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Why Pretrib Logic Fails


JoeCanada

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8 minutes ago, Cletus said:

tribulation saints is made up.  by man.  period.

Then who are the saints that are prevailed over during that time?   As per Revelation 13 and Daniel 7.

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1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

 

But you stated that tribulation saints is not mentioned. Neither is trinity.  The concept of the trinity is there. and so is the concept of the tribulation saints.  Just like the concept of the rapture and a host of other things that are not "mentioned" by name in scripture.

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, [b]“Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Rev 7......

 

Edited by Littlelambseativy
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27 minutes ago, Cletus said:

study the OT temple.  where the holy of holys is located and where the mercy seat is.  study when no one was allowed to go in... when no more prayers would be heard.  its even in one of the parables about the 10 virgins... five wise... five foolish.  when the groom comes the door is shut.  no more intercessions or pleas for mercy will be heard... no more mercy seat... therefore the whole idea of tribulation saints being on earth after the bride is taken is ludicrous at best.  its not scriptural.  period.  ... the door is open now.  right now.  mercy is available to all who seek it.  salvation is now to all who seek it.  the door will remain open until its shut, and just as in the OT temple... when the time comes, none will be allowed in.... not until the bowls/vials have been completed.   

the OT temple is very symbolic in this and can even be found in revelation.  i have posts on this in this thread.  i have lots of posts that so far defies all pre-trib logic. 

And you should study Isaiah 26 where the gates are opened.  And the rest of the chapter is about the righteous being hidden during the tribulation period.  And David writes  quite clearly that during the time of trouble (see Jeremiah 30) being hidden the tabernacle of the Lord....

Psalms 27:5  For in the time of trouble
He shall hide me in His pavilion;
In the secret place of His tabernacle
He shall hide me;
He shall set me high upon a rock.

And Isaiah 26 talks about the righteous (dead and living) will be hidden in their chambers during this time upon the earth. And Yeshua alludes to that in John 14.  

So you are right to see the Temple is view, but not the correct application.

The virgins are not the bride.  The are awaiting the groom, but they are not the bride.   So they are not the redeemed.

In the ancient Hebrew marriage, the groom betroths the bride and returns to his place. Then he comes back to gather his bride to him, no virgins/bridesmaids are part of that.  The groom waits outside for his bride to come out to him.  Then they both return to his place to enter the marriage chamber and stay there for 7 days.  Then they both emerge.  It is this that the virgins/bridesmaids are looking for.   Then the marriage feast begins. And it is the marriage feast that is the timing of the parable of the 10 virgins.

These virgins are an allusion to Matthew 25, where the nations are gathered and separated into the sheep and goats.  That is a discourse by Yeshua on Joel 3.

Edited by OldCoot
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38 minutes ago, Cletus said:

let me bottom line this for you... its not Gods way to pluck you out of something but to bring you thru it. 

Well, not according to David and Isaiah!  You would be correct regarding trials and tribulations that are common to all, even the unGodly.  But the final tribulation period coming upon the earth is a unique circumstance.

Psalms 27:5 For in the time of trouble  (See Jeremiah 30:7)
He shall hide me in His pavilion;
In the secret place of His tabernacle
He shall hide me;
He shall set me high upon a rock.

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

John 14:1-3 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions (chambers); if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

 

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Just now, Cletus said:

right marriage feast comes after we are caught up... and the door is shut. 

Wrong. The marriage feast is after the bride and the groom  have spent 7 days in the Chupah and emerge as one.  It is attended to by many people, not just the bride and the groom.  You really should study the ancient Hebrew wedding since Yeshua is so fond of using it as an illustration.   

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21 minutes ago, Cletus said:

this does not nail down anything to do with the time of when we are caught up.  however you didnt seem to pay much mind to the whole part i included in timing.  when the door is shut.  when the mercy seat is no longer available.  its a moot point really. 

But the other discussion about the wedding and the righteous being hidden from that time does.

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8 minutes ago, Cletus said:

how about these "tribulation saints"?   did they get hidden in secret chambers?

Revelation 2 does not apply.  That is part of the letters to the churches.... the redeemed prior to the tribulation period. 

Revelation 7:14-17 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

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12 minutes ago, Cletus said:

emerging as one...  now where is that found in scripture... whats that one verse about a husband and a wife becomeing one flesh?

Man, you really need to do some reading. This one is soooo basic.....

Genesis 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Cletus said:

I am going to say this in the most plain fashion i can.  i never brought up the marriage feast.  you did.  i didnt ever even want to discuss that, but rather the timing of when we are caught up/rapture/whatever you wanna call it.  dont care about the marriage feast at this point.  and if you go back and read what i wrote you will see what i am saying here is true... and even more i am not disagreeing with marriage then the feast.  but again, this thread is about why pretrib locig fails... not the marrigae feast.  timing of rapture.  if you have something to contribute to that then i wil continue.  if not, well, gotta chunk deuce on this. 

Well, you might not have brought it up, but Yeshua sure spent a lot of discourse talking about the Hebrew marriage and equating it to Him and the redeemed.  Sure, He didn't elaborate a lot on the details, but then the audience He was speaking to was very familiar with the Hebrew marriage.  So a study of what a Hebrew marriage was during that period is a good idea to grasp all that Yeshua is alluding to.  

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On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 6:28 AM, JoeCanada said:
  •      

These passages teach that God in this present Church age is working with Israel to make them “jealous.”

These reasons are sufficient to show that pretrib logic fails miserably when they claim that the Church “cannot be here” for the last part of Daniel’s prophecy.

Hi JoeCanada,

The reason we, the Body of Christ will not be here in the tribulation, is that we are the first purpose of God to be complete. When the Body is mature (Eph. 4: 13) then Christ will come and take us to His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21) This is in the third heaven and where we will rule and reign with Christ. There we will judge the world system & those apart of it, plus fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

God`s purposes are all about bringing every rulership in every realm under Christ. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10) We, the Body of Christ will be the first rulership under Christ in the third heaven. From there all other rulerships will be dealt with. And those God has prepared to rule in other realm will eventually do so. Israel is another one of those groups and they will rule the nations of the earth during the millennium. The tribulation is their preparation time, to finish the chastisement of 490 years, (in sections).

Marilyn.

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