Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[D-Dawn]

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Again, I don't claim to know all the answers and I cringe anytime someone acts as if they do on the forums. My desire is to sharpen iron here.

I hope that you are not implying that it seems like I have all the answers. I don't. I too believe that with dialogue, we can help one another sort out Scriptures and come to an agreement on what they say. You're right, iron sharpens iron.

Oh no! I'm sorry if I gave the impression YOU are a know-it-all. We all see the sporadic posts by people think they have a direct line to God and have definite interpretations where scholars have debated for centuries. Usually they involve one sentence stances with no Scripture to develop a stance.

I'm sorry Joe...didn't mean you at all.

[D-Dawn]

14 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

- Unless I have completely overlooked key verses, I don't see that Israel is living in peace during the invasion described in Ezekiel. Prosperous as God promised in detail in Ezekiel 36, but no mention of peace is mentioned...again, unless I am overlooking something. Israel is already experiencing some of the prosperity God promised. Economy is booming, population is expanding, military is mighty, technology is cutting edge...etc..

I don't think I've ever quoted MYSELF in the forums before. lol

I would like to correct the statement I made regarding Israel not living at peace during the Ezekiel invasion. I contradicted myself even. Assuming the invasion takes place near the beginning of the Tribulation (70th Week) Israel is of course "at peace" because the anti-Christ will have already come to power and united the world under his satanic schemes.

[D-Dawn]

16 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Just to follow up on your narrative;

Ezk 36 is a promise to restore Israel to their land.  37 is their restoration.  38 - 39 is their battle after restoration .  40 - 48 is about their millennial temple and their land.  This kind of puts it perspective.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Ya, nice and chronological in Ezekiel.
 

[Isaacsname]

There are traditions in exegesis of texts that were handled by / pertaining to the lines of priest-kings in Mesopotamia that held that certain things were only revealed to certain folks, like the Maggid revealed ( A tutelary spirit )

People who engage in long-winded arguments about things in the Bible may have missed this rather critical truth

[Montana Marv]

8 minutes ago, Isaacsname said:

There are traditions in exegesis of texts that were handled by / pertaining to the lines of priest-kings in Mesopotamia that held that certain things were only revealed to certain folks, like the Maggid revealed ( A tutelary spirit )

People who engage in long-winded arguments about things in the Bible may have missed this rather critical truth

I would like to trust the exogenous of priests and Kings who along with others have written the O.T.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Isaacsname]

Well...there's 4,000+ years of amazing literature and tradition behind the Bible, much of it online for study

It always surprises me how people will accept an extra-biblical source of literature, when it comes to corroborating something in the Bible, like historical accounts of people, places or events, but then they will turn around and claim pre-Biblical literature and traditions are irrelevant when it comes to Bible study

For me, personally, the Bible did not start to make any sense until I learned it's foundations

 

 

 

[Salvation67]

Mid trib and post tribe theorys just don't make sense. I can't understand how people can believe our Lord and Savior would allow his His children to be persecuted and killed off in such a manner just because it happened in the OT, the number of people persecuted in the OT were many but in a larger scope, there were few per capita and nowhere near the number that will be persecuted and killed in the tribulation and those who are are those saved after the gathering (rapture) The arguments for mid and post trib just dont jive. Just my two cents on a million dollar topic.

[OldCoot]

On 2/13/2020 at 3:16 PM, Salvation67 said:

Mid trib and post tribe theorys just don't make sense. I can't understand how people can believe our Lord and Savior would allow his His children to be persecuted and killed off in such a manner just because it happened in the OT, the number of people persecuted in the OT were many but in a larger scope, there were few per capita and nowhere near the number that will be persecuted and killed in the tribulation and those who are are those saved after the gathering (rapture) The arguments for mid and post trib just dont jive. Just my two cents on a million dollar topic.

I have a similar thought, but view it from a different perspective.

It is no so much of a protecting the Bride from persecution (as many anti pre 70th week folks like to claim), as persecution has been a part of our existence since Yeshua returned to the Father.   It is more of a matter of understanding what the purpose of the tribulation period is and who is the central focus of that time.

And it is the central focus of that time which is central to setting the stage for Yeshua to return to the earth to take over.

That central focus is Jacob/Israel.    It was because of their rejection of Him that caused Him to return to His place, and it will be their acknowledgement of that rejection, turning to Him, and petitioning for His return before He will.

Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

"their affliction" is the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah30) which correlates with the 70th week of Daniel 9.  

While indeed, the Lord will pour out His wrath on the world during that time, that is not the purpose of the period.   The purpose is to drive Jacob/Israel to the wall and giving them no alternative but to call out to the Lord and petition for Messiah to rescue them.   

And the bride of Messiah, the church, has no part in that purpose.   Therefore the Bride has no purpose in going thru that time.   The Bride is united with the Groom at the marriage chamber and the marriage consummated while the events that are to transpire on the earth run their course.  And the Bride returns with Messiah when He comes to take over and rule.    It is only Christian arrogance that seems to think that everything that happens in the plan's and purposes of God involves the Church and Believers.

Edited February 16, 2020 by OldCoot

[Salvation67]

@OldCoot  Right on. Now that makes sense! Why can't the doom lovers see that? The cut and paste of scripture can never be used for a basis of belief of a theory. Well said brother.

[Montana Marv]

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

The question needs to be asked,  "When does Israel's blindness end? "

Rom 11:25-27 KJV    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN  PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

1. Does their blindness end when the 70th week begins?

2. Does their blindness end when the covenant is confirmed? 

3. Does their blindness end when the great tribulation begins? 

4. Does their blindness end when the great tribulation ends? 

5. Does their blindness end when the man of sin is revealed? 

6. Does their blindness end when the rapture takes place?

When we read the full context of the Romans 11 passage,  we find that partial blindness is to be replaced by no blindness at all.   But, two questions must be answered. 

A.  What is that blindness? 

B. And how is it to be removed? 

Romans 11 answers both questions in one fell swoop. 

 

[B.].The Deliverer shall come to Zion, and [A.] turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 

What Paul is saying is that [partial]  blindness equates to ungodliness.   Contrariwise, the blindness is removed when ALL OF ISRAEL,  is walking in godliness.   Paul goes even further to say that it is the Deliverer coming to Zion that will accomplish that purpose. 

The implication is that Israel's blindness and Gentile fullness are intricately related.   Both must be simultaneously true.   The underlying premise of pretrib is that God deals with the church,  THEN, when finished,  he deals again with Israel.  But is that true?   What constitutes "dealing with the church" and "dealing [only]  with Israel "?

I think this is where the problem lies.   UNTIL ungodliness has been removed from Jacob,  the fullness of Gentiles has not come in.   Ask yourself these questions,  CAN THE CHURCH STILL BE HERE IF...

1. a covenant is confirmed with an ungodly nation?

2. ritual sacrifices take place on temple mount by an ungodly nation? 

3.  ungodliness pervades the people of God? 

How is God going to turn away ungodliness from Jacob? 

Verse list:    
Eze 39:25-26 KJV    Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the WHOLE HOUSE of ISRAEL, and will be jealous for my holy name; AFTER that they have BORNE their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

This will be nothing short of when God begins to bring judgment of Jerusalem and the ensuing great tribulaion.    
Jer 25:29-30 KJV    For, lo, I BEGIN to bring EVIL on the CITY which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them,

The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout,

as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

Do you see what was said there?   THE LORD HIMSELF,  shall utter his voice from his holy habitation of Jerusalem...

[Saying]  The Lord has a controversy with ALL the nations and a sword shall go forth into all the nations,  aka, the mark of the beast.   Do other scriptures support the idea that the Lord will come to Zion and utter his voice?   Yes! 

Verse list:    
Joe 2:11 KJV    And the LORD shall UTTER his VOICE before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joe 3:16 KJV    The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and UTTER his VOICE from JERUSALEM; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Amo 1:2 KJV    And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and UTTER his VOICE from JERUSALEM; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.

I know that few will be able to grasp the thought of the Lord coming to Zion at anytime before the 2nd advent at Armageddon,  but this will be the jixt of what the great tribulation is all about... removing ungodliness from Jacob.  

Mat 24:16 KJV Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:...

Mat 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Joel 2 & 3 equates that day,  when the Lord shall utter his voice from Jerusalem with:

1. Shaking the heavens and the earth,  and,

2. The day of the Lord's wrath.

This is what we see with the opening of the 6th seal:

Rev 6:14 KJV And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 6:17 KJV For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It's right there in scripture and yet people still miss it.

1Th 4:16 KJV For the Lord himself shall DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Does Israel's blindness remain in part UNTIL the 2nd advent?  Then so will the rapture not happen until then.   Does the removal of ungodliness from Jacob mean that they will be saved by keeping the law rather than by faith?   Absolutely not.   Keeping the law of God will be their schoolmaster that brings them to faith in Christ.   Without faith they will not be heirs according to the promise made to Abraham.   They will not be allowed to enter the promised land until they come to faith. 

Rom 11:27 KJV For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

Israel's blindness ends at the Second Coming. The fullness of the Gentiles is at or near the Second Coming. The Bride which is made up of Jew and Gentiles is different than the fullness of the Gentiles. Gentiles from all nation's will enter the Mill. Yet the Bride is gone well before the Second Coming. An angel flying in midair will proclaim the Gospel during the 70th Week. No need for the Church.

In Christ

Montana Marv