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Why Pretrib Logic Fails


JoeCanada

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3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

They only bury those who attacked them once, before the 1000 years.  They burn the weapons of war for 7 years, oops, another 7 years before the 1000 years.  During this time they bury the dead for 7 months

They bury no one after the 1000 years.  For all are consumed.

Two different events, with two different outcomes.  Gog and Magog attack 7 years prior to the 1000 years, then they attack immediately after the 1000 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Gog Magog cannot occur 7 years prior to the 1000 years because that timeframe will not work. The rider on the white horse goes forth conquering and to conquer. God does not send fire upon Gog and his armies at that time. Additionally just prior to the 1000 years ALL nations come against Israel. It just plain will not fit in that timeline. But it will fit exactly where God says it goes AFTER the 1000 years when Satan is loosed to deceive the nations.

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34 minutes ago, The Light said:

 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army,

 

It sounds as if Gog is a chief prince that is brought forth with his army

Ezk 38:16 - You (Gog) will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land.  A cloud has the appearance of many, not one.  And who is Caesar?  How many were there.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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26 minutes ago, The Light said:

Gog Magog cannot occur 7 years prior to the 1000 years because that timeframe will not work. The rider on the white horse goes forth conquering and to conquer. God does not send fire upon Gog and his armies at that time. Additionally just prior to the 1000 years ALL nations come against Israel. It just plain will not fit in that timeline. But it will fit exactly where God says it goes AFTER the 1000 years when Satan is loosed to deceive the nations.

It can happen before the rider on the white horse even appears.   Let's just say immediately after the Rapture occurs, there is panic throughout the world.  The United States in disorder, not able to protect Israel.  Israel becomes easy picken's (as they think) to overtake the Land of Israel.  God intervenes and kills 5/6ths of these invading armies.  The A/C now emerges and makes a 7 year agreement with them.  Israel is employed to bury the dead for 7 months, and will burn the weapons of war for 7 years.   It takes about 7 years for a country to rebuild their military.

Yes, after the 1000 years all nations come against Israel, but not so in Ezk 38,39  with Gog and Magog and their hordes.  Specific countries are mentioned, not ALL.  All are destroyed after the 1000 years,  5/6ths are killed before the 1000 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

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5 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

 

It can happen before the rider on the white horse even appears.   Let's just say immediately after the Rapture occurs, there is panic throughout the world.  The United States in disorder, not able to protect Israel.  Israel becomes easy picken's (as they think) to overtake the Land of Israel.  God intervenes and kills 5/6ths of these invading armies.  The A/C now emerges and makes a 7 year agreement with them.  Israel is employed to bury the dead for 7 months, and will burn the weapons of war for 7 years.   It takes about 7 years for a country to rebuild their military.

Yes, after the 1000 years all nations come against Israel, but not so in Ezk 38,39  with Gog and Magog and their hordes.  Specific countries are mentioned, not ALL.  All are destroyed after the 1000 years,  5/6ths are killed before the 1000 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

No. All nations come against Israel before the 1000 years. Only Gog and his allies which are listed come after the 1000 years. Is it really that hard to put Gog Magog after the 1000 years like the word says?

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5 minutes ago, The Light said:

No. All nations come against Israel before the 1000 years. Only Gog and his allies which are listed come after the 1000 years. Is it really that hard to put Gog Magog after the 1000 years like the word says?

Satan is in charge with deception after the 1000 years, those who follow, follow him, not Gog and Magog.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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wow

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2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Satan is in charge with deception after the 1000 years, those who follow, follow him, not Gog and Magog.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Satan deceives the nations. That would be Gog and the other nations that attack Israel

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8 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi D-Dawn,

I see the events in Ezekiel 38-39 the same as those at the battle of Armageddon Rev 19: 11-21, not in Rev 20.......

  • Israel is living in false security (Ezek. 38:11). Look at Israel today. It does not live securely. Only a deceptive peace treaty will fool them into doing so.
  • God refers to Gog as “you are the one of whom I spoke in former days through my servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days for many years that I would bring you against them” (Ezek. 38: 17 NASB). This can only refer to the Antichrist, and the Antichrist only arises and attacks Israel at the Midpoint of Daniel’s 70th Week.
  • God states that he will rain hail, fire, and brimstone on the forces of Gog. (Ezek. 38:22) This only occurs during the First Trumpet judgment. This time stamps that event as occurring at the beginning of the Seventh Year of the 70th Week of Daniel.
  • After God defeats Gog and his army, God feeds them to the birds of the air (Ezek. 39: 17-20). This is an exact match with Rev. 19: 17 -18 where God calls the birds to gather to feast on the bodies of the Antichrist forces after the Battle of Armageddon.
  • God calls Gog’s forces a cloud that covers the land which is a match with God’s description of them in Joel 2:2.
  • After the battle, the Jewish captives are released and brought back to the land (Ezek. 39: 25-28). This happens after the Battle of Armageddon, and cannot happen prior to that point according to all the other pictures of the 70th Week . This passage also claims that from that day forward, God will not allow a single Jew will be left behind in the nations. This is rock solid evidence that this can only refer to the end of the 70thWeek.
  • After this battle, God will not let his Holy Name be profaned any more (Ezek. 39: 7). This can only happen at the conclusion of the 70th Week of Daniel. 
  • After the Battle, Israel knows the Lord is God from that point on forever (Ezek. 39: 22). Again, this can only happen at the conclusion of the 70th Week.
  • God announces that this “is the day of which I have spoken” (Ezek. 39:8 NASB).
  • After the battle, God pours out his Spirit on Israel (Ezek. 39:29).
  • Finally, in Ezek. 38: 19-20 we learn that Jesus is physically present on the earth. As we have seen all of these aspects can only be fulfilled at the conclusion of Daniel’::s) 70th Week and at no other time.

For all these reasons, the battle of Gog of Magog can only be the Battle of Armageddon, and Gog can only be the Antichrist

Yes, there is a Gog and Magog war in Rev 20 as well. This war is over real quick. " A fire came down from heaven and devoured them". That's it. Poof! Gone! 

- Unless I have completely overlooked key verses, I don't see that Israel is living in peace during the invasion described in Ezekiel. Prosperous as God promised in detail in Ezekiel 36, but no mention of peace is mentioned...again, unless I am overlooking something. Israel is already experiencing some of the prosperity God promised. Economy is booming, population is expanding, military is mighty, technology is cutting edge...etc..

 - Gog is described as the leader of "Meshek and Tubal" (38: 1-2; 39:1-2) not the world. This prince will lead the invasion described against Israel. Allies of "Mershek and Tubal" are listed in following verses... still very specific by name and location.

- God declares His purposes of the miraculous destruction of this massive army multiple times...so the nations will know He is God...and as another proof (after Dry Bones) to Israel that He is God. This demonstration to the world that He is indeed God would definitely set the scene for the massive harvest during the Tribulation.

- Jews started coming home to the LAND as soon as the State of Israel was established in 1948 and they are still coming today. I think many more are yet to come, but this prophecy has already been set in motion. Battle of Armageddon may result in a huge wave coming, but it's not the only time Jews come home.

- God told Ezekiel this miraculous destruction would happen in an hour...suddenly.

- God's Name will no longer be profaned. It appears He is talking about Israel at this point...to contrast all of her sins in the past. How the nation continued to offend Him with idols, etc... God says in 39:23-24 the nations will understand that Israel was sent into exile as punishment for sins. God did it, not the nations He used to do it. This doesn't seem to be judgment on the nations yet.

- If this war were the final war on the earth, how could the Israelites spend over 7 yrs cleaning up the carnage?

- I don't see a conflict between God pouring out His Spirit on Israel in Ezekiel 39 and this battle being something other than Armageddon.

- I think you must have noted the wrong passage when you described verses describing Jesus being physically on the earth. Ezek. 38:19-20 doesn't indicate that at all.


Again, I don't claim to know all the answers and I cringe anytime someone acts as if they do on the forums. My desire is to sharpen iron here.
 

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8 hours ago, D-Dawn said:

- Unless I have completely overlooked key verses, I don't see that Israel is living in peace during the invasion described in Ezekiel. Prosperous as God promised in detail in Ezekiel 36, but no mention of peace is mentioned...again, unless I am overlooking something. Israel is already experiencing some of the prosperity God promised. Economy is booming, population is expanding, military is mighty, technology is cutting edge...etc..

 - Gog is described as the leader of "Meshek and Tubal" (38: 1-2; 39:1-2) not the world. This prince will lead the invasion described against Israel. Allies of "Mershek and Tubal" are listed in following verses... still very specific by name and location.

- God declares His purposes of the miraculous destruction of this massive army multiple times...so the nations will know He is God...and as another proof (after Dry Bones) to Israel that He is God. This demonstration to the world that He is indeed God would definitely set the scene for the massive harvest during the Tribulation.

- Jews started coming home to the LAND as soon as the State of Israel was established in 1948 and they are still coming today. I think many more are yet to come, but this prophecy has already been set in motion. Battle of Armageddon may result in a huge wave coming, but it's not the only time Jews come home.

- God told Ezekiel this miraculous destruction would happen in an hour...suddenly.

- God's Name will no longer be profaned. It appears He is talking about Israel at this point...to contrast all of her sins in the past. How the nation continued to offend Him with idols, etc... God says in 39:23-24 the nations will understand that Israel was sent into exile as punishment for sins. God did it, not the nations He used to do it. This doesn't seem to be judgment on the nations yet.

- If this war were the final war on the earth, how could the Israelites spend over 7 yrs cleaning up the carnage?

- I don't see a conflict between God pouring out His Spirit on Israel in Ezekiel 39 and this battle being something other than Armageddon.

- I think you must have noted the wrong passage when you described verses describing Jesus being physically on the earth. Ezek. 38:19-20 doesn't indicate that at all.


Again, I don't claim to know all the answers and I cringe anytime someone acts as if they do on the forums. My desire is to sharpen iron here.
 

Just to follow up on your narrative;

Ezk 36 is a promise to restore Israel to their land.  37 is their restoration.  38 - 39 is their battle after restoration .  40 - 48 is about their millennial temple and their land.  This kind of puts it perspective.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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10 hours ago, D-Dawn said:

- Unless I have completely overlooked key verses, I don't see that Israel is living in peace during the invasion described in Ezekiel. Prosperous as God promised in detail in Ezekiel 36, but no mention of peace is mentioned...again, unless I am overlooking something. Israel is already experiencing some of the prosperity God promised. Economy is booming, population is expanding, military is mighty, technology is cutting edge...etc..

 - Gog is described as the leader of "Meshek and Tubal" (38: 1-2; 39:1-2) not the world. This prince will lead the invasion described against Israel. Allies of "Mershek and Tubal" are listed in following verses... still very specific by name and location.

- God declares His purposes of the miraculous destruction of this massive army multiple times...so the nations will know He is God...and as another proof (after Dry Bones) to Israel that He is God. This demonstration to the world that He is indeed God would definitely set the scene for the massive harvest during the Tribulation.

- Jews started coming home to the LAND as soon as the State of Israel was established in 1948 and they are still coming today. I think many more are yet to come, but this prophecy has already been set in motion. Battle of Armageddon may result in a huge wave coming, but it's not the only time Jews come home.

- God told Ezekiel this miraculous destruction would happen in an hour...suddenly.

- God's Name will no longer be profaned. It appears He is talking about Israel at this point...to contrast all of her sins in the past. How the nation continued to offend Him with idols, etc... God says in 39:23-24 the nations will understand that Israel was sent into exile as punishment for sins. God did it, not the nations He used to do it. This doesn't seem to be judgment on the nations yet.

- If this war were the final war on the earth, how could the Israelites spend over 7 yrs cleaning up the carnage?

- I don't see a conflict between God pouring out His Spirit on Israel in Ezekiel 39 and this battle being something other than Armageddon.

- I think you must have noted the wrong passage when you described verses describing Jesus being physically on the earth. Ezek. 38:19-20 doesn't indicate that at all.


Again, I don't claim to know all the answers and I cringe anytime someone acts as if they do on the forums. My desire is to sharpen iron here.
 

Hi D-Dawn,

Again, I don't claim to know all the answers and I cringe anytime someone acts as if they do on the forums. My desire is to sharpen iron here.

I hope that you are not implying that it seems like I have all the answers. I don't. I too believe that with dialogue, we can help one another sort out Scriptures and come to an agreement on what they say. You're right, iron sharpens iron.

- Unless I have completely overlooked key verses, I don't see that Israel is living in peace during the invasion described in Ezekiel.

Perhaps what we are overlooking is the period right before the invasion. Israel is not living securely today. But when they enter into a deceptive covenant with the antichrist at the start of the 70th week of Daniel, then they will "seem" to live securely. They will once again have a temple (of some sort) and begin sacrifices. The covenant is said to be "with the many"....Daniel 9:27.....so other nations/faiths are implied.


 - Gog is described as the leader of "Meshek and Tubal" (38: 1-2; 39:1-2) not the world. This prince will lead the invasion described against Israel. Allies of "Mershek and Tubal" are listed in following verses... still very specific by name and location.

From what I have studied, I believe these will be the nations:

And the word of the Lord came to me saying,  “Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog (Turkey), the prince of Rosh (see explanation below), Meshech (Turkey), and Tubal (Turkey), and prophesy against him and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.  I will turn you about (remember Daniel ‘you will turn back’) and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them splendidly attired, a great company with buckler and shield, all of them wielding swords;  Persia, Ethiopia (actually Sudan) and Put (Libya) with them, all of them with shield and helmet;  Gomer (Turkey/Assyria) with all its troops; Beth-togarmah (Turkey/Assyria) from the remote parts of the north with all its troops—many peoples with you. (Ezek. 38: 1-6 )

If this war were the final war on the earth, how could the Israelites spend over 7 yrs cleaning up the carnage?

I don't see any problem with this cleaning up and burying bodies and burning weapons etc,  going into the start of the millennium. There will be a lot of cleaning up and restoration around the world during the millennium, at least in the beginning. Jesus is not going to restore everything to a pristine condition when He comes back. There will not be a new heaven and a new earth until the 1,000 years are up. At least, that's the way I see things from scripture.

- I think you must have noted the wrong passage when you described verses describing Jesus being physically on the earth. Ezek. 38:19-20 doesn't indicate that at all.

"and all the men who are on the face of the earth will shake at My presence"....Ezekiel 38: 20

I should have went all the way down to Ezekiel 38:23....

"I will magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations, and they will know that I am the Lord"

I appreciate the dialogue. Thanks for your reply. Let's sharpen some more iron shall we.

 

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