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JoeCanada

Why Pretrib Logic Fails

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5 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Well one can do that, if he doesn't understand the structure if the verses in context then he doesn't understand the passage at all. Read Rev 17:6 and the exact same writer (John) distinguishes between the Martyrs of Christ and the Saints !!

Rev. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

So in reality John is speaking about the Jews when he references Saints and about the Gentile Christian when he mentions Martyrs, though both are in essence Saints, John is seemingly trying to purposefully distinguish between the two. Now looking back at Daniel 12 again, we see the Prophecy is about the Jews in the last days and Michael is going to stand up and help them at that time. After the Rapture people will repent and come to the Lord, that in itself defeats the argument you made. There will be Christians and repented Jews (1/3 repent and flee Judea), so why would that passage stop the pre tribulation Rapture ? Answer, it wouldn't.

The Church can not be overcome in full, we are the RESTRAINING POWER in 2 Thess 2, via the Holy Spirit power in us. Once we are removed, the Beast  or Anti-Christ/Little Horn is allowed to go forth Conquering and thus overcoming. As I stated above, this argument you make s dead in the water, after the Rapture the Jews repent and the REMNANT CHURCH Repents. We are in Heaven, Rev. chapters 4 and 5 prove this. This eventually become redundant.

Of course this is one of those instances my brother. In chapter 10 Daniel calls this "Man in Linen" Lord four times and describes him like this:

Dan. 10:5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain (1)man clothed in linen, whose (2)loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:

6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and (3)his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and (4)his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the (5)voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

 Rev. 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, (1)clothed with a garment down to the foot, and (2)girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his (3)eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And (4)his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;  and (5)his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And (6)when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, (7)saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

In Daniel 10:8-10 Daniel has fallen on his face into a deep sleep, really a tance of fear so to speak, then he was touched and lifted up and we get this.

Daniel 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and (6)stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling. 12 Then (7)said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel:

So taking all this into account, I think you will now agree with me that this Man in Linen is Jesus Christ !! Then in Daniel 12 we get this:

Dan. 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

I think we have established this a Jesus Christ here brother. And the prince of Persia who resisted him in Dan. 10 was Apollyon. 

Of course, thy are dealing with men, if Apollyon had of relented (remember, Satan still has the title deed to the earth and mankind) then the next Beast would have just been Greece sooner. He did not want to entice Alexander the Great to Conquer Persia as God ordered, so Jesus and Michael had to entice Alexander the Great to make Greece the new Beast by Conquering Persia. There is a reason it's called Spiritual battles. We are in one every day.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.  

God wants us all to serve him, but Satan kills, steals and destroys AND LIES !! Jesus has to battle by influencing human kind. He doesn't treat us as slaves or a computer program brother.

That portion was a minor point of my post to be honest. But it is Jesus IMHO. You don't take into account how many Souls Satan wins to hell every day. It is not a fait accompli, Jesus has to persuade mankind via the Holy Spirit to follow him or his will. Of course he is greater than Satan, but people have their own will, Jesus does not violate this, else we would not be responsible for our own actions. So Jesus and Michael hot involved, and WHAT HAPPENED?

Alexander the Great Conquered more land mass faster than anyone in history I would think, so much so he was deemed the Leopard Kingdom. 

 

I will yield and agree to disagree.  I  don't see much point in continuing from here. 

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4 hours ago, Jostler said:

I will yield and agree to disagree.  I  don't see much point in continuing from here. 

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Jostler, welcome to the forum. We need more contributors who let the Scriptures speak instead of reading false systems into the text.

Glory be to the Lamb

Edited by George
Removed snide comment toward another poster.
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18 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Jostler, welcome to the forum. We need more contributors who let the Scriptures speak instead of reading false systems into the text.

Concerning Babel Man, I have learned that any attempt to instruct him is a fool's errand.

Glory be to the Lamb

He has 166 posts, so I  doubt he is new here, you just wanted to throw out your ad hominem attack, and you get away with it because I don't report people on a message board, but since you have used it 15-20 times I am going to report you from now on STARTING TODAY. 

You are not capable of teaching me anything sir unless its of God and I don't already understand the issue. What you are really saying is because I don't follow your logic I am wrong. I know more about the books Revelation or Daniel than anyone you have ever known in all likelihood. 

God Bless brother. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Revelation Man
  • Please stop fighting!  Thanks!  :) 1

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1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Concerning Babel Man, I have learned that any attempt to instruct him is a fool's errand.

Glory be to the Lamb

Instruct or pass on only what you think is correct.  I don't agree with much of your end times senero's either.  If you are so knowledgeable; which 1/4 of mankind dies with the 4th Seal (it has to be somewhere),  Which 1/3 of the earth burns with the 1st Trumpet, and 1/3 of the sea turns to blood (2nd Trumpet), 1/3 0f the springs and rivers turn bitter (3rd Trumpet).  My, Oh my,where are their locations, have you, the instructor, been able to figure them out.  I would like to here from you on these end times events.  Location, location, location; they must have meaning and purpose, What are they?

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hint: Acts 1:10-11, and Rev 1:7

Edited by Montana Marv
added hint

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All of this discussion without stating WHAT the Tribulation actually IS!

Is there anyone here that doesn't believe the Tribulation is God's Wrath poured out on this world?

So then, from the Garden of Eden to the beginning of the Tribulation it has been mainly Satan pouring out his wrath on this world for the last 6,000 years, ...correct?

With that in mind, ...if the Church is on the planet during the Tribulation, then, ...did God lie to Abraham and He will punish the righteous along with the wicked?

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3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I know more about the books Revelation or Daniel than anyone you have ever known in all likelihood. 

 

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Instruct or pass on only what you think is correct.  I don't agree with much of your end times senero's either. 

Gentlemen,

It seems that no matter what scriptures are presented to refute the illogical fallacy of the pre-trib rapture will alter your preconceived notions. You can adhere to the teachings of Dr Thomas Ice, Jan Markell and a host of others all you want. They have been shown the error of their teachings by Joel Richardson, Alan Kurschner, Mark Davidson and Nelson Walters just to name a few. Yet, they press on. And why wouldn't they. Pre-trib is big money. 

No-one wants to hear what pre-wrath teaches. Who wants to hear that they will suffer during the Great Tribulation. Very few. That they may have to lay down their lives. Few. That they won't be able to buy or sell, feed their kids. Few. That they will suffer terrible persecution. Few. Yet, that is what Scriptures plainly teaches.

Revman....you say you have been teaching for, what, 30 years or so. What does that prove. If what you teach does not line up with Scripture, then it is all in vain. Jesus warns us about teachers, that they will be judged harder than others, if their teaching is not correct. 

JW's used the same line when they come calling. We've been teaching for many years. Well, it doesn't matter how long they've been teaching, if what they are teaching is wrong.

I'll put this challenge out.

Show me anywhere in Scripture that specifically points to a Pre-Trib Rapture. A specific verse that says the Resurrection and Rapture happen pre-trib. And show the timing of it with a Scripture. You should be able to do this with a few verses. 

A preacher put this challenge out to pre-trib teachers before. And he offered $1,000 to anyone who could provide proof from Scripture. He's still waiting.

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19 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Gentlemen,

It seems that no matter what scriptures are presented to refute the illogical fallacy of the pre-trib rapture will alter your preconceived notions. You can adhere to the teachings of Dr Thomas Ice, Jan Markell and a host of others all you want. They have been shown the error of their teachings by Joel Richardson, Alan Kurschner, Mark Davidson and Nelson Walters just to name a few. Yet, they press on. And why wouldn't they. Pre-trib is big money. 

No-one wants to hear what pre-wrath teaches. Who wants to hear that they will suffer during the Great Tribulation. Very few. That they may have to lay down their lives. Few. That they won't be able to buy or sell, feed their kids. Few. That they will suffer terrible persecution. Few. Yet, that is what Scriptures plainly teaches.

Revman....you say you have been teaching for, what, 30 years or so. What does that prove. If what you teach does not line up with Scripture, then it is all in vain. Jesus warns us about teachers, that they will be judged harder than others, if their teaching is not correct. 

JW's used the same line when they come calling. We've been teaching for many years. Well, it doesn't matter how long they've been teaching, if what they are teaching is wrong.

I'll put this challenge out.

Show me anywhere in Scripture that specifically points to a Pre-Trib Rapture. A specific verse that says the Resurrection and Rapture happen pre-trib. And show the timing of it with a Scripture. You should be able to do this with a few verses. 

A preacher put this challenge out to pre-trib teachers before. And he offered $1,000 to anyone who could provide proof from Scripture. He's still waiting.

Why do you contest God the Father.  God the Father is the only one who knows this time, Not the Son, nor the Angels.  Yet you say pre-wrath, others say mid-trib, and yet others say post-trib.  I never see you attacking these illogical fallacies.  You only attack pre-trib, Why because you are afraid of it. You must do something to show your worthiness. I must go through one more test to show my love for God.

But once the 70th Week begins, the clock starts ticking towards Armageddon and the 2nd Coming, which are both known dates and can be figured out.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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23 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Why do you contest God the Father.  God the Father is the only one who knows this time, Not the Son, nor the Angels.  Yet you say pre-wrath, others say mid-trib, and yet others say post-trib.  I never see you attacking these illogical fallacies.  You only attack pre-trib, Why because you are afraid of it. You must do something to show your worthiness. I must go through one more test to show my love for God.

But once the 70th Week begins, the clock starts ticking towards Armageddon and the 2nd Coming, which are both known dates and can be figured out.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi MM, 

I don't attack. I try and point out the illogical teaching of pre-trib. Why? No, it's not because I'm afraid of it. What I am afraid of is the new Christians that adhere to its teachings, thinking that because 90% of the Church believes it, well, it must be right. Everyone has bought into it because that is what the pulpit teaches. Many ministers just regurgitate what others teach, without even questioning it, or looking into the scriptures to see if it is right or not. What ever happened to being a Berean, checking Scripture to see if what is being taught is right.

For example.....Pre-trib says that Jesus does not know the timing of His coming for the Saints. I challenge that. Since it is He who opens up the seals, He knows when He is coming back.  Right after He opens up the 6th seal. He may not know the day or the hour, but He most certainly knows the timing. The cosmological event that Joel describes will last for several days, maybe even a week. It is during this time that the Father executes the time when His Son will come for His Saints, those dead and those alive. Resurrection and Rapture. The main harvest!

So, if you're not up for the challenge, I completely understand. 

Respectfully, 

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On 1/25/2019 at 2:58 PM, JoeCanada said:
  •       Why Pretrib Logic Fails Miserably on the Daniel’s Seventy-Weeks Prophecy          by Alan E. Kurschner

Here is the pretrib logic:

Pretribs reason that since the Seventy-Weeks prophecy in Daniel  9:24–27 was given to Israel,the Church cannot “exist” on earth during any of its fulfillment.

Here is why this common pretrib argument fails:

First, pretribs such as Crone would have to deny that the Church exists during the New Covenant fulfillment, since Jeremiah prophesied specifically to “the people of Israel and Judah.” (See Jeremiah 31:31–34). I am sure that Billy Crone would admit that he is a New Covenantbeliever.

Pretribs cannot have their cake and eat it too. This obvious logical inconsistency seems to escape their minds.

The New Covenant was not made with the Church, but the Church is governed under this covenant as the New Testament teaches that the New Covenant was extended to the Gentiles. We have to look to the New Testament for its progressive revelation to learn these matters.

Why can the New Covenant that was made to Israel be applied additionally to Gentiles, but the 70 weeks prophecy made to Israel cannot also include God working with the Church at the same time?

We are never told.

Billy Crone and other pretribs are myopic and do not allow the New Testament progressive revelation to give us more information about the particulars of the 70th week of Daniel.

Many more examples could be given from the Old Testament. Here is another one:

Peter in Acts 2:16-21 is citing from a prophecy from Joel that was given to Israel and applying it also to the new Church situation. You cannot have a more explicit OT prophecy made to Israel while also including an application of its fulfillment to the Church.

Second, pretrib logic on this issue simply does not follow. It makes a category error by confusing what with when.

They argue that since the Church did not exist during the first 69 sets of seven years (483 years), therefore the Church cannot be there for the last seven years. That is a non sequitur. It fails logically.

The fact that the Church did not exist at the time of the first part of this prophecy (69 sets of seven years, 483 years), who is to say that God is not going to work with both the Church and Israel during the last part of this prophecy? The Church does exist now. So logically it can be here for the last seven years.

When you allow for New Testament progressive revelation, you can learn more than what the Old Testament reveals. Imagine that!

And just to clarify these prophecies to Israel are not being replaced by the Church. The New Testament is simply telling us that God is expanding his redemptive program to the Gentiles, while he keeps his promises to Israel.

The Danielic passage is addressing Israel. Pretribs is trying to say more than it does by making it say that no other redemptive group can exist at that time.

Third, God has worked with both Israel and the Church at the same time in the past and he does in the present.

In the past:

Jesus made a prophecy to Israel about God’s judgment upon them (Matt 24:1–2; Luke 19:43–44).

When was this prophecy to Israel fulfilled? It happened in AD 70—during the Church age! Do you know where I am going with this?

Once again, why are we told that the prophecy to Israel about the 70 weeks excludes any fulfillment during the Church age, but a prophecy to Israel about its judgment is not?

When you have a theological system such as pretribulationism built on a web of assumptions, you will inevitably face internal inconsistencies.

In the present:

God also works with Israel and the Church at the same time, not just in the past, but the present:

“(19) But again I ask, didn’t Israel understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; with a senseless nation I will provoke you to anger.” (20) And Isaiah is even bold enough to say, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I became well known to those who did not ask for me.” (Rom 10:19–20)

“I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous.” (Rom 11:11)

“For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.” (Rom 11:25)

These passages teach that God in this present Church age is working with Israel to make them “jealous.”

These reasons are sufficient to show that pretrib logic fails miserably when they claim that the Church “cannot be here” for the last part of Daniel’s prophecy.

Hi Joe,

You are right about the assumptions being wrong. I agree that "part" of the Church will still be here during the tribulation. The ten virgins, slothful servant, "coins" and other parables in the same context illustrate a "partial" rapture. Although some are left behind, one question has to be were they "true" believers? The metaphors seem to pop up everywhere, (like the wheat and tares and wild olive branches being grafted into the vine), but always with a warning attached. 

Pre-trib logic (as well as pretty much all broadly accepted pre millennial outlines) fails because the false assumption of 7 remaining years cannot be accounted for without encountering major contradictions in the rest of Biblical prophecy. The end of the 69th week being the cross also cannot hold up to logic and reason when compared to both Biblical and historical evidence.

Anyway, I know you disagree with me on this right now, but I hope you can examine the end of the 69th week closer and maybe even at least try to look at prophecy with the assumption being only 3.5 years remaining instead of 7. It can all be understood much more clearly and logically than ever before.

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13 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi MM, 

I don't attack. I try and point out the illogical teaching of pre-trib. Why? No, it's not because I'm afraid of it. What I am afraid of is the new Christians that adhere to its teachings, thinking that because 90% of the Church believes it, well, it must be right. Everyone has bought into it because that is what the pulpit teaches. Many ministers just regurgitate what others teach, without even questioning it, or looking into the scriptures to see if it is right or not. What ever happened to being a Berean, checking Scripture to see if what is being taught is right.

For example.....Pre-trib says that Jesus does not know the timing of His coming for the Saints. I challenge that. Since it is He who opens up the seals, He knows when He is coming back.  Right after He opens up the 6th seal. He may not know the day or the hour, but He most certainly knows the timing. The cosmological event that Joel describes will last for several days, maybe even a week. It is during this time that the Father executes the time when His Son will come for His Saints, those dead and those alive. Resurrection and Rapture. The main harvest!

So, if you're not up for the challenge, I completely understand. 

Respectfully, 

He has already taken the Bride before He opens the Seals.  The 70 Seven year periods are all about Israel.  When the final One Seven is completed Israel will have accepted their Messiah.  Can you show me where the Church was involved in the fisrt 69 Weeks.

Yet, I show how pre-wrath, mid-trib, and post-trib positions are illogical.  They do not conform.  They provide many, many Scriptures to validate their positions, But Scripture says that is only, God the Father who knows the timing for the Rapture.  Jesus Christ is the written Word and He does not know its time.  So this throws your 6th Seal out the window.  Once the clocks timer begins, then all will be known.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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