Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Would it make a difference if I told Jesus told me so.

It might. Would you tell us word for word what He said?

[iamlamad]

15 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

This just shows how your view subverts the authority of God the Father over God the Son.   As I pointed out and you ignored,  God the Father is the one who determines the time in which he will righteously judge the world: 

*[[Act 17:31]] KJV* Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

I have pointed out other scriptures that tells us that the "righteous judgment" of God is both a day of wrath and revelation: 

*[[Rom 2:5]] KJV* But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of WRATH and REVELATION of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT of God;

Verse list:    
2Th 1:5-8 KJV    Which is a manifest token of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense [TRIBULATION TO  THEM] that trouble you; And [TO  YOU  who are troubled REST] with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

As a foremost tenet of pretrib,  the preeminence and foreknowledge of the rapture is known only to the Father:

*[[Mar 13:32]] KJV* But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, BUT THE  FATHER.

And as such,  the judgment of God found in the 6th seal or any seal, [under your views]  IS subverted by the worthiness/ qualification of Jesus, to open any of the seals.  Put in simpler terms,  because the timing of the rapture falls under the authority of God the Father,  Jesus is unqualified and not worthy to open any seal that brings forth the judgment of God, until the rapture takes place.  Therefore,  your illogical theory subverts the authority of God the Father. 

Blessings

The PuP 

Some people IMAGINE that the seals are God's judgment. What? Is God judging the martyrs? Get real! The first seal is the gospel sent forth; the second, third and fourth are Satan's attempts to stop the gospel. The 5th seal is for church age martyrs. 

So Jesus has ALREADY opened 5 of the 7 seals, and no judgment yet. The rapture WILL COME before the 6th seal is opened - so your argument is a non argument.  I guess you know, God the Father COULD NOT open the seals. That job needed a MAN. This is one of the reasons Jesus came to take on human flesh - so SOMEONE one day would be found worthy to take the book and open the seals. Trust me in this: Jesus did not do this outside of the Father's will! 

Therefore, I have subverted nothing.  Take off your preconceived glasses and read chapters 4 & 5 over and over. Ask God to reveal HIS intent to you.  Ask yourself WHEN a search could have been made for one worthy to take the book,  and Jesus NOT found worthy.

Ask yourself WHEN someone (anyone) could have looked into the throne room and NOT seen Jesus at the right hand of the Father. 

Finally, ask yourself WHEN Jesus ascended and when the Holy Spirit was sent down. 

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I said nothing against your beliefs about the first 5 seals.   If you believe that the judgment of God is contained in the 6th seal then  Jesus is not currently qualified to open it,  even if the others have been opened.   The rapture must come first before it can be opened,  and that authority tests in God's hand..

Blessings

The PuP 

I am not sure I buy your argument  - but it is a moot point, because the rapture WILL come before wrath comes. You can count on it. 

[Montana Marv]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Some people IMAGINE that the seals are God's judgment. What? Is God judging the martyrs? Get real! The first seal is the gospel sent forth; the second, third and fourth are Satan's attempts to stop the gospel. The 5th seal is for church age martyrs. 

Lamad

When have the Seals #2-4 taken place;  When was peace taken from the earth (when has the earth been in peace), and men began to slay each other?  When have we received wheat or barley for a days wage, why do we not still have this condition?  When was 1/4th of the earth killed by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts (animals) of the earth?

There are no logical situations where any of these have taken place.  These affect all peoples upon this earth, not Believers.  Matt 16: 16-19 - Peter said, "You are the Christ, the son of the living God". v.18 and I tell you that you are Peter, and upon this rock (what Peter stated in v. 16) I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.... Yet if and when there is Peace on this earth during the first 3 1/2 years of the 70th Week and Israel is living safely, and all are following the beast of Chp 13, then Peace can be taken away by the Rider on the First Horse.  Once the Two Witness show up and then the A/D is set up in the Temple, then the First Seal can be opened.

Satan already knows he cannot stop the spreading of the Gospel.  Seals 2, 3 and 4 all come from Heaven, not from Satan.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Lamad

When have the Seals #2-4 taken place;  When was peace taken from the earth (when has the earth been in peace), and men began to slay each other?  When have we received wheat or barley for a days wage, why do we not still have this condition?  When was 1/4th of the earth killed by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts (animals) of the earth?

There are no logical situations where any of these have taken place.  These affect all peoples upon this earth, not Believers.  Matt 16: 16-19 - Peter said, "You are the Christ, the son of the living God". v.18 and I tell you that you are Peter, and upon this rock (what Peter stated in v. 16) I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.... Yet if and when there is Peace on this earth during the first 3 1/2 years of the 70th Week and Israel is living safely, and all are following the beast of Chp 13, then Peace can be taken away by the Rider on the First Horse.  Once the Two Witness show up and then the A/D is set up in the Temple, then the First Seal can be opened.

Satan already knows he cannot stop the spreading of the Gospel.  Seals 2, 3 and 4 all come from Heaven, not from Satan.

In Christ

Montana Marv

First, WHERE? Where is this 1/4 of the earth? It MUST be centered on Jerusalem where the gospel started. That would include then, Europe, the Middle East and Africa.  This is the theater of operation the Red horse and rider, the Black horse and rider, and the Pale horse are rider are allowed to work in. 

Ask yourself, WHERE did the two world wars start? Europe. 

WHERE did the black plague hit  - twice - both times killing nearly 1/3 of the people? Europe!

WHERE has there been famine after famine even in the last hundred years? Africa. 

These things have been ONGOING for centuries. These riders have been busy.

Note: it DOES NOT SAY 1/4 of the earth is killed. Go back and read it again: it is giving the theater of operation - WHERE they are allowed to ride.

The first horse are rider are to represent the GOSPEL being sent forth. 32 AD. 

We are in "peace and safety" NOW. WHOEVER said the first half of the week would be peace? It is a rumor!

Sorry, you are simply mistaken. God is not into starving people to death. God is not into plagues. He does not have any of the stuff.

[iamlamad]

On 3/7/2019 at 10:41 PM, Da Puppers said:

Then Jesus is still standing before the throne unqualified to open the 6th seal or any other seal. 

Blessings

The PuP 

I could not disagree more! He is very qualified; but it is not TIME for the 6th seal yet. 

Why disagree with the written word?

⁵ And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

In your theory this works fine because you view this as a past event.   John says the whole book of revelation is a book of prophecy: 

*[[Rev 22:18]] KJV* For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

*[[Rev 22:19]] KJV* And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Just as the woman giving birth signifies that Jerusalem has not become the kingdom city of Jesus,  so is the whole of the book prophetic of things that shall come to pass in the Day of God when he shall judge the secrets of men's hearts by that man whom he has appointed.   You have denigrated revelation into a history book and not a book of prophecy. 

Blessings

The PuP 

In chapter one it is very easy to see John was alive: it was 95 AD. In chapter 22, it is far far into our future, after the 1000 year reign of Christ and the great, white throne judgment. Therefore somewhere inbetween these two chapters must be where we are NOW. Spock would agree with his logic!  

In spite of what you think, some of Revelation is history, but most of it is future. 

I am neither adding nor taking away - I am only understanding what is written.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Three points. 

1. Revelation is a about things which must shortly take place. 

*[[Rev 1:1]] KJV* The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2.  The letter to the 7 churches is from the 7 spirits AND from Jesus,  the PRINCE of kings: 

*[[Rev 1:4]] KJV* John to the seven churches..., FROM him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and FROM  the seven Spirits which are before his throne;*5* And FROM  Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the PRINCE of the KINGS  of the EARTH. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

3.  The sum of the book is prophetically addressed to the 7 churches,  and not the body of Christ in general. 

For starters you understand that most of it is future.   But it's the part that you think is history is what is your hangup.  And the part that you feel that falls into the historical category is the letters to the 7 churches.   The relevance of the letters is for when the 7 spirits (one for each church)  comes.   It does not come into play until the 7 spirits have been sent into all the earth, Rev 5:6.

*[[Rev 5:6]] KJV* And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

I am not going to go into detail of things,  primarily because you see the letters as historical and because of that,  you can't grasp the big picture, and almost no one does.   What is the big picture? 

Firstly,  the children of Israel will be here during all of the end times,  what we would call the 70th week.   The 7 spirits will be dwelling in and ministering to the 7 churches during these times.   Secondly,  these churches are historical in nature,  but are addressed to churches that will exist in the future,  during these end times.   How can that be?   The children of Israel will be scattered into the whole world during these days of great troubles,  and will be gathered unto 7 places where they will exist as a church/ congregations, that will not exist until after the 7th trumpet sounds.   You can't even grasp how Israel is the focus of things.   The letters to the churches are all about bringing Israel into a right relationship with God during this time between the setting up of the kingdom and when Jesus returns at Armageddon.    Circumventing the prophetic nature of the 7 letters into a historical nature puts a permanent cloud over anyone trying to understand the matter.   Because of your "personal revelation" of understanding,  all efforts to convince you otherwise,  have been and will continue to be futile.   So,  go ahead and disagree all you want.   The blindness is on your own heart and you can't even see it.   Have a wonderful life. 

Blessings

The PuP 

It is amazing to me how people argue against truth. 

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass..."

Question: DID God show John (And then in turn John to us) "things" that must shortly come to pass? 

Answer: Absolutely YES.  MOST of Revelation was about John's future - and much is still about OUR future today.

Some would argue about the word "shortly."  The Greek word's meaning is "a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state)" 

It is not wise to build a doctrine on such a Greek word! Here is how KJV used this word translated here as "shortly:"

 in (1,902x), by (163x), with (140x), among (117x), at (113x), on (62x), through (39x), miscellaneous (264x).

Do you see "shortly" in this list? No, it is under miscellaneous list. These things WILL take place, and in their set or fixed time arranged by God. It goes without saying that God sees time a lot differently than we do. Some Greek words are very difficult to translate exactly into English. 

Most people seem to read this verse as if it had another word inserted:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants [ONLY] things which must shortly come to pass..."

Note carefully in all the Greek texts: that word  is not there! God left Himself free to include some history - which He did.  For example, WHEN in time or before time did Satan and 1/3 of the angels get kicked out of heaven? It was long before Adam was created. 

 It does not come into play until the 7 spirits have been sent into all the earth, Rev 5:6.  That happened as soon as Jesus ascended.  It should go without saying that some of the book is still far into OUR future. Those seven churches disappeared and are no more. Do people therefore tear Revelation our of their bibles because it is not for today? No, it is as pertinent today as it was then. 

For starters you understand that most of it is future.   Agreed.

But it's the part that you think is history is what is your hangup.  No, it is YOUR hangup because you don't recognize that it is truth.  I guess from your point of view, this is still future:  "his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth..."

The Pulpit commentary says, "In describing the vast power of the devil, St. John seems to allude to the tremendous result of his rebellious conduct in heaven, in effecting the fall of other angels with himself." 

Vincent's Word Studies says:  "Some expositors find an allusion to the fallen angels."

David Guzik Commentary says:  "Many believe this describes one-third of the angelic host in league with Satan (his angels of Revelation 12:9). This army of angelic beings in league with Satan makes up the world of demonic spirits."

I think you have put God in a small box in thinking everything in Revelation MUST be future.

You can't even grasp how Israel is the focus of things.  On the contrary, chapters 8 through 16 are Daniel's 70th week is is directed at ISRAEL, not the church. And the seven churches were JEWISH churches. John was a Jew. Our Messiah was and still is a Jew. 

[JoeCanada]

On 3/5/2019 at 1:13 PM, iamlamad said:

You are simply mistaken. What is happened here in these verses?

² And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

³ And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Notice, "no man was found worthy..." 

What is this telling us? First, it destroys your argument above. It tells us that there was a time when Jesus was not found worthy to open the seals. 

If these were the only clue, one could possibly say that the angels just missed Jesus in this search. However, this is NOT the only clue.

We have a throne room in chapter 4, where John DID NOT see Jesus at the right hand of the father.  

We have a throne room in chapter 4 where the Holy Spirit is there - when we would expect, in 95 AD that He should have been sent down. Actually, in chapter 5, Jesus suddenly shows up and the Holy Spirit IS sent down - but we know this happened in 32 AD or there about. 

Face the truth here: there was a time when Jesus was NOT found worthy. Do you know why?

 

iamlamad,

You said...."We have a throne room in chapter 4, where John DID NOT see Jesus at the right hand of the father. "

But......he did see Him. Look:

Rev 4: 8b......" HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come"

Who do you think this is, that the four living creatures, day and night, do not cease to say this to?

Who is it? Who is to come?

Rev 22:20...." He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come Lord Jesus.

 

[iamlamad]

Just now, JoeCanada said:

iamlamad,

You said...."We have a throne room in chapter 4, where John DID NOT see Jesus at the right hand of the father. "

But......he did see Him. Look:

Rev 4: 8b......" HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come"

Who do you think this is, that the four living creatures, day and night, do not cease to say this to?

Who is it? Who is to come?

Rev 22:20...." He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come Lord Jesus.

 

I know, you like to think that John saw the Father on the throne, and saw the one who is to come seated at the Father's right hand.  I guess you WANT it to say that, but the truth is, it does not.

One sat on the throne. ³And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. ⁴ Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads. ⁵ And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

⁶ Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back.

Sorry, not Jesus seen at the right hand of the Father. Over a dozen verses tell us that is where John should have seen Him - in the throne room of 95 AD - but John did not see Him. Strange, for Stephen saw Him.

In 95 AD Jesus had left the throne, to be born of a virgin. God prepared a body for Him. He grew up, did His ministry, died on the cross, rose from the dead, and ascended back into heaven. What further "coming" is there? Yes, in due time He will come to earth again - but is that the meaning of "was, is and is to come?" I think this is just a way of saying that God our Father is forever.