Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[Spock]

6 minutes ago, Cletus said:

 

He will raise us up when???  Joh 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

if there be more days beyond when Jesus takes us... then Gods word is not truthful.  this is why pretrib logic fails. 

 Good rebuttal mate.

okay, “Last day” discussion time.....

are you saying the last day has to be the day Christ returns to planet earth to set up his MK? 

Can it mean something different? 

For example, can it be the last day of the church age? 

[Jostler]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

I read Amos 8 and Psalm 149 and I have no idea what you see. I don’t see a dual purpose for Amos, except last 5 verses in chapter 9.....just talking about Assyria taking Israel over in 722 BC. 

man...Amos 8 was  a typo.   Amos 3 was what I should have typed  ?   Particularly verse 7.  I am sorry I didn't catch that.  I'll correct it in the original post.

Now I gotta go read Chapter 8 and see what you looked at

Edited February 17, 2019 by Jostler

[Spock]

10 minutes ago, Cletus said:

 

tribulation saints is not found in the bible, it is a teaching of man.   show me one scripture in the bible that says tribulation saints and i will recant.  let me save you some time though... its not in there. 

 

Tribulation Saints discussion time....

i agree with you, I doubt I can find that exact description but assuming there is a pre Trib rapture, I’m sure you would agree people will be turning to Christ during the first half of the week before the abomination. Yes? 

So why not give them a description?  They are living in the Trib period and have now turned to a faith in Christ.  I dont see anything wrong even though not clearly delineated in the Bible.  Heck, the trinity is not clearly set forth in the Bible either. 

The two witnesses and possibly the 144,000 Jews will be also witnessing to the world. 

rev 12:17 seems close, “ and the dragon was enraged with the woman and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. “ 

[Spock]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

We each have a job.  I'll let you focus on the beast and I'll focus on Yeshua.  Then we both will be happy.

Lol. Good rebuttal. I hope you are right but until I get the timing of the 6th seal down, I’m still uncertain. 

If 6th seal is before 70th week, you are right, won’t be seeing the beast.  However, if 6th seal is opened during 70th week, I may .....

[Spock]

5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Maybe this lays it out a little bit better. Scripture references just shown not posted at length to keep from turning this post into a book.  In spirit of fair disclosure and honesty, these points are not mine.  They are a more concise set points that I use them here.  I am not into plagiarizing another brother's material.   Gary over at Unsealed.org put these points out in an article a while back.

 

1. A singular male child.  Jesus was clearly a singular male child, but what people frequently fail to notice is that the Church is at least three times figuratively called a singular man, as well (Ephesians 2:15, 4:13, Galatians 3:29).  Furthermore, the Church is compared to Christ's mystical, corporate "body" more often than it is compared to other metaphors like a "bride" or "temple".  See here.

 

2. The child is called teknon. The raptured child in Revelation 12:5 is called both teknon (informal child) and huios (son of honor), which is strange considering that Jesus is exclusively called huios in the Scriptures, except on a single occasion by his mother (Luke 2:48).  In addition, the Apostle John uses teknon to refer to the Church as the children of God in his first epistle (1 John 3:1-2, 10, 5:2), and uses huios exclusively to refer to Christ in his gospel and first epistle (John 1:49, 59, 3:13, 16, 5:19, 14:13, 1 John 3:8, 4:15, 5:5, 5:20).  To assume John is suddenly changing course in Revelation 12 would be contrary to all evidence.

 

3. The child is born before the woman goes into labor.  Revelation 12:5 is connected directly to Isaiah 66:7, which says this corporate baby is born before Israel goes into labor.  In other words, a pre-tribulational delivery.  You can read more about this here.  The Church has debated whether or not Mary had labor pains since earliest times, but Scripture seems to be silent on the subject.  Luke 2:6 does indicate that the time for the baby to be born had come.  This might indicate contractions and birth pains.  In any case, with nothing definitely saying she did not have labor pains, the preponderance of evidence would seem to indicate Mary was not free from the same curse that has been on all women since Genesis 3:16.

 

4. The prophecy in Revelation 12 is yet future.  Revelation 1:1 clearly lays out the purpose of the book, which is to tell the saints what will happen in the future.  Revelation 4:1 drives this point home even further, indicating that everything from Revelation 4:1-on is yet to occur.

 

5. The child will rule with a rod of iron.  Revelation 12:5 says that the male child "will rule all the nations with a rod of iron."  It is obvious enough that Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Psalm 2:7-9, Revelation 19:15),  but Revelation 2:26-27 informs us that the Church is afforded this honor, as well.

 

6. The child is conceived in and born out of Israel.  Jesus was conceived in Nazareth and born in Bethlehem.  Both are towns in Israel.  The Church was conceived (or some might say "born") in Jerusalem on Pentecost around AD 33.  Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.  The corporate birth of the Church occurs from "heavenly Jerusalem" (Galatians 4:26-27).

 

7.  The child is in imminent danger from satan's world system.  This criterion presents a significant challenge to those who believe Revelation 12 is speaking about Christ.  Christ was in no danger from satan before His ascension and neither was He in danger before His death (Matthew 26:53, John 2:19, 5:26, 10:18, Philippians 2:8).

 

8. The child is raptured to God's throne. The male child is raptured in Revelation 12:5.  The Greek word used is harpazo, which means "caught up" or "snatched up" and it is the word used for the rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.  Every single mention of Jesus' ascension is described using the words epairo or anabaino, both of which indicate a gradual rising (like climbing a mountain), not a quick and violent snatching away (harpazo).  Revelation 12:5 is clearly connected to the rapture event.

 

 

I made no such assertion.   I stated the simple basic fact that Paul says there is a crown of righteousness for those who are looking for Messiah's appearing.  It would suggest that we really should not waste a lot of time looking forward to the Antichrist's appearing.   There doesn't seem to be any reward for those who  are able to identify the Antichrist before or at his appearing.   When a reward is involved, it seems to the Lord's way of putting an emphasis on something.  And that is looking for the Lord's appearing to gather the redeemed. 

You may not like that as it might disrupt your world view on this stuff. Take it up with Paul. He wrote it.

This is good stuff coot.  

Ovviously Jesus was not harpazoed (snatched up) to Heaven like the church will be. Yes, I do see the rapture of the church in Rev 12:5. I kind of visualize his ascension as being a slow roll upward, waving and blowing kisses to his disciples. After all, Jesus does love his body! 

[Spock]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

The Constitution of the U.S. was not made with the government either, but with the people.  The Government is just a product of that Constitution.

Likewise, the New Covenant is with Israel as Jeremiah states, but the church is a product of that Covenant. Remember, Paul is quite clear that all of Israel are not Israel.  And the Messiah comes from Israel, both as the head, Yeshua, but also the Body, the church. 

 

Hi coot. I don’t know how you got my name associated with this quote. I don’t recall saying it. 

I believe the New covenant Jesus initiated began right then and it affects all who believe and did away with the conditional Mosaic Covenant, which was rendered obsolete.  Jesus is the only sacrificial lamb necessary to,remove sin. No more blood of goats and sheep. 

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Cletus said:

tribulation saints is not found in the bible, it is a teaching of man.   show me one scripture in the bible that says tribulation saints and i will recant.  let me save you some time though... its not in there. 

 

I'll do one better.... find the word Trinity or Triune God in the Bible.   You can't.  I'll save you some time... it's not in there.  Some would say that Rapture isn't in the Bible, but that just means they don't have a Latin Bible. It is there in the Latin Bible.  And much to the chagrin of some, the word dispensation is found in the Bible.  Oh the horror of it all!      And from Paul no less!   At least 5 times in the 1599 Geneva Bible.  

There are concepts that are alluded to in scripture, and just because the actual words are not used, the concepts comes thru nonetheless.   

There were saints prior to the church coming into being at Shavuot after Yeshua's death.   Matthew 27 states that immediately after Yeshua's resurrection, the saints who had died came out of the graves.  Many early church writers who were familiar with the Apostles or their disciples wrote that these saints were taken to the Father by Yeshua.  

There can indeed be saints out of the Tribulation period even with the idea of the redeemed up to the Tribulation being removed prior to the start of those events.     As was mentioned, the 144,000 seem to be a part of that group.

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Cletus said:

however tribulation saints is not one of them.  once the groom comes the door is shut... there is a concept that comes thru. 

Since you brought up the door is shut, when is the door/gate opened?   There is indeed scripture than talks about that. 

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Cletus said:

the bible does indeed clarify the trnity.  Father, The Word, And The Holy Ghost... or The Father, The Son, and Holy Spirit. 

this thread is not the place for that really.  it would be nice if pre tribbers could stay on topic, which is why pre trib logic fails.  which i have shown over and over in this thread... and here we have whats called misdirection.  if you cant prove it you bring up a whole other topic to try and validate it.  but it still dont hold water. 

once the groom comes... the door is shut.  no more prayers or intercessory pleas will be heard... do you not understand the model from the OT temple?  no one is allowed to enter...  the mercy seat is in the holy of holys.  

 

But you stated that tribulation saints is not mentioned. Neither is trinity.  The concept of the trinity is there. and so is the concept of the tribulation saints.  Just like the concept of the rapture and a host of other things that are not "mentioned" by name in scripture.

[JoeCanada]

5 hours ago, Spock said:

Greetings my brother in Canada (I hope you are a Habs fan and not a Leafs fan). ?

i am now open  to your logic here in that the Church and Israel do not necessarily have to be mutually exclusive groups, and there there can be an overlapping going on. Therefore, I would agree, THIS argument (that the 70th week is ONLY. A time for Jacobs trouble) May be deficient. 

However, there may be other reasons to support a pre Trib rapture other than this one. But I agree, this argument is open for discussion. 

I enjoyed reading this starting post and am looking forward to seeing how the discussion progresses. I myself am reevaluating what I believe so this thread should help me in that. Cheers, Spock

Hi Spock,

Welcome to the discussion. Nope, not a Leafs fan, though I was one for many years. Since moving to the West Coast in 1989, I became a Vancouver Canucks fan.

It's always good to re-evaluate ones understanding of Scripture. That's what a good Berean does, checks daily to see if a teaching lines up with God's Word. We see thru a glass darkly, and as God sheds more light on His Word, then we begin to see a bit more clearly. I'm not too dogmatic on any position, though I lean very heavily towards pre-wrath, which is after the tribulation, before the Wrath of God, which is between the 6th and 7th seal. After the celestial/terrestrial event of Joel 2:31-32. 

I invite you to read Steve Conleys paper on Why pre-trib logic fails. I'll post it here. Credit to Steve. Also find the discussion on "Defense of the pre-trib rapture, page 114, where Steve again lays out their misunderstandings.

Unfortunately, I won't be available for further discussions until after Feb 27th. I'm on vacation until then. Yay!

Posted February 5 (edited)

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

 

The topic here is "Why pretrib logic fails." On page 114 of the topic "Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture," I began addressing a list of pre-trib misunderstandings. I began with the false teaching of imminence. I will here deal with a few more pre-trib misunderstandings on the list.

 

How does one defend the indefensible?

 

You start by stating assumptions as fact. You use these assumptions to build a layered fortress through circular reasoning. This system of circular reasoning, in the minds of the errant, is used to twist even the most explicit of Biblical statements. That which is most plain and clear must mean something different than it obviously says or else the whole system, made up of what is thought to be orthodox truth, collapses. Some of these misunderstandings (I'm being charitable) which are thought to be orthodox are:

 

1) Imminence, Christ could come secretly at any moment to rapture His church.

2) The seventieth week is the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord. 

3) God has to rapture the church before he can deal with the Jews.

4) God uses the Beast as an instrument of His wrath upon the tribulation saints.

5) God's wrath begins with the opening of the first seal.

6) The 144,000 are Jewish evangelists who bring about the greatest revival in history.

7) The great tribulation is for the Jews, the church will not be present.

 

And there are many more.

 

These tenants of pretribulationism are all interdependent upon each other. The whole system is built upon misunderstandings and assumed inferences predicated upon those misunderstandings. If one falls, they all fall. But as we have heard concerning some corporations or organizations, "they are too big to fail." So like those, pretribulationism is propped up by denominational leaders and those teachers who would lose face were they to correct their teaching. Many of these, upon being exposed, instead of repenting, double down and go to greater lengths in the wresting of the Scriptures. They are forever finding new, so-called, references to a pre-trib rapture that they can publish in books to satisfy the itching ears of those who love to have it so. The latest of these is "the apostasia = the rapture" false teaching being promoted by House, Woods, Ice, and others.

 

I will deal with each of these misunderstandings as I have time.

 

Exposing and correcting the misunderstanding: "The seventieth week is the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord."

 

The seventieth week and the beginning of the great tribulation (thlipsis)

 

First, we establish the Biblical basis for the seventieth week and its relationship to the second coming of Christ. It is Christ Himself who ties the seventieth week to His coming (parousia).

 

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

Jesus here refers to a prophecy given by Daniel over 500 years before. Jesus is making it clear that this time period has already been prophesied about. Daniel mentions this abomination of desolation more than once. Let’s look at what he said.

 

Dan 12:11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 

 

So that we may grasp the fullness of what we are told concerning this time it is necessary to briefly focus upon the last four verses of Daniel chapter 9. These four verses record one of the most astounding prophecies in all of Scripture. This prophecy has come to be called "Daniel's Seventy Weeks".

 

Dan 9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

The key to understanding this statement of the angel to Daniel the prophet, as Daniel recorded it, is to properly identify the meaning of the Hebrew word "shaw-boo'-ah" translated with the words "weeks" and "week" in this English translation. Shaw-boo'-ah means a seven or a heptad. The context determines what it is seven of; whether days, or years, or something else. The context here can be shown to refer to years. So, in this prophecy, the word week (shaw-boo'-ah) means seven years. Seventy weeks(sevens) would then be 490 years.

 

Verse 24 tells us that a period of 70 weeks (490 years) are decreed concerning Israel and Jerusalem and what will be accomplished in those 490 years

 

Verse 25 gives us the starting date, and timing of two events, the last of which appears to have happened on the 6th of April, 32 AD at the completion of the sixty-ninth week (483 years). This was the very day that Jesus rode into Jerusalem and presented himself as the promised King of the Jews only to be rejected and crucified a few days later.

 

Verse 26 tells us that Christ is slain for the sins of all mankind sometime after the 483 years were completed. It also tells us of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple which took place in 70 AD. Both of these events take place in an untimed period between the completion of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week. That is the period of time that we are currently in today.

 

Verse 27 tells us what will happen in the last week (the last seven years). This week is said to begin when the prince that shall come, from verse 26, confirms the covenant with many. This is believed to be the Anti-Christ confirming the covenant with many, which includes the people of Israel. In the middle of this week of seven years (~3.5 years into the last seven years of this age) the Anti-Christ will defile the Temple. Paul provides more details concerning what he actually does to defile it (2Thes 2:3-4).

 

It is this defiling of a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem that Jesus refers to in Matthew 24:15. It takes place in the middle of the last seven years of this "aeon" or age. Prior to it was the birth pangs or beginning of sorrows that Jesus foretold (Matt 24:4-8). These birth pangs closely correspond to what John the Apostle records that he saw at the opening of the first 3 seals (Rev 6:1-6).

 

Mat 24:21  For then (when the abomination of desolation takes place vs 15) shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

So, we see that it is Jesus who associates the seventieth week with His return. Jesus presents the abomination of desolation as the notable sign which indicates the beginning of the unprecedented level of persecution of the elect that He called great tribulation (thlipsis). Daniel records when it takes place, in the midst of the week. Therefore, the great tribulation begins in the midst of the week.

 

Some believe that all seventy weeks have already been fulfilled.

 

It makes little difference in understanding the events which lead up to Christ’s return whether one understands Daniel's seventy weeks prophecy as I have presented it, the rest of Scripture still points to the fact that the unprecedented persecution of the elect (great tribulation) begins when the Antichrist (Beast, man of sin) defiles the temple and that he continues for only 42 months (Rev 13:5) after which he is defeated by the Lord and cast alive into a lake of fire.

 

To those who see the seventy weeks as past history, for the sake of being on the same page, when I say seventieth week, I am referring to the last seven years prior to the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom here upon the earth. Let's get back to the question at hand.

 

Is the seven years prior to the setting up of the millennial kingdom the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord?

 

If we work backward from the Beast being cast alive into a lake of fire as described in Revelation 19 we can identify the general time period when God's wrath begins to fall in the last days.

 

The Beast will overcome the Saints, have authority over all kindreds, tongues, and nations, and continue 42 months.

 

Rev 13:4  And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; andpower was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: andpower was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

The Dragon gives the Beast his power (authority) and it only lasts 42 months then he is cast into the lake of fire

 

Dan 7:21  I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22  Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

Those who are worshiping the Beast are told that they shall fall under the wrath of God

 

Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

These three verses show that God's wrath is the result of worshiping the Beast. The Beast and those who will worship him are recipients of God's wrath. The Beast is not an instrument of God's wrath. The Beast is an instrument of Satan's wrath. Satan, the Dragon, gives him his power. Satan does this when he and the angels who follow him are cast to the earth by Michael in the middle of the week (~3.5 years before the establishment of the millennial kingdom).

 

Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the womanwhich brought forth the man child.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

The saints (holy ones) are recipients of Satan's wrath not God's

 

Satan persecutes the saints through the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers. This he does in the 3.5 years prior to the setting up of the millennial kingdom. Jesus spoke of this persecution taking place after the beginning of sorrows. He said:

 

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (thlipsis), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

Jesus warns that the real danger is not the physical death and suffering that His followers will go through but the falling away (apostasia) that Paul referenced (being offended and departing from the faith) which is the result of the intense persecution and the great deception. Those who follow the Beast will persecute the elect, but they will be tribulated (thlipsis) for their violence against us when Christ returns. We, the saints, will experience Satan's wrath, but the Beast worshiping earth dwellers will experience the wrath of the Almighty. Paul speaks of this very thing:

 

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

Paul says that the persecuted elect (the church) can rest from tribulation when Christ is revealed with His mighty angels.

 

Jesus essentially says the same thing. He says that:

 

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

The tribulation of those days, the great tribulation, is cut short (vs 22) as Jesus said it would be by the cosmic sign which announces His arrival at His coming (Parousia). John recorded his divinely inspired expectation of Christ’s coming and there is nothing secret about it just as Jesus said (Mat 24:27-28)

 

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

He also recorded what he was shown when the sixth seal was opened. It is the cosmic sign which announces Christ’s arrival. Notice that the earth dwellers who will have been worshiping the Beast are hiding because they know that God’s wrath is about to fall upon them.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

John witnessed the cosmic sign which precedes Christ’s coming and the day of the Lord.

Jesus is arriving in the clouds with the holy angels and His wrath will fall upon the Beast worshiping earth-dwellers after He gathers His own unto Himself. The day of wrath has come, the vengeance that the martyred souls under the alter cried out for and were told that they must wait a little season for is about to happen.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

John records these events in precise order (Rev 6-8)

Fifth seal martyrs including those of the great tribulation crying for God’s wrath to fall in vengeance upon those Beast worshipers who persecuted them but are told not yet. At the opening of the sixth seal John sees the cosmic sign that signifies Christ’s arrival is at hand and witnesses the earth-dwellers hiding because they realize God’s wrath is about to fall upon them. The 144,000 Israelites are sealed. The resurrected and rapture church is seen before the throne of God in Heaven. The seventh seal is opened and John witnesses ½ hour of silence in Heaven followed by the blowing of the first trumpet bringing the first stroke of God’s wrath upon the earth-dwellers.

The wrath of God begins with the first trumpet after the seventh seal

What John sees with the opening of the first 5 seals is not the wrath of God. Seals 1-3 correspond to the events of the beginning of sorrows that Jesus spoke of. Seals 4 and 5 are associated with the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation. The sixth seal announces that the day of the Lord has arrived, but the wrath doesn’t begin to fall until the seventh seal is opened and the first trumpet is blown.

The wrath falls on the day of the Lord

There is almost no contention with the truth that God’s wrath falls in the future period of time identified as the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It is God’s wrath in the day of the Lord that we are not appointed unto. Paul mentions that it takes place at Christ’s coming (Parousia).  

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul says that the day of Christ (the Lord) will not come until the man of sin (the Beast) is revealed in the Temple and the notable falling away, that results from his violent persecution of the saints and great deception, takes place.

A unique cosmic sign will take place prior to the commencement of the day of the Lord. The same cosmic sign that John witnessed at the opening of the sixth seal.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 

The day of the Lord cannot come until after the cosmic sign that John witnessed, and Jesus spoke of (Matt 24:29). Therefore, the wrath of God doesn’t fall until after the great tribulation has been cut short by Christ’s return and our rescue.

Each of the pre-trib misunderstandings below has been addressed to some degree or another in this post.

- The seventieth week is the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord. 

Wrong

- God uses the Beast as an instrument of His wrath upon the tribulation saints.

Wrong

- God's wrath begins with the opening of the first seal.

Wrong

- The great tribulation is for the Jews, the church will not be present.

Wrong

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

By Steve Conley