Jump to content
IGNORED

Why Pretrib Logic Fails


JoeCanada

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

And so,  do you believe Daniel when he said that he saw himself inn the vision? 

Blessings

The PuP 

Is this a nice sidestep to avoid my statement? Here it is again:
 

You are ignoring the key verse:  "And in the latter time of their kingdom..."

Ignore this and you miss Daniel's entire meaning.

Daniel tells us WHAT "end" he is referring to: it is the end of the four general's kingdoms. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  3,131
  • Content Per Day:  0.69
  • Reputation:   1,091
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  11/03/2011
  • Status:  Offline

On 2/20/2019 at 4:13 PM, OldCoot said:

AI am sure you know that time is a dimension and it is relative to mass among other things.  Tell me, how much mass does a soul have?  None!  There is no way for these martyred saints to measure time. They are not going to be able to take their iPhone or Rolex with them.

when one studies the dynamics of time, one can come to the realization that by being outside the dimension of time, Enoch, Moses, Paul, and these martyrs might actually arrive to that area at the same time.  Not saying they do, but we must avoid putting the constraints of our physical existence onto the spiritual one.

remember, the scripture says we will see Him as He is because we will be as He is.  And that is far beyond the dimensions of space and time that we experience now.

Also kind of like how much does a computer chip, floppy, scan disc weigh full compared to empty.  It weighs the same.

1 Cor 13:12 - Now we see in a mirror darkly, then we shall see face to face, then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Once in Heaven we will have knowledge of who prayed for us in time of need, who gave us favor, who prayed us into the Kingdom.  Likewise others may come to us and say how our support of a missionary allowed them to receive Christ, How our prayers to an unknown group affected a specific individual. How our giving affected another persons life.  Our Rewards of knowing what we really accomplished here on earth in helping others.  Like a Praise thread in Heaven.

In Christ

Montana Marv

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

On 2/20/2019 at 10:09 AM, iamlamad said:

There is no sense in continuing since you have no idea Scripturally where God's wrath begins. 

We disagree on TOO much. Good luck with your theories. I hope they work out for you!

God's wrath begins at the sixth seal. This is after the 5th seal which shows the death of the faithful in Our Lord Jesus. This is the only moment when it can begin and it's well into the last week. Notice how tribulation must be occurring as there are many martyrs under the altar, and more to come, at the 5th seal. Tribulation, then wrath. Tribulation is not wrath, wrath is not tribulation. The persecutions of the saints at the hand of beast is the tribulation that ends at the coming of our Lord, when wrath then begins. No other timeline is possible, if one remains scripturally steadfast.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

On 2/20/2019 at 10:06 AM, iamlamad said:

The seals (1 through 5) are not judgment. They are just church history.

I have heard this from you many times. Do you have any proof by way of the written word this is the case? And I don't mean your take on the 1st seal, equating the rider on the white horse with the gospel, I'm wondering if you have book, chapter, and verse to prove this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

On 2/22/2019 at 4:02 AM, Diaste said:

I have heard this from you many times. Do you have any proof by way of the written word this is the case? And I don't mean your take on the 1st seal, equating the rider on the white horse with the gospel, I'm wondering if you have book, chapter, and verse to prove this.

Of course I do! I would not believe this otherwise. It is the CONTEXT of the first seal, which is the entire two chapters, 4 & 5. When we study these two chapters, it points to the timing of 32 or 33 AD. Notice these points:

In chapter 4, Jesus was not in the throne room, not at the right hand of the father - but we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been seen. This shows us timing. In all of time, past to future, there has only been 32 years that the second person of the Godhead was NOT at the right hand of the first person of the God head. After He rose from the dead, He ascended right back to where He had been. 

We see a search was made for one worthy to open the seals, but that first search John got to watch ended in failure. Again this shows us timing. He had to rise from the dead before He could be found worthy.

We see the Holy Spirit there in the throne room in chapter 4 (as the 7 spirits of God) but Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. Again it shows us timing: Jesus had not yet ascended. 

When we get into chapter 5, time has passed and things changed: suddenly Jesus WAS found worthy. And then John saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.  In these two chapters we see TIMING and the MOVEMENT of time. The timing points to the very moment Jesus ascended and got the book into His own hands.  

Both of these chapters show us the timing of the first seal was when Jesus ascended: 32 AD. 

I considered the color white: John used white 17 times in Revelation - ever OTHER time to represent righteousness. In my mind it would be silly to even think God would use "white" at the first seal to mean anything else. 

I considered the word overcoming or conquering. It fits the church fulfilling the commandment to GO. Satan is the god of this world, and he would fight tooth and nail (so to speak) to prevent the gospel going ANYWHERE. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

On 2/22/2019 at 3:52 AM, Diaste said:

God's wrath begins at the sixth seal. This is after the 5th seal which shows the death of the faithful in Our Lord Jesus. This is the only moment when it can begin and it's well into the last week. Notice how tribulation must be occurring as there are many martyrs under the altar, and more to come, at the 5th seal. Tribulation, then wrath. Tribulation is not wrath, wrath is not tribulation. The persecutions of the saints at the hand of beast is the tribulation that ends at the coming of our Lord, when wrath then begins. No other timeline is possible, if one remains scripturally steadfast.

Sorry, but you are simply mistaken. The 5th seal is only the martyrs of the church age. The martyrs of the 70th week do not show up until chapter 15. Here, at the 5th seal, is the first time (from seals 1 to 5) that we see a long time of waiting. God is waiting for that last church age martyr. WHEN will that be? It will be at the moment of the pretrib rapture that will end the church age. Paul shows us that a moment later the DAY of the Lord will begin.  

You are jumping the gun on the start of the week. I have said over and over the week does not begin until the 7th seal with the 30 minutes of silence. In fact, THE DAY must begin first, then the 70th week. 

Notice how tribulation must be occurring as there are many martyrs under the altar  God considers THE ENTIRE CHURCH AGE as "tribulation." Much of the church age has been "great tribulation," when martyrs were being killed. How can "tribulation" get any greater for a martyr? They cannot be killed twice. It IS tribulation when martyrs are killed. It is GREAT tribulation for the martyrs. But this is church age. You cannot end the church age and start the Day of the Lord until you get to the 6th seal. 

Agreed: tribulation is not wrath and wrath is not tribulation.....it SOUNDS good, and many people say it. It IS true for the church age. The TRUTH is, God begins His wrath before the 70th week begins, and continues His wrath all through the week. EAch trumpet judgment and each vial comes with His wrath. But by the time of the vials, He is really angry at a world that will not repent.  The TRUTH then is that when Satan's anger has caused the murder of the saints to reach its peak, then God pours out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT. In other words, it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate in time, God's wrath and Satan's wrath, for they are concurrent. 

The persecutions of the saints at the hand of beast is the tribulation that ends at the coming of our Lord, when wrath then begins  This is, of course, nonsense, because it does not follow John's timeline. One must rearrange things to come to this conculsion. In other words, it is simply not scriptural. You are trying to force the persecution of the saints before the 6th seal. That is a classic prewrath debacleNo one has the right to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory. 

Now let me ask you the same question you asked me: SHOW US scripture to prove this statement.  You have already said that wrath begins at the 6th seal. You wish to prove that "tribulation" causes the martyrs, and I would agree with you: CHURCH AGE tribulation. 

To end confusion, you could use the term, "the 70th week." Many church people call this "the tribulation."  It is confusing, since God calls the church age "tribulation." John in the first chapter wrote, "I John in THE tribulation." It is strange, the word "the" is there in every Greek text, but no translation wishes to include it! 

You have one verse in your favor, for Jesus did say, "“Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."

I guess if Jesus called it "the tribulation" you can also.  Jesus may have been thinking of the last half of the week, or all the week. We don't know. 

If we follow John, it is church age, then WRATH (beginning at the 6th seal) THEN the 70th week and after the midpoint days of GREAT TRIBULATION.  Where then is your proof of reversing what John wrote?

 at the coming of our Lord, when wrath then begins  You just said that wrath begins at the 6th seal, and now you say at the coming. I see His coming in chapter 19, AFTER the tribulation (chapters 8 through 16). 

The truth is, Jesus comes PRETRIB (without wrath) FOR His saints just before the 6th seal. Then the rapture TRIGGERS the start of the DAY and the 70th week soon follows. I chose to follow JOHN's chronology, not yours.

Edited by iamlamad
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but you are simply mistaken. The 5th seal is only the martyrs of the church age. The martyrs of the 70th week do not show up until chapter 15. Here, at the 5th seal, is the first time (from seals 1 to 5) that we see a long time of waiting. God is waiting for that last church age martyr. WHEN will that be? It will be at the moment of the pretrib rapture that will end the church age. Paul shows us that a moment later the DAY of the Lord will begin.  

You are jumping the gun on the start of the week. I have said over and over the week does not begin until the 7th seal with the 30 minutes of silence. In fact, THE DAY must begin first, then the 70th week. 

If something is factually incorrect saying over and over does not make it correct. Any scripture to back it up?

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 God considers THE ENTIRE CHURCH AGE as "tribulation." Much of the church age has been "great tribulation," when martyrs were being killed. How can "tribulation" get any greater for a martyr? They cannot be killed twice. It IS tribulation when martyrs are killed. It is GREAT tribulation for the martyrs. B

Well, you miss the point of great tribulation. It's not for believers in Jesus only. It comes upon the whole world. John can say the persecutions he and our brethren suffered is tribulation in isolated pockets where believers either live or preach the gospel; it was that way then and it's that way now. Great tribulation is coming to test the whole world and this is what makes it 'great'; scope, duration and intensity. The scope will be the entire world and every person in it, it will last till it "should be shortened" or "there should no flesh be saved: The scope alone differentiates this as "megas" tribulation covering the whole earth; compared to tribulation in isolation and proximity to groups of the elect. 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Agreed: tribulation is not wrath and wrath is not tribulation.....it SOUNDS good, and many people say it. It IS true for the church age. The TRUTH is, God begins His wrath before the 70th week begins, and continues His wrath all through the week. EAch trumpet judgment and each vial comes with His wrath. But by the time of the vials, He is really angry at a world that will not repent.  The TRUTH then is that when Satan's anger has caused the murder of the saints to reach its peak, then God pours out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT. In other words, it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate in time, God's wrath and Satan's wrath, for they are concurrent. 

Yeah, that makes sense, God and Satan are doing a time share, partnering, as it were.

In every example in scripture that I know of, Noah and Lot (There are others I'm sure), God's wrath did not fall on the target of that wrath till the faithful were taken out of the path of that wrath. To claim that believers are on earth during God's wrath is a position that is in direct contradiction to written scripture, the examples in scripture, and the tenets of the Pretrib doctrine (and every doctrine on the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect). 

If pretrib hangs their hopes on the early rapture to save their hides from the wrath of God, why is it pretrib also states believers will endure the wrath of God? Like you contend in your statement above?

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The persecutions of the saints at the hand of beast is the tribulation that ends at the coming of our Lord, when wrath then begins  This is, of course, nonsense, because it does not follow John's timeline. One must rearrange things to come to this conculsion. In other words, it is simply not scriptural. You are trying to force the persecution of the saints before the 6th seal. That is a classic prewrath debacleNo one has the right to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory. 

I feel you need to be more precise in your statements. You say tribulation, the persecution of the saints, is the entire church age, nearly 2000 years. Obviously then the saints are persecuted before the 6th seal, and have been. But you're mixing terms and definitions and interpretations in any case. Matt 24 lays it out in the only timeline available to us from start to finish, a timeline which must occur in the lives of a single generation,

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know  that it is near, [even] at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." - Matt 24

"So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." - Mark 13

"So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." - Luke 21

"All these things" are the events and circumstances in the above mentioned Gospels: Matt 24:5-30, Mark 13:3-26, Luke 21:7-26, e.g., false Christs, the A of D, megas tribulation, the sign of Jesus coming.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;" Not John's anything. Jesus owns this and our Father gave it to him. John had zero ownership here.

 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Now let me ask you the same question you asked me: SHOW US scripture to prove this statement.  You have already said that wrath begins at the 6th seal. You wish to prove that "tribulation" causes the martyrs, and I would agree with you: CHURCH AGE tribulation. 

Scripture has done that. You are free to believe as you wish.

"God begins His wrath before the 70th week begins, and continues His wrath all through the week. Each trumpet judgment and each vial comes with His wrath. But by the time of the vials, He is really angry at a world that will not repent.  The TRUTH then is that when Satan's anger has caused the murder of the saints to reach its peak,"

But I think saying God's wrath is upon the earth while saints are on the earth tell us all we need to know about your interpretation of prophecy.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

To end confusion, you could use the term, "the 70th week." Many church people call this "the tribulation."  It is confusing, since God calls the church age "tribulation." John in the first chapter wrote, "I John in THE tribulation." It is strange, the word "the" is there in every Greek text, but no translation wishes to include it! 

Dispensationalism is such a lame doctrine. Not one shred of proof exists for this claim. I guess if one starts believing in make believe anything is possible.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If we follow John, it is church age, then WRATH (beginning at the 6th seal) THEN the 70th week and after the midpoint days of GREAT TRIBULATION.  Where then is your proof of reversing what John wrote?

You can follow John if you wish, I'll stick with following the Lord.  I always appreciate questions of the loaded variety. They let me know the inquisitor is seeking an agenda and not the truth.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

 at the coming of our Lord, when wrath then begins  You just said that wrath begins at the 6th seal, and now you say at the coming. I see His coming in chapter 19, AFTER the tribulation (chapters 8 through 16). 

"12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" -Rev 6

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, Jesus comes PRETRIB (without wrath) FOR His saints just before the 6th seal. Then the rapture TRIGGERS the start of the DAY and the 70th week soon follows. I chose to follow JOHN's chronology, not yours.

I wish you luck in that endeavor. When it doesn't happen the way you think I'll be here for you, look me up.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Of course I do! I would not believe this otherwise. It is the CONTEXT of the first seal, which is the entire two chapters, 4 & 5. When we study these two chapters, it points to the timing of 32 or 33 AD. Notice these points:

In chapter 4, Jesus was not in the throne room, not at the right hand of the father - but we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been seen. This shows us timing. In all of time, past to future, there has only been 32 years that the second person of the Godhead was NOT at the right hand of the first person of the God head. After He rose from the dead, He ascended right back to where He had been. 

I know we have been over this very trying bit of rationalization. Let me raise the objections to the logical difficulties with this.

1) Absence of proof is not proof of absence. In other words just because his presence is not mentioned does not mean He is not present. I would say that Jesus was present as He said many times He and the Father are One, and if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Since the Father is there in the throne room, Jesus was as well. 

2) The text does not provide clues to Jesus location prior to Rev 5:6

3) "No man" was found worthy. Jesus was never a 'man'. Jesus was the Word made flesh. A god-man. Fully God and fully flesh at the same time. Equating the Creator to man to fulfill the bad idea of lumping Jesus in with created flesh is near to denying the deity of Jesus.

4) Timing. The Rev was given to John in 95 AD. So which is it? Is it 33 AD or 95 AD? You cannot have both.

5) Rev 1. 

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars:and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear {not; I am the first and the last: 18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 

This is Jesus, clearly glorified, among the candlesticks, which I have no doubt are in the throne room.

6) Rev 3:21.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. "

Already seated on the throne before the supposed absence you propose, and in 95 AD, well after your take on the 33 AD timing.

Rev 4:11 and John 1:3) 

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." - Rev 4

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." -  John 1

Pretty clear this is Jesus they are worshiping in Rev 4

 

Quote

We see a search was made for one worthy to open the seals, but that first search John got to watch ended in failure. Again this shows us timing. He had to rise from the dead before He could be found worthy.

What search? This is simply speaking to the proof man is not worthy and Jesus is. Rev 1 contradicts this idea of yours. "I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore," Already resurrected and ascended in the beginning of Rev.

Quote

We see the Holy Spirit there in the throne room in chapter 4 (as the 7 spirits of God) but Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. Again it shows us timing: Jesus had not yet ascended. 

Incorrect. This is 95 AD when John received this of Jesus. Pentecost occurred 60+ years prior to this.

Quote

When we get into chapter 5, time has passed and things changed: suddenly Jesus WAS found worthy. And then John saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.  In these two chapters we see TIMING and the MOVEMENT of time. The timing points to the very moment Jesus ascended and got the book into His own hands.  

It's really sad when stuff like this happens. Jesus was worthy from the foundation of the world. To say he was only worthy after a certain point in time denies the deity of Jesus; refusing to understand Jesus created all things and He is, and was, and always will be, God Almighty.

Quote

Both of these chapters show us the timing of the first seal was when Jesus ascended: 32 AD. 

Sixty years before the Rev was given? Contradicting your own arguments again? How could he be there in 33 AD and then not there in 95 AD? 

Quote

I considered the color white: John used white 17 times in Revelation - ever OTHER time to represent righteousness. In my mind it would be silly to even think God would use "white" at the first seal to mean anything else. 

If a color were enough to come to a logical conclusion then sure, but it's not. What you are saying is, "White, therefore the Gospel."  It's tantamount to saying, "Belief, therefore truth." 

Quote

I considered the word overcoming or conquering. It fits the church fulfilling the commandment to GO. Satan is the god of this world, and he would fight tooth and nail (so to speak) to prevent the gospel going ANYWHERE. 

Of course you miss the idea of a person on the horse. An individual rides the white horse, it an individual that is armed, a conqueror, not the gospel. And it's not white that is the sole bit of evidence, it's a white horse, the most emphatic symbol of the conqueror, used by the leader of conquering armies for...well...ever. Jesus is seated on a white horse in Rev 19. You might as well say Jesus is the rider of the white horse in Rev 6, it would make as much sense.

Edited by Diaste
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  84
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  3,987
  • Content Per Day:  1.13
  • Reputation:   2,517
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  07/17/2014
  • Status:  Offline

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, you miss the point of great tribulation. It's not for believers in Jesus only. It comes upon the whole world. John can say the persecutions he and our brethren suffered is tribulation in isolated pockets where believers either live or preach the gospel; it was that way then and it's that way now. Great tribulation is coming to test the whole world and this is what makes it 'great'; scope, duration and intensity. The scope will be the entire world and every person in it

This is an important point that's often overlooked.  The events of the last days will bring tribulation to the entire world, however, the way that one is affected by this tribulation will depend on who they serve.  Satan wages war against the godly and God judges the ungodly with plagues.  The whole purpose is to force everyone to choose who it is they serve.  When Jesus returns, there will be no need for inquisition.  Tribulation will have already revealed the answer.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  14
  • Topic Count:  66
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  6,599
  • Content Per Day:  2.00
  • Reputation:   2,355
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  03/17/2015
  • Status:  Offline

13 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Tribulation will have already revealed the answer.

A fearsome reality.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...