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Why Pretrib Logic Fails


JoeCanada

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5 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hey brother,

If you want to really look into things, have a look at.....gospelintheendtimes.com. On the left side, scroll down a bit and have a look at the video series...."Dawn of a New Day". They are short videos, about 8-10 minutes each. They really do explain a lot, all scriptural based.

I have also read Alan k's books. Also Joel Richardson (Joelstrumpet.com) and Mark Davidson (foursignposts.com)

These guys bring a wealth of information.

So you're a real Habs fan eh? Good stuff bro. They are a great team.  

Thanks Joe. I will check out that video series you referenced. I’ve read most of Joel Richardson’s book and I also read Mark Davidson’s book on Daniel. Both are great reads but I don’t agree with all of their conclusions. For example, Joel believes Gog War is Armageddon. I can’t go there. Other differences too, but hey, we are all studying to show ourselves worthy, right? 

Ive been a Habs fan since I was a little one, around 1960. We are competitive this year but still are missing a few pieces to say we can compete for the Cup. I’m hoping i see number 25 before called up. Lol

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On 1/30/2019 at 9:13 PM, Revelation Man said:

Who told you this ? Are you sure you are correct here or are you assuming things that don't really jibe brother. I took care of the OP and he answerd nary a word of course.

As per the Saints will be overcome by Satan, do you know who that is referencing ? Here you go.

Dan. 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen (Jesus), which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The Jews are THE SAINTS that will be Conquered by the Little Horn/Anti-Christ at the 1260 for 1260 days and that will end when Jesus Returns. 

So THE SAINTS are not the Christian Church per se, which will be in Heaven Marrying the Lamb, it will be the 2/3 Jews who don't Repent who are overcome, the 1/3 who do Repent Flee Judea, thus they are overcome in that them must live in the Mountains for 3.5 years.

The remnant Church (those Gentiles that Repent after the Rapture) are also overcome, in that they are the Martyrs under the 5th Seal. 

 

So what happens when we go by singular passages without putting them in their proper "CONTEXT" is we get confusion. Yes, there are Saints on earth during the 70th Week/Tribulation period, but it is not the Church/Bride of Christ. Now the passage makes perfect sense in that yes the Church has been Raptured, AND the Saints are overcome. 

This is a GREAT rebuttal to the Rev 12 and 13 passages that talk about Satan OVERCOMING the Saints. Who are the Saints he is referring too? Rev Man May be spot on......it doesn’t HAVE TO BE THE CHURCH. Maybe it is, but it doesn’t have to be. That’s how I see it.  I see the raptured church in Rev 7:9-17....this I do “know” to be true. So, can the church still be here in 12 and 13 if I believe they are in heaven in ch 7? I don’t think so......

thoughts? 

 

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1 minute ago, Spock said:

This is a GREAT rebuttal to the Rev 12 and 13 passages that talk about Satan OVERCOMING the Saints. Who are the Saints he is referring too? Rev Man May be spot on......it doesn’t HAVE TO BE THE CHURCH. Maybe it is, but it doesn’t have to be. That’s how I see it.  I see the raptured church in Rev 7:9-17....this I do “know” to be true. So, can the church still be here in 12 and 13 if I believe they are in heaven in ch 7? I don’t think so......

thoughts

 

Beware of deception.  Test the spirits.   Test the message.  Test by Scripture and remain in prayer.

Remember there is time and times when the true saints are martyred - millions in the last 50 or so  years. 

And many 'saints' gave up their faith,  renounced Jesus, because of threats of pain, suffering , imprisonment or death.

And there has never been a majority of saints on earth, of faithful Ekklesia believing in Yahweh,  except twice in all history.

Only a remnant is saved,   as Yahweh Says in the Bible,  and if they were not saved by Him,  no one would be saved at all.

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On 2/1/2019 at 12:05 AM, Revelation Man said:

You mean the ones I answered but you seemingly can't give a simple rebut to ? 

For starters, one thing I never do, unless it's the Armstrong teachings, is try to associate anyone with other peoples teachings, God teaches me, and I read many other people's work, some I agree with and some I find that I disagree with, but the Holy Spirit should be our guide in the end. Just because the 75 to 85 percent or vast majority of Christendom doesn't agree with your positions on the Rapture, doesn't make us all disciples of so and so, stop trying to peg everyone who disagrees with you brother, you are in the vast minority as per the Rapture beliefs,  but I am not trying to pigeonhole you as being a follower of X, Y, or Z !! It is what it is. Pre trib is fact as per the Church as far as I am concerned. 

I can hear it, but I heard it long ago and read the bible and saw that the pre tribulation rapture was the only POV that jibed with the bible IMHO. I can hear anything, but when I point out FACTUAL REASONS/Scriptures why it can't be true and all I get is crickets, I take that as people are just too entrenched in positions to change, for whatever reason, what I never do is get entrenched in my thoughts so deep that I can't be moved. Now when the Holy Spirit shows me something, I then can not be moved, of course. 

We (Church) Return with Christ in Rev. 19, while the Beast is STILL ON EARTH !! We (Church) are seen in Rev. 4 and 5 before the Seals are opened and in Revelation 7 just before the Trumpets are blown. We are with Christ for 7 years in Heaven. Those who repent after the Rapture will indeed suffer tribulation, but not the Raptured Church. Now you can disagree with me, that is OK, but I use the Scriptures, and show why the Scriptures used against the pre trib position don't mesh. Whatever opinion you desire is A OK with me, but I am going to point out the Scripture that show the pre-trib position brother, it's my job as a preacher to do so.

But it does line up with scriptures, the Pre trib is easy to see. You can't cite any scriptures about the pre trib, that I can't explain as per to why peoples belief therein is a miscalculation of said scriptures. Not one !! But Rev. 19 can't be explained by the post trib guys. Amongst many other passages. We see the Church in Rev. 4 and 5 also, and I have proven it many times. 

Well why would you cite the JW, I mean Satan has been deceiving for 200o years (and even before that of course), I decided to listen to Jesus almost 35 years ago. I prove everything I say with Scriptures brother.

The Rapture is for the Church, thus it's basically not in the Old Testament, it can be vaguely seen in a few places. But we can understand what happens to Israel, and thus understand things as per what will happen to the Church. It is called Jacob's Troubles for a reason.

As per the New Testament, only Paul, the Disciple of the Gentiles was given the Rapture understanding, and Paul tells us about it in the New Testament chapters, 1 Corinthians 15 and in 1 Thessalonians 4 amongst other places. Jesus gives it unto us in parables because it was only intended for Paul to conceptualize it to the masses, not the other Disciples per se. So we do see it in the 10 Virgins parable where 5 are shut out of the wedding and in Matthew 24:36-51 where one is taken and another is left and where Jesus' return for the Church is imminent, but his Second Coming WILL NOT BE IMMINENT, it will be an orderly event, as in Vials 1-6 which leads to the 7th Vial, that is a countdown. All of the Scriptures have to be used to gain any understandings. Jesus tells it to us in Matthew 24:36-51 but the post tribbers say it means something else.

Then in 2 Thessalonians 2, we are specifically told that the Church must DEPART before the Man of Sin can come forth and BEFORE the Day of the Lord can come upon us. It has nothing to do with falling away from the Faith, the Subject is a Gathering together unto the Lord, BEFORE the Day of the Lord, which starts at the First Seal and runs to the 7th Vial. 

We see the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened !! 

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The different views of who these 24 Elders are here below....................see the Blue.

1.) The 24 Elders are Angels...........................Well, we see humans called Elders but never have we seen Angels called elders. Also throughout the book of Revelation Elders and Angels are distinguished. Thirdly in Rev. 5:9 the Elders sing a Song of Redemption, so lets discount that viewpoint.

2.) The Elders are the Church AND Israel..........The problem with this is that Israel will not be Resurrected (Daniel 12:1-2) and rewarded until the Second Coming of Christ.

3.) The 24 Elders are the Church..........BINGO..........The reasons are many, I will list them below:

The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4.

* A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 )

* A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 )

* A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 )

In Pre-tribulationism: the Rapture occurs BEFORE the tribulation. 

So the above definition of pre-trib fits perfectly with the 24 Elders being the Church in Heaven doesn't it ? Before the Seals are opened !! 

This however wouldn't work in Post tribulation theory or with pre-wrath theory either !!

As per the 24 Elders meaning ? or why 24 Elders !!  Well this fits 1 Chronicles 24:7-19 where we are told there are 24 orders of priests.

1 Chronicles 24:7 Now the first lot came forth to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah,..........18 The three and twentieth to Delaiah, the four and twentieth to Maaziah. 19 These were the orderings of them in their service to come into the house of the Lord, according to their manner, under Aaron their father, as the Lord God of Israel had commanded him.

Rev. 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

So as you see, the 24 Elders can be nothing but the Church in Heaven. They get the same EXACT REWARDS that the Church were promised and we are indeed kings and priests unto God the Father. 

So it's all there brother, I am not just guessing, I just don't take passages out of the contextual composition that they were given unto us in without TRYING THEM via all other verses/passages to see if they jibe. I am very good at Chess/Riddles, I guess that is why God called me unto Prophecy brother. 

God Bless

 

 

Good stuff here Rev Man, but I now am perplexed about something. I’ve asked this elsewhere but maybe you missed it. 

It appears Jesus is not in Heaven in Rev 4 and actually doesn’t show up till 5:6 where he takes the scroll and opens the seals.

question: if Jesus wasn’t  in heaven in 4, do you agree that he was then still on Earth? And if you agree he was still on earth, how can the 24 elders represent the church if the church is still on earth along with Jesus?  Thanks brother. 

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On 2/5/2019 at 8:01 AM, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

 

The topic here is "Why pretrib logic fails." On page 114 of the topic "Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture," I began addressing a list of pre-trib misunderstandings. I began with the false teaching of imminence. I will here deal with a few more pre-trib misunderstandings on the list.

 

How does one defend the indefensible?

 

You start by stating assumptions as fact. You use these assumptions to build a layered fortress through circular reasoning. This system of circular reasoning, in the minds of the errant, is used to twist even the most explicit of Biblical statements. That which is most plain and clear must mean something different than it obviously says or else the whole system, made up of what is thought to be orthodox truth, collapses. Some of these misunderstandings (I'm being charitable) which are thought to be orthodox are:

 

1) Imminence, Christ could come secretly at any moment to rapture His church.

2) The seventieth week is the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord. 

3) God has to rapture the church before he can deal with the Jews.

4) God uses the Beast as an instrument of His wrath upon the tribulation saints.

5) God's wrath begins with the opening of the first seal.

6) The 144,000 are Jewish evangelists who bring about the greatest revival in history.

7) The great tribulation is for the Jews, the church will not be present.

 

And there are many more.

 

These tenants of pretribulationism are all interdependent upon each other. The whole system is built upon misunderstandings and assumed inferences predicated upon those misunderstandings. If one falls, they all fall. But as we have heard concerning some corporations or organizations, "they are too big to fail." So like those, pretribulationism is propped up by denominational leaders and those teachers who would lose face were they to correct their teaching. Many of these, upon being exposed, instead of repenting, double down and go to greater lengths in the wresting of the Scriptures. They are forever finding new, so-called, references to a pre-trib rapture that they can publish in books to satisfy the itching ears of those who love to have it so. The latest of these is "the apostasia = the rapture" false teaching being promoted by House, Woods, Ice, and others.

 

I will deal with each of these misunderstandings as I have time.

 

Exposing and correcting the misunderstanding: "The seventieth week is the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord."

 

The seventieth week and the beginning of the great tribulation (thlipsis)

 

First, we establish the Biblical basis for the seventieth week and its relationship to the second coming of Christ. It is Christ Himself who ties the seventieth week to His coming (parousia).

 

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

Jesus here refers to a prophecy given by Daniel over 500 years before. Jesus is making it clear that this time period has already been prophesied about. Daniel mentions this abomination of desolation more than once. Let’s look at what he said.

 

Dan 12:11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 

 

So that we may grasp the fullness of what we are told concerning this time it is necessary to briefly focus upon the last four verses of Daniel chapter 9. These four verses record one of the most astounding prophecies in all of Scripture. This prophecy has come to be called "Daniel's Seventy Weeks".

 

Dan 9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

The key to understanding this statement of the angel to Daniel the prophet, as Daniel recorded it, is to properly identify the meaning of the Hebrew word "shaw-boo'-ah" translated with the words "weeks" and "week" in this English translation. Shaw-boo'-ah means a seven or a heptad. The context determines what it is seven of; whether days, or years, or something else. The context here can be shown to refer to years. So, in this prophecy, the word week (shaw-boo'-ah) means seven years. Seventy weeks(sevens) would then be 490 years.

 

Verse 24 tells us that a period of 70 weeks (490 years) are decreed concerning Israel and Jerusalem and what will be accomplished in those 490 years

 

Verse 25 gives us the starting date, and timing of two events, the last of which appears to have happened on the 6th of April, 32 AD at the completion of the sixty-ninth week (483 years). This was the very day that Jesus rode into Jerusalem and presented himself as the promised King of the Jews only to be rejected and crucified a few days later.

 

Verse 26 tells us that Christ is slain for the sins of all mankind sometime after the 483 years were completed. It also tells us of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple which took place in 70 AD. Both of these events take place in an untimed period between the completion of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week. That is the period of time that we are currently in today.

 

Verse 27 tells us what will happen in the last week (the last seven years). This week is said to begin when the prince that shall come, from verse 26, confirms the covenant with many. This is believed to be the Anti-Christ confirming the covenant with many, which includes the people of Israel. In the middle of this week of seven years (~3.5 years into the last seven years of this age) the Anti-Christ will defile the Temple. Paul provides more details concerning what he actually does to defile it (2Thes 2:3-4).

 

It is this defiling of a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem that Jesus refers to in Matthew 24:15. It takes place in the middle of the last seven years of this "aeon" or age. Prior to it was the birth pangs or beginning of sorrows that Jesus foretold (Matt 24:4-8). These birth pangs closely correspond to what John the Apostle records that he saw at the opening of the first 3 seals (Rev 6:1-6).

 

Mat 24:21  For then (when the abomination of desolation takes place vs 15) shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

So, we see that it is Jesus who associates the seventieth week with His return. Jesus presents the abomination of desolation as the notable sign which indicates the beginning of the unprecedented level of persecution of the elect that He called great tribulation (thlipsis). Daniel records when it takes place, in the midst of the week. Therefore, the great tribulation begins in the midst of the week.

 

Some believe that all seventy weeks have already been fulfilled.

 

It makes little difference in understanding the events which lead up to Christ’s return whether one understands Daniel's seventy weeks prophecy as I have presented it, the rest of Scripture still points to the fact that the unprecedented persecution of the elect (great tribulation) begins when the Antichrist (Beast, man of sin) defiles the temple and that he continues for only 42 months (Rev 13:5) after which he is defeated by the Lord and cast alive into a lake of fire.

 

To those who see the seventy weeks as past history, for the sake of being on the same page, when I say seventieth week, I am referring to the last seven years prior to the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom here upon the earth. Let's get back to the question at hand.

 

Is the seven years prior to the setting up of the millennial kingdom the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord?

 

If we work backward from the Beast being cast alive into a lake of fire as described in Revelation 19 we can identify the general time period when God's wrath begins to fall in the last days.

 

The Beast will overcome the Saints, have authority over all kindreds, tongues, and nations, and continue 42 months.

 

Rev 13:4  And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

The Dragon gives the Beast his power (authority) and it only lasts 42 months then he is cast into the lake of fire

 

Dan 7:21  I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22  Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

Those who are worshiping the Beast are told that they shall fall under the wrath of God

 

Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

These three verses show that God's wrath is the result of worshiping the Beast. The Beast and those who will worship him are recipients of God's wrath. The Beast is not an instrument of God's wrath. The Beast is an instrument of Satan's wrath. Satan, the Dragon, gives him his power. Satan does this when he and the angels who follow him are cast to the earth by Michael in the middle of the week (~3.5 years before the establishment of the millennial kingdom).

 

Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

The saints (holy ones) are recipients of Satan's wrath not God's

 

Satan persecutes the saints through the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers. This he does in the 3.5 years prior to the setting up of the millennial kingdom. Jesus spoke of this persecution taking place after the beginning of sorrows. He said:

 

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (thlipsis), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

Jesus warns that the real danger is not the physical death and suffering that His followers will go through but the falling away (apostasia) that Paul referenced (being offended and departing from the faith) which is the result of the intense persecution and the great deception. Those who follow the Beast will persecute the elect, but they will be tribulated (thlipsis) for their violence against us when Christ returns. We, the saints, will experience Satan's wrath, but the Beast worshiping earth dwellers will experience the wrath of the Almighty. Paul speaks of this very thing:

 

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

Paul says that the persecuted elect (the church) can rest from tribulation when Christ is revealed with His mighty angels.

 

Jesus essentially says the same thing. He says that:

 

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

The tribulation of those days, the great tribulation, is cut short (vs 22) as Jesus said it would be by the cosmic sign which announces His arrival at His coming (Parousia). John recorded his divinely inspired expectation of Christ’s coming and there is nothing secret about it just as Jesus said (Mat 24:27-28)

 

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

He also recorded what he was shown when the sixth seal was opened. It is the cosmic sign which announces Christ’s arrival. Notice that the earth dwellers who will have been worshiping the Beast are hiding because they know that God’s wrath is about to fall upon them.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

John witnessed the cosmic sign which precedes Christ’s coming and the day of the Lord.

Jesus is arriving in the clouds with the holy angels and His wrath will fall upon the Beast worshiping earth-dwellers after He gathers His own unto Himself. The day of wrath has come, the vengeance that the martyred souls under the alter cried out for and were told that they must wait a little season for is about to happen.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

John records these events in precise order (Rev 6-8)

Fifth seal martyrs including those of the great tribulation crying for God’s wrath to fall in vengeance upon those Beast worshipers who persecuted them but are told not yet. At the opening of the sixth seal John sees the cosmic sign that signifies Christ’s arrival is at hand and witnesses the earth-dwellers hiding because they realize God’s wrath is about to fall upon them. The 144,000 Israelites are sealed. The resurrected and rapture church is seen before the throne of God in Heaven. The seventh seal is opened and John witnesses ½ hour of silence in Heaven followed by the blowing of the first trumpet bringing the first stroke of God’s wrath upon the earth-dwellers.

The wrath of God begins with the first trumpet after the seventh seal

What John sees with the opening of the first 5 seals is not the wrath of God. Seals 1-3 correspond to the events of the beginning of sorrows that Jesus spoke of. Seals 4 and 5 are associated with the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation. The sixth seal announces that the day of the Lord has arrived, but the wrath doesn’t begin to fall until the seventh seal is opened and the first trumpet is blown.

The wrath falls on the day of the Lord

There is almost no contention with the truth that God’s wrath falls in the future period of time identified as the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It is God’s wrath in the day of the Lord that we are not appointed unto. Paul mentions that it takes place at Christ’s coming (Parousia).  

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul says that the day of Christ (the Lord) will not come until the man of sin (the Beast) is revealed in the Temple and the notable falling away, that results from his violent persecution of the saints and great deception, takes place.

A unique cosmic sign will take place prior to the commencement of the day of the Lord. The same cosmic sign that John witnessed at the opening of the sixth seal.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 

The day of the Lord cannot come until after the cosmic sign that John witnessed, and Jesus spoke of (Matt 24:29). Therefore, the wrath of God doesn’t fall until after the great tribulation has been cut short by Christ’s return and our rescue.

Each of the pre-trib misunderstandings below has been addressed to some degree or another in this post.

- The seventieth week is the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord. 

Wrong

- God uses the Beast as an instrument of His wrath upon the tribulation saints.

Wrong

- God's wrath begins with the opening of the first seal.

Wrong

- The great tribulation is for the Jews, the church will not be present.

Wrong

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Greetings Steve,

Do you mind me asking who is the author of the article you pasted here?

I believe there is a good chance the rapture occurs around the 6th seal because I believe the raptured church is shown in 7:9-17. 

However, it is still an open issue with me as to the timing of the 6th seal. 

Pre wrath says in the second half of the week, about two years after AOD. 

Believe it or not, there are Some pre tribbers who are now saying the 6th seal begins BEFORE THE WEEK BEGINS with the rapture occurring at that time, and rejecting the traditional pre Trib view that the rapture has to be before the first seal.

Im not aware of any camp saying sometime in the first half of the week. So, I am looking at this to see if IT IS  POSSIBLE that the 6th seal could occur sometime in the first half of the week with the rapture to immediately follow, rather than the 2nd half or even before the week. 

I listen to everyone.....and of course I look at what people say and compare with scripture. 

Edited by Spock
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On 2/9/2019 at 12:15 PM, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. Mad, apostasia refers to a religious departure, not the rapture. It is that which Jesus spoke of in Matt 24:10 "and many shall be offended" when they face severe persecution. There is not a single reference in all of the known historic Koine Greek literature where apostasia is used to communicate a physical departure. Every use communicated either a religious or political departure.  The KJV translators recognized the historic teaching of the church concerning apostasia and appropriately translated it "falling away" as to leave no ambiguity concerning its meaning.

The idea that this use of apostasia is the rapture is very recent. It is the latest attempt of the secret rapturists to provide some kind of support for the bankrupt pre-trib model for the rapture.

You have abandoned all use of grammar in your reading of the 2Thes 2 text. Try again.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

Yes, I have to agree with you on this one, Steve. I believe to say APOSTASIA means DEPARTURE (meaning bodies are raptured out) does seem like a stretch in order to buttress a position.  I read the reasoning behind it and just couldn’t accept it. I still cast my vote that apostasia means a falling away of ones beliefs. 

Having said that, it could be the correct interpretation, but I don’t “feel” it. 

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20 minutes ago, Spock said:

Yes, I have to be honest and say, I agree with you on this one. I believe to say APOSTASIA means DEPARTURE (rapture) does seem like a stretch in order to buttress a position.  I read the reasoning behind it and just couldn’t accept it. I still cast my vote that apostasia means a falling away of ones beliefs. 

Having said that, it could be the correct interpretation, but I don’t “feel” it. 

without relying on any interpretation,   it is obvious and true in history and in line with all Scripture that most people fell away from the faith,  observed even by those who do not know any Scripture.

also,  whatever and whenever (and if) there is some other type of carrying away,  this does not change that.

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On 2/24/2019 at 9:27 AM, OldCoot said:

What many I think fail to take in regarding Revelation 4 is the phrase in V1... "after these things".  The preceding two chapters had been about the churches. So from Chapter 4 onward is events that occur after the Churches if we maintain some grammatical integrity. 

By itself, that may not make any case regarding if the redeemed are no longer on the earth, but when one combines it with the 24 elders and how that relates to 1 Chronicles 24 and 1 Peter 2:9, then the combinatory factor makes the idea that the church has been removed at the beginning of Chapter 4.  

And regarding Yeshua not being seen in Chapter 4, I think that V2 gives us what we need when, again, a person views this thru the lens of scripture, especially getting back to basics....

Revelation 4:2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

Deuteronomy 6:4  “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!  

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.

Especially in light of....

Matthew 28:18  And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

One should probably avoid establishing a doctrine on what one thinks the text doesn't say.  Unlike the maxim in Law where silence implies consent, Just because the Lamb is not mentioned in Chapter 4 does not imply that He isn't there.   Actually, the Torah is quite clear that before anything can be established, it must be confirmed on the testimony of two witnesses.  Well, looking at Deuteronomy 6:4 and John 10:30, that fulfills the requirement of the Torah regarding two witnesses (OT and NT) confirming something.

And since everything has been given the Son by the Father, and the Lord is One, then there is not any real distinction regarding the Wrath of God.  Yeshua is opening the scroll seals. It is by His hand that climatic events occur on the earth.   So the wrath of the Lamb starts at seal one.  

The structure of Chapter 6 and those upon the earth stating "wrath has come" is not saying it has just come at that point.. seal 6.  The aorist tense of the Greek (past tense) in Revelation 6:17 suggests that they have finally come to the realization and are acknowledging what has already happened, that the wrath of the Lamb is what had been going on all along.  

So it is legit to hold that the wrath began at seal one.  And by extension, the church is already gathered and hidden from the wrath as expounded throughout the scripture.  

Greetings OC,

i read your words here and they don’t make it for me. I know the trinity is one, but I think when Jesus ascended to Heaven he had his own space and it was different from the father. If you agree with that, the fact that no mention was made about Jesus and only “the one” should tell you, it was only the Father they saw. 

Sorry, but I vote for Jesus not being there too.....probably on Earth still doing His thing to save mankind.

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On 2/26/2019 at 5:10 PM, iamlamad said:

I think that when the kingdoms of the world are given to Jesus, that is a very strong hint of the millennial change - right there at the 7th trumpet. Adam's 6000 year lease will have ended, and suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to the world - so he is cast down and the world given to Jesus Christ. However, God will have some cleaning up to do!

Why do you think the kingdoms are given to JC after the 7th trumpet and not the 7th bowl?  

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3 hours ago, Spock said:

Good stuff here Rev Man, but I now am perplexed about something. I’ve asked this elsewhere but maybe you missed it. 

It appears Jesus is not in Heaven in Rev 4 and actually doesn’t show up till 5:6 where he takes the scroll and opens the seals.

question: if Jesus wasn’t  in heaven in 4, do you agree that he was then still on Earth? And if you agree he was still on earth, how can the 24 elders represent the church if the church is still on earth along with Jesus?  Thanks brother. 

He's not on earth, Rev. 4 is about God the Father, Rev. 5 is about the Redeemer Jesus.

Rev.  4 has the Four Covering Cherubim Angels,  called Beasts. They praise God who is eternal. Then in Rev. 5 they sing Worthy is the Lamb. There wee no chapters and verses man put that together. Chapters 4 and 5 IMHO, go together, God the Father is praised and Jesus the Redeemer is praised. Jesus according to the PASSAGE is not in Heaven, NOE ON EARTH nor UNDER THE EARTH, thus hes a NOWHERE MAN. 

The facts are Jesus has been in Heaven before the Church Age ended, and chapter 3 ends the Church Age. Who ever is saying Jesus is not in Heaven during the Church Age is just way off kilter. Paul tells us Jesus is in Heaven offering a once and for all sacrifice for us. Rev. 2 and 3 represent the Church Age, so we know Jesus is in Heaven at that time, the Scriptures tell is he is.

 

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