the 144,000 children of Israel (12,000 per tribe) in Rev. 7:4-8, and they would be part of the "Great Multitude" standing before the throne in 7:9-17. They are already standing (implying feet and legs), having palm branches in their hands, and arrayed in white robes (implying physical bodies).

They are said to have come out of tribulation, washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, in 7:14-16.

It's at the seventh trumpet in 11:15-19 that gives the Messiah His authority to reign, and the beast makes war with the saints in chapter 13.

In Rev. 14:1-5, particularly verse 3, the 144,000 children of Israel are said to be "redeemed (bought back) from the earth (the ground)," being "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" in verse 4.

But, it's the HARVEST of the earth in 14:14-16 that, I believe, is the ACTUAL Resurrection of all the rest! And, THIS is when the "Rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is and where our transformation of 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 is!

Then, in 15:3, we hear the conquerors standing on the sea (laver) of glass mingled with fire sing the song of Moses! And who better to lead them, than Mosheh ("Moses") and Miryam themselves?!

In 17:14, they who are with the Messiah at that time (which should at least include the 144,000) are "called, and chosen, and faithful (trustworthy)."

The saints (holy ones), including the prophets, rejoice over the fall of Babylon in 18:20, and their blood was found in her in 18:24.

The armies in the sky that followed the Messiah on white horses were clothed in white and clean, fine linen, in 19:14, and the Messiah Yeshua` extends His rulership over His enemies in 19:15, declared "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" in verse 16.

Finally, in 20:4-6, they will be among those who reign with the Messiah, and they will continue to reign in the New Earth in 22:5. 

I believe this covers the book. See, the vials (bowls) of wrath are poured out at the command of the Messiah who has already taken control of the situation and was given His authority to reign back in chapter 11!

That's how I believe Yochanan wrote the book of the Revelation of Yeshua` haMashiyach.

You are mistaken (as usual). The rapture is ONLY for those "In Christ." NONE of the Old Testament saints died "In Christ" unless they were in His generation and believed He was their Messiah. That rules out 99.99999% of them. Their resurrection is on "the last day." That is, if you believe John.  Start out wrong, and you will probably end wrong.

You do know, Paul separated "spirit, soul, and body." They are three distinct entities, just as God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: three different entities in one supreme being, and just like us (Made in His image), Soul (Our Father God) Body (the Lord Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of God. You do know we are created in His image and after His likeness?

they [the 144,000] would be part of the "Great Multitude" standing before the throne in 7:9-17  No, another mistake.  They are still on earth until chapter 14, which is just after the midpoint of the week. The great crowd, too large to number, is the just raptured church, all with resurrection bodies. The 144,000 will follow later, after the midpoint.

They are said to have come out of tribulation  God considers the church age as great tribulation: they came out of the world during the church age, one by one as they were born again.

Your timing of the rapture is in error also. For rapture timing, we can only follow what Paul wrote. He received the revelation of the rapture. HIS timing is just before God's wrath begins at the start of the Day of the Lord. In Revelation that would be just before the 6th seal. That is why they are seen in heaven just after the 6th seal. 

We are always going to disagree.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

The thing that you miss is that one result of the 6th seal is the creation will experience the shaking of the heavens & the earth bringing forth the kingdom of God: 

Verse list:    
Heb 12:26-28 KJV    Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. WHEREFORE we RECEIVING a KINGDOM which CANNOT be MOVED, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

This is a forthcoming one time event that finds its fulfilment in all these verses: 

Verse list:    
Joe 3:16-17 KJV    The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Joe 2:11 KJV    And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Amo 1:2 KJV    And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.

Jer 25:29-31 KJV    For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.

Hag 2:21-23 KJV    Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.

Rev 6:12-14 KJV    And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 12:9-10 KJV    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

All of that is a product of the little horns attack on Jerusalem,  that initiated the day of wrath upon Israel. I know that is a lot of scriptures to re-read.   But it brings us to one more substantial reading:

Verse list:    
Zec 14:1-11 KJV    Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. And men shall dwell in it, AND THERE SHALL  BE NO MORE UTTER DESTRUCTION; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Armageddon takes place more than 50 miles from Jerusalem.   There is no "Armageddon at Jerusalem", as confirmed by this: 

*[[Rev 14:20]] KJV* And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Once the 7th trumpet sounds,  "there will be no more utter destruction"in Jerusalem.

As far as the last part of your question goes,  unless all of the law of the moedim have been fulfilled,  none has passed away.   The requirement found in the law for all of Israel to keep the feasts of unleavened bread,  weeks and Tabernacles IN JERUSALEM,  shall be fulfilled in the times of the end.   From the 6th day of unleavened bread when the 6th seal is opened,  UNTIL the day of Atonement 3.5 years later is 1260 in most years.   I know this has gotten very long,  so let me leaves you with one more long reading of scripture: 

Verse list:    
Isa 31:5-7 KJV    As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and PASSING OVER he will preserve it. Turn ye unto him from whom the children of Israel have deeply revolted. For in that day every man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which your own hands have made unto you for a sin.

[Isa 2:19-21 KJV    And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
Rev 6:15-17 KJV    And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?]

Isa 31:8-9 KJV    Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the sword, and his young men shall be discomfited. And he shall PASS OVER to his strong hold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.

If you read al of this,  (which I seriously doubt)  you should be able to put together that: 

The day of the Lord's wrath upon Jerusalem will begin on some future Passover. 

Blessings

The PuP 

You were doing just fine, quoting scripture, until you wrote this:  'All of that is a product of the little horns attack on Jerusalem,"

WHERE in Revelation is this "attack" on Jerusalem?