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Why Pretrib Logic Fails


JoeCanada

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I may have said this before, but the main reason pre trib logic fails is the lack of logic and the reliance on feel good doctrine.

Passages are twisted into unrecognizable shapes or rejected outright, or reduced to inapplicable footnotes; all in an attempt to avoid the truth.

Our Lord tells a different truth about the coming war. We should all rely on His words in preparation of our hearts and minds to face the battles; and understand His grace and strength will carry us to victory no matter the circumstances, as Christ our Savior is strong to deliver us with and mighty hand.

 

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On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 12:23 PM, Spock said:

I love reading your words RevMan but I can’t buy your 24 elders teaching.  May I suggest you read David Lowe’s Earthquake Resuuection and check out his interpretation on the 24 elders.  

Honestly, I’ve decided to not even discuss the 24 elders anymore, too divisive with 20 different points of view. I will close with this....I could never base a pre Trib rapture on that....the identity of the 24 elders.  I know pre tribbers want them to be church guys so they can say, “see, there you go, church in Heaven before seals opened.”

i find this so weak....honestly brother, you would need a lot more than that to convince me the rapture is before the seals. 

In my opinion, Rev 7:9-17 is the best evidence for when the rapture takes place.....after the 6th seal. The issue for me has always been the timing of the 6th seal.  Is it before 70th week or during the 70th week.? Still open....

 

Well who do you think they would be ? They receive the very things promised to the Church as I detail, and in Rev. 5:9 they sing the song of Redemption, Angels don't need Redemption, and humans do, the Church is Raptured all at one time. 

This is by no means all I base my understanding off of, I list many various reasons, but I think the problem is too many people already have their understandings and to them that is more important than following the facts to their logical conclusions.  

The 6th Seal is just not an option brother. The Seal's are the Lambs Wrath, everyone of them, God starts noting in the middle. Rev. 7:9-17 are the Church shown in Heaven after the Seals are opened, during the Tribulation on earth. They are in Heaven for the full 7 years however. The 70th week is a week, not 3.5 years, the Seals are opened in the Middle of the Week, thus it represents the Anti-Christ going forth in the Middle of the Week.

I have many, many reasons why the Rapture starts before the 70th week, but I have never heard someone claim the 70th week starts with the 6th Seal, the Anti-Christ comes forth in the MIDDLE of the Week, thus there is but 1260 days left when the First Seal is opened, so how can there be 7 years left when there is only 3.5 years left ? 

Other reasons for understanding the Rapture is Pre-tribulation BELOW:

 The Rapture
What is it ? Who will it affect ? When is it most likely to take place ?
                          

The Rapture is a glorious event which God has promised to the Church. The promise is that someday very soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the sky and take up His Church, living and dead, to Heaven.

The Term
The term “Rapture” comes from a Latin word, “rapio,” that means “to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out.” It is, in turn, a translation of the Greek word, “harpazo.”

So, “Rapture” is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, “caught up,” is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions.

A Promise to the Church
The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church. Jesus will return as a bridegroom for His bride, and that bride consists only of Church Age saints.

The saints of Old Testament times will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation and not at the time of the Rapture of the Church. Daniel reveals this fact in Daniel 12:1-2 where he says that the saints of that age will be resurrected at the end of the “time of distress.”

Biblical References
The first clear mention of the Rapture in Scripture is found in the words of Jesus recorded in John 14:1-4. Jesus said, “I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”

The most detailed revelation of the actual events related to the Rapture is given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He says that when Jesus appears, the dead in Christ (Church Age saints) will be resurrected and caught up first. Then, those of us who are alive in Christ will be translated “to meet the Lord in the air.”

Paul mentions the Rapture again in 1 Corinthians 15 — his famous chapter on the resurrection of the dead: “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet” (verses 51-52).

Paul’s reference here to being changed is an allusion to the fact that the saints will receive glorified bodies that will be imperishable, immortal, and perfected (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 50-55 and Isaiah 35:5-6).

A Summary
To summarize, these passages teach that the shout of an archangel and the blowing of a trumpet will herald the sudden appearance of Jesus in the heavens (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The dead in Christ will be resurrected and rise up to meet the Lord in the sky. Then, those saints who are alive will be “caught up” to the Lord. Paul concludes his description in 1 Thessalonians 4 by encouraging his readers to “comfort one another with these words.”

And truly the Rapture is a comforting thought! Consider the promises contained in the concept of the Rapture. Jesus will bring with Him the spirits of those who have died in Him (1 Thessalonians 4:14). He will resurrect their bodies in a great miracle of re-creation; He will reunite their bodies with their spirits; and He will then glorify their bodies, making them immortal. And those believers who are living will not even taste death. Rather, they will be caught up to the Lord, and in transit, they will be translated from mortal to immortal.

All my life I have heard that there are two things no one can avoid: taxes and death. Well, that is not true. According to 1 Thessalonians 4, a whole generation of believers will escape death. Taxes appear to be the only inevitability!

The Timing
The most controversial aspect of the Rapture is its timing. Some place it at the end of the Tribulation, making it one and the same event as the Second Coming. Others place it in the middle of the Tribulation. Still others believe that it will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation.

The reason for these differing viewpoints is that the exact time of the Rapture is not precisely revealed in scripture. It is only inferred. There is, therefore, room for honest differences of opinion, and lines of fellowship should certainly not be drawn over differences regarding this point, even though it is an important point.

Post-Tribulation Rapture
Those who place the timing at the end of the Tribulation usually base their argument on two parables in Matthew 13 and on the Lord’s Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.

In Matthew 24 the Lord portrays His gathering of the saints as an event that will take place “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matthew 24:29). This certainly sounds like a post-Tribulation Rapture. But it must be kept in mind that the book of Matthew was written to the Jews, and therefore the recording of Jesus’ speech by Matthew has a distinctively Jewish flavor to it as compared to Luke’s record of the same speech.

Note, for example, Matthew’s references to Judea and to Jewish law regarding travel on the Sabbath (Matthew 24:15-20). These are omitted in Luke’s account. Instead, Luke speaks of the saints looking up for deliverance “to escape all these things” when the end time signs “begin to take place” (Luke 21:28, 36). The saints in Matthew are instructed to flee from Judea and hide. The saints in Luke are told to look up for deliverance.

It appears, therefore, that Matthew and Luke are speaking of two different sets of saints. The saints in Matthew’s account are most likely Jews who receive Jesus as their Messiah during the Tribulation. The saints in Luke are those who receive Christ before the Tribulation begins. Most of those who accept the Lord during the Tribulation will be martyred (Revelation 7:9-14). Those who live to the end will be gathered by the angels of the Lord (Matthew 24:31).

The parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30) and the parable of the dragnet (Matthew 13:47-50) can be explained in the same way. They refer to a separation of saints and sinners that will take place at the end of the Tribulation. The saints are those who receive Jesus as their Savior during the Tribulation (Gentile and Jew) and who live to the end of that awful period.

The Bible clearly teaches that the Rapture is an event that is separate and apart from the Second Coming. The two simply cannot be combined into one event.

Mid-Tribulation Rapture
There are variations of the mid-Tribulation Rapture concept. The most common is that the Church will be taken out in the exact middle of the Tribulation, at the point in time when the Antichrist is revealed.

This concept is based upon a statement in 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of “the last trumpet.” This trumpet is then identified with the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments in the book of Revelation. Since the blowing of the seventh trumpet is recorded in Revelation 11, the mid-point of the Tribulation, the conclusion is that the Rapture must occur in the middle of the Tribulation.

But there are two problems with this interpretation. The first is that the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets have no relevance for the Church. The last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is a trumpet for the righteous. The last trumpet for the unrighteous is the one described in Revelation 11.

Another problem with this interpretation is that the passage in Revelation 11 that portrays the sounding of the seventh trumpet is a “flash forward” to the end of the Tribulation. Flash forwards are very common in the book of Revelation. They occur after something terrible is described in order to assure the reader that everything is going to turn out all right when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation.

Thus, the eighth and ninth chapters of Revelation, which describe the horrors of the trumpet judgments, are followed immediately by a flash forward in chapter 10 that pictures the return of Jesus in victory at the end of the Tribulation. The mid-Tribulation action resumes in chapter 11 with a description of the killing of the two great prophets of God by the Antichrist. Then, to offset that terrible event, we are presented with another flash forward, beginning with verse 15. The seventh trumpet is sounded and we find ourselves propelled forward to the end of the Tribulation when “the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord.”

The point is that the seventh trumpet of Revelation relates to the end of the Tribulation and not the middle. It is the same trumpet that is referred to in Matthew 24:31, the trumpet that will be blown to announce the Second Coming of Jesus. It is therefore no basis for an argument in behalf of a mid-Tribulation Rapture.

Pre-Wrath Rapture
A variation of the mid-Tribulation Rapture is the pre-wrath Rapture concept that places the Rapture at some point in the last quarter of the Tribulation, about five and a half years into the Tribulation.

The argument for this view is that the Church is promised protection only from the wrath of God and not the wrath of Man or of Satan. It is then argued that only the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments constitute the wrath of God, and these are placed in the last quarter of the Tribulation, despite the fact that the book of Revelation clearly places the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the Tribulation. They maintain that the Seal Judgments are the wrath of Man and Satan.

This view disintegrates when you consider the fact that it is Jesus Himself who breaks the seals that launch each of the Seal Judgments recorded in Revelation 6. These judgments occur at the beginning of the Tribulation, and they are referred to as “the wrath of the Lamb” (Revelation 6:16).

All the judgments of Revelation are clearly superintended by God. That is the reason we are told in Revelation 15:1 that the Bowl Judgments at the end of the Tribulation will finish the wrath of God, not begin His wrath.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
I believe the best inference of Scripture is that the Rapture will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The most important reason I believe this has to do with the issue of imminence.

Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord. We are told “to be ready” (Matthew 24:44), “to be on the alert” (Matthew 24:42), “to be dressed in readiness” (Luke 12:35), and to “keep your lamps alight” (Luke 12:35). The clear force of these persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment.

Only the pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture allows for the imminence of the Lord’s appearing for His Church. When the Rapture is placed at any other point in time, the imminence of the Lord’s appearing is destroyed because other prophetic events must happen first.

For example, if the Rapture is going to occur in mid-Tribulation, then why should I live looking for the Lord’s appearing at any moment? I would be looking instead for an Israeli peace treaty, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the revelation of the Antichrist. Then and only then could the Lord appear.

Focus
This raises the issue of what we are to be looking for. Nowhere are believers told to watch for the appearance of the Antichrist. On the contrary, we are told to watch for Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:13 Paul says we are to live “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” Likewise, Peter urges us to “fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:13). John completes the apostolic chorus by similarly urging us to “fix our hope on Him” at His appearing (1 John 3:2-3).

Only Matthew speaks of watching for the Antichrist (Matthew 24:15), but he is speaking to the Jews living in Israel in the middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Temple.

Wrath
Another argument in behalf of a pre-Tribulation Rapture has to do with the promises of God to protect the Church from His wrath. As has already been demonstrated, the book of Revelation shows that the wrath of God will be poured out during the entire period of the Tribulation.

The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from God’s wrath. Romans 5:9 says that “we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus].” 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting “for His Son from heaven… who will deliver us from the wrath to come.” The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 — “God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Deliverance
Some argue that God could supernaturally protect the Church during the Tribulation. Yes, He could. In fact, He promises to do just that for the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed as bond-servants at the beginning of the Tribulation (Revelation 7:1-8).

But God’s promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection but one of deliverance. Jesus said we would “escape” the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:3-6). Paul says Jesus is coming to “deliver” us from God’s wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Symbolism
There are several prophetic types that seem to affirm the concept of deliverance from Tribulation.

Take Enoch for example. He was a prophet to the Gentiles who was raptured out of the world before God poured out His wrath in the great flood of Noah’s time. Enoch appears to be a type of the Gentile Church that will be taken out of the world before God pours out His wrath again. If so, then Noah and his family are a type of the Jewish remnant that will be protected through the Tribulation.

Another Old Testament symbolic type which points toward a pre-Tribulation Rapture is the experience of Lot and his family. They were delivered out of Sodom and Gomorrah before those cities were destroyed.

The Apostle Peter alludes to both of these examples in his second epistle. He states that if God spared Noah and Lot, then He surely “knows how to rescue the godly from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:4-9).

Another beautiful prophetic type is to be found in the Jewish wedding traditions of Jesus’ time. After the betrothal, the groom would return to his father’s house to prepare a wedding chamber for his bride. He would return for his bride at an unexpected moment, so the bride had to be ready constantly. When he returned, he would take his bride back to his father’s house to the chamber he had prepared. He and his bride would then be sealed in the chamber for seven days. When they emerged, a great wedding feast would be celebrated.

Likewise, Jesus has returned to Heaven to prepare a place for His bride, the Church. When He returns for His bride, He will take her to His Father’s heavenly home. There He will remain with His bride for seven years (the duration of the Tribulation). The period will end with “the marriage supper of the Lamb” described in Revelation 19. Thus the seven days in the wedding chamber point prophetically to the seven years that Jesus and His bride will remain in Heaven during the Tribulation.

Revelation
Speaking of Revelation, the structure of that book also implies a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a symbolic sense.

The first three chapters focus on the Church. Chapter 4 begins with the door of Heaven opening and John being raptured from the Isle of Patmos to the throne of God in Heaven. The Church is not mentioned thereafter until Revelation 19:7-9 when it is portrayed as the “bride of Christ” in Heaven with Jesus celebrating the “marriage supper of the Lamb.” At Revelation 19:11 the door of Heaven opens again, and Jesus emerges riding a white horse on His way to earth, followed by His Church (Revelation 19:14).

The rapture of the Apostle John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type of the Rapture of the Church. Note that it is initiated by the cry of a voice that sounds like the blowing of a trumpet (Revelation 4:1). Since the Tribulation does not begin until Revelation 6, the rapture of John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type that points to a pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

Some counter this argument by pointing out that although the Church is not mentioned in Revelation during that book’s description of the Tribulation, there is constant mention of “saints” (for example, Revelation 13:7). But that term is not used in the Bible exclusively to refer to members of the Church. Daniel uses it to refer to Old Testament believers who lived long before the Church was established (Daniel 7:18). The saints referred to in the book of Revelation are most likely those people who will be saved during the Tribulation, after the Church has been taken out of the world.

Paul’s Assurance
An interesting argument in behalf of the pre-Tribulation timing of the Rapture can be found in 2 Thessalonians. The church at Thessalonica was in a turmoil because someone had written them a letter under Paul’s name stating that they had missed the “gathering to the Lord” and were, in fact, living in “the day of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2).

Paul attempted to calm them down by reminding them of his teaching that the day of the Lord would not come until after the Antichrist is revealed. He then stated that the Antichrist would not be revealed until a restraining force “is taken out of the way” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-7).

There has been much speculation as to the identity of this restraining force that Paul refers to. Some have identified it as the Holy Spirit. But it cannot be the Holy Spirit because there will be people saved during the Tribulation, and no one can be saved apart from the testimony of the Spirit (John 16:8-11 & 1 John 5:7).

Others have identified the restrainer as human government. It is true that government was ordained by God to restrain evil (Romans 13:1-4). But the governments of the world are in rebellion against God and His Son (Psalm 2), and they are therefore a contributor to the evil that characterizes the world. Furthermore, the Tribulation will not be characterized by a lack of government. Rather, it will feature the first true worldwide government (Revelation 13:7).

In my opinion that leaves only one other candidate for Paul’s restrainer — and that is the Church. It is the Church that serves as the primary restrainer of evil in the world today as it proclaims the Gospel and stands for righteousness. When the Church fails in this mission, evil multiplies, as Paul graphically points out in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Paul says that society in the end times will be characterized by chaos and despair because “men will hold to a form of religion but will deny its power.” When the Church is removed from the world, all hell will literally break loose.

Escapism ?
The pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture has often been condemned as “escapism.” I think this criticism is unjustified. The Bible itself says that Christians are to “comfort one another” with the thought of the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:18). Is it a comfort to think of the Rapture occurring at the end of the world’s worst period of war instead of at the beginning?

Regardless of when the Rapture actually occurs, we need to keep in mind that the Bible teaches that societal conditions are going to grow increasingly worse the closer we get to the Lord’s return. That means Christians will suffer tribulation whether or not they go into the Great Tribulation. And that means all of us had better be preparing ourselves for unprecedented suffering and spiritual warfare.

If you are a Christian, you can do that on a daily basis by putting on “the full armor of God” (Ephesians 6:13), praying at all times in the Spirit that you will be able to stand firm against the attacks of Satan (Ephesians 6:14-18).

If you are not a Christian, your only hope is to reach out in faith and receive the free gift of God’s salvation which He has provided through His Son, Jesus (John 3:16).

I can go on and on and on brother. I can tell you the perfect order of the Book of Revelation, the Rapture is much easier to discern than the BoR brother.

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On 2/17/2019 at 8:51 AM, Da Puppers said:

The little horn is the best from the sea. 

Verse list:    
Rev 13:1-3 KJV    And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Dan 7:19-23 KJV    Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

The little horn arises among the 10 horns, and is not an 11th horn.   John's beast from the earth is the 4th beast that Daniel sees arise from the earth. 

Verse list:    
Dan 7:24-26 KJV    And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Rev 13:11 KJV    And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Daniel 8 is the detailed explanation of the 4th kingdoms rule by the little horn and the one that arises after. 


Dan 8:3 KJV    Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Blessings

The PuP 

Just as I expected: no attack on Jerusalem written in Revelation. 

Daniel 8 is about Greece and Persia: and their conflict, then Greece after Alexander had whipped Darius of Persia. Then about Antiochus.

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12 hours ago, Diaste said:

I may have said this before, but the main reason pre trib logic fails is the lack of logic and the reliance on feel good doctrine.

Passages are twisted into unrecognizable shapes or rejected outright, or reduced to inapplicable footnotes; all in an attempt to avoid the truth.

Our Lord tells a different truth about the coming war. We should all rely on His words in preparation of our hearts and minds to face the battles; and understand His grace and strength will carry us to victory no matter the circumstances, as Christ our Savior is strong to deliver us with and mighty hand.

 

Does Paul mention the Day of the Lord, just 3 verses past his classic rapture verse of 1 Thes. 4:17?

Does Paul tell us that two groups of people get two different results: that those in Christ get "salvation" (raptured) while those living in darkness get "sudden destruction?"

Does Paul then tell us God will set no appointments for us with His wrath - hinting very strongly that the "sudden destruction" is the start of God's wrath and probably the start of the Day of the Lord? 

Is belief that God sets no appointments with His wrath "twisting?"  Or is that just plain truth written by Paul?  

Is 1 Thes. chapter 5 a footnote? 

I will freely admit that believing the rapture will come before wrath is "feel good." We are to comfort one another with this thought! 

Is the scriptural word "comfort" so far removed from "feel good" that you have to make fun of it?

Finally, why is it illogical to you that God would NOT WISH His own children to suffer from His wrath? He God angry with US - His children - or is He angry with the world that will not repent?

Edited by iamlamad
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Just now, Da Puppers said:

I can't make you believe that the little horn that stands up against the prince of princes in Dan 8 (and is broken w/o hand), is the same little horn who makes war with the saints in Dan 7 and is killed,  AND that this is all tied to the Lord defending Jerusalem in Isa 31 and when men shall hide in the rocks and hills as found there and in Isa 2 and Rev 6 (you can add in Joel 2:20 when this northern army retreats to their stronghold).

I can only give you the scriptures to point you in that direction.   If the spirit of God does not quicken these things in your heart,  then either I have not spoken the truth to you,  or you will be among the deceived that the day of the Lord will come upon unexpectedly.  I'll let you decide. 

Blessings

The PuP 

Question: was it Antiochus Epiphanes that makes war with the saints in Dan. 7?  (Let's start with this.)

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On 2/17/2019 at 6:43 PM, Cletus said:

I am going to say this in the most plain fashion i can.  i never brought up the marriage feast.  you did.  i didnt ever even want to discuss that, but rather the timing of when we are caught up/rapture/whatever you wanna call it.  dont care about the marriage feast at this point.  and if you go back and read what i wrote you will see what i am saying here is true... and even more i am not disagreeing with marriage then the feast.  but again, this thread is about why pretrib locig fails... not the marrigae feast.  timing of rapture.  if you have something to contribute to that then i wil continue.  if not, well, gotta chunk deuce on this. 

The marriage and supper as written in Rev. 19 is  VERY MUCH a part of the logic of a pretrib rapture. Posttribbers can't get to the marriage! It is that simple. The marriage and supper will be in heaven before Jesus descends. 

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On 2/17/2019 at 6:33 PM, Cletus said:

how about these "tribulation saints"?   did they get hidden in secret chambers?

Rev 2:10  Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

(pre-trib logic still failing)

If you look in Rev 12 (a midpoint chapter) you read this:

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

A little background: the "woman" or those living in Judea have just seen the abomination and fled into the wilderness, just as Jesus told them to. The dragon tried to get them, but failed, realizing they are supernaturally protected. So He turns to another group. This group is only a remnant. WHY a remnant? Because the main load went out with the pretrib rapture: only a remnant  is left on earth. They are indeed, "tribulation saints."  Pretrib does not deny there will be tribulation saints: we only deny that THE CHURCH will be tribulation saints. Paul tells us that the rapture will come just before God's wrath - which wrath begins at the 6th seal. The rapture then will come a moment before the 6th seal. "The trib" or 70th week will begin at the 7th seal. This is pretrib: rapture before trib. Case closed.

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7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The marriage and supper as written in Rev. 19 is  VERY MUCH a part of the logic of a pretrib rapture. Posttribbers can't get to the marriage! It is that simple. The marriage and supper will be in heaven before Jesus descends. 

Probably ... ... ... 

not.

 

Search for the (very major) difference between (in Scripture)  the bride of Christ,  and the body of Christ.   Few , apparently, find out or know.

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On 2/17/2019 at 6:33 PM, OldCoot said:

Wrong. The marriage feast is after the bride and the groom  have spent 7 days in the Chupah and emerge as one.  It is attended to by many people, not just the bride and the groom.  You really should study the ancient Hebrew wedding since Yeshua is so fond of using it as an illustration.   

CLEARLY delineated in Revelation with the marriage and supper written in Rev. 19, after the 70th week has ended.

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20 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I will freely admit that believing the rapture will come before wrath is "feel good." We are to comfort one another with this thought! 

No.

 

Corrie ten Boom warned the churches about this deception decades ago.

So did the Chinese Pastors longer ago.

It is "false comfort",  deceiving,  and does not prepare (nor even tell nor admit to)  anyone what they are going to have to go through.

Edited by simplejeff
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