Jump to content
IGNORED

Probability in Relation to Evolution/Apologetic Arguments against Evolution


theInquirer

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  7
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  57
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   13
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/26/2019
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  05/08/2002

Now it is very clear that the evolution of life from non-living particles is incredibly improbable and would take billions upon billions of attempts to accomplish life or even just a simple amino acid.  However, if the universe contains infinite matter, then there are infinite opportunities for life to evolve and therefore the low probability comes to be of no consequence.  So is there a way to prove that the universe does not contain infinite matter? And if not, is there a way to prove that this presence of infinite matter does not invalidate the arguments against evolution which involve probability?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  17
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  3,272
  • Content Per Day:  1.73
  • Reputation:   1,677
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/27/2019
  • Status:  Offline

On 1/27/2019 at 12:18 AM, theInquirer said:

if the universe contains infinite matter, then there are infinite opportunities for life to evolve

Evolution isn't dependant only on matter, but on 100% pure chemical;s that are also 100% left handed.

There is also the problem of mixing the right quantity of chemicals in the right order.

The problem of folding the assembled protins so they fit into the cell and the problem of asembling the cell wall and its internal compounents.

This is apart from the problem of assembling the instructions that tell the cell how to operate etc and of the reading machine of those instructions.

 

It is far simpler to say evolution is not possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  7
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  57
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   13
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/26/2019
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  05/08/2002

5 hours ago, Vince said:

I don't think we can answer this question as of yet.  We do know that the universe is a t least 46 billion light years in all directions from us.  If we do have an infinite universe then I don't think there is a way to get around the infinite opportunities.  I did read once that there is only a finite number of particles and a finite number of configurations of those particles particles that could fit in a 1 meter cubes piece of space.  There is an estimated 10^80 number of different particles in the universe and the probability of them being arranged in that 1 meter cubed space is 10^10^70.  This means that if the universe was infinite it would repeat itself over and over.  So maybe there is not an infinite amount of opportunities for life to begin in an infinite universe.  The bottom line is that no one knows yet.

Yes, that was basically my thinking.  I mean from a Biblical perspective, I don't know offhand of any verses that would be contradicted by there being an infinite number of me in the universe (because of there being infinite combinations of matter and therefore the combinations being repeated endlessly, as you pointed out), but it seems unlikely that there is extra-terrestrial life out there, just because of how, if that were the case, I guess Jesus would have had to die many times (for each race of people), but correct me if I'm wrong on that.

But yeah, from a scientific point of view, that's kind of where I'm stuck. . . we don't know how large the universe is, and therefore whether or not random processes could create certain structures, even if they're highly improbable.  

And don't get me wrong here, my faith is founded on the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is easily proven historically to be true.  The above discussion isn't like making or breaking my faith, for the record, I'm just interested in solidifying my apologetics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  29
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  730
  • Content Per Day:  0.16
  • Reputation:   49
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  07/19/2011
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  09/13/1993

On 1/26/2019 at 7:18 PM, theInquirer said:

Now it is very clear that the evolution of life from non-living particles is incredibly improbable and would take billions upon billions of attempts to accomplish life or even just a simple amino acid.  However, if the universe contains infinite matter, then there are infinite opportunities for life to evolve and therefore the low probability comes to be of no consequence.  So is there a way to prove that the universe does not contain infinite matter? And if not, is there a way to prove that this presence of infinite matter does not invalidate the arguments against evolution which involve probability?

Ok so there is a slight problem with the phrasing of your question here. Evolutionary biology is the study of mutations and speciation that occur in life. Abiogenesis is the study of how life came to be from basic chemical components like amino acids. While evolutionary biology is a well accepted and proven scientific theory, abiogenesis is much less understood. Studies have shown that given the conditions present in sea vents (where life appears to have begun on Earth) it is possible for organic molecules to form from inorganic ones (the famous 1952 Miller-Urey Experiments) but how exactly life came into existence is not well understood by the scientific community and other hypotheses have been put forward such as panspermia.  

Regarding the infinite vs finite nature of the universe, cosmologists are as close to certain as you can be in science that our universe is at the very least past-finite. There is a finite amount of universe although it is still ridiculously vast and contains immense amounts of matter. Despite this finite universe, the time spans involved and the overwhelming amount of matter available makes probability arguments against evolution almost laughably poor in the view of the vast majority of the scientific community. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  7
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  57
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   13
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/26/2019
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  05/08/2002

On 1/28/2019 at 9:20 PM, Vince said:

I always thought that if there was life on a different planet it would be like animal life here.  I think that we are the only people that god created in his image and that Jesus died for.  Just my own thoughts no real proof either way.  

I agree these are interesting thinking problems but we should not get sidetracked on them.  Our salvation is in Jesus as you say no mater what the universe is or does.

Certainly I agree that we ought not to get sidetracked, but they are rather interesting just the same, and it is of course always interesting and intriguing to study God's universe the better to appreciate His creativity and awesome power. :)

Yeah I read an interesting chapter in on of the Answers apologetic books where they outlined Biblical reasoning against extraterrestrial life although your opinion on that is rather interesting too.  Who knows? Probably we will not until heaven

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  29
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  730
  • Content Per Day:  0.16
  • Reputation:   49
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  07/19/2011
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  09/13/1993

1 hour ago, theInquirer said:

Certainly I agree that we ought not to get sidetracked, but they are rather interesting just the same, and it is of course always interesting and intriguing to study God's universe the better to appreciate His creativity and awesome power. :)

Yeah I read an interesting chapter in on of the Answers apologetic books where they outlined Biblical reasoning against extraterrestrial life although your opinion on that is rather interesting too.  Who knows? Probably we will not until heaven

Out of curiosity, what are the reasons that they think extraterrestrial life is impossible? Seems like it would be impossible to prove (proving a negative and all that). And why do they think it is unbiblical to think extraterrestrial life is impossible?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  7
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  57
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   13
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/26/2019
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  05/08/2002

Just now, ByFaithAlone said:

Out of curiosity, what are the reasons that they think extraterrestrial life is impossible? Seems like it would be impossible to prove (proving a negative and all that). And why do they think it is unbiblical to think extraterrestrial life is impossible?

Tbh I don't remember completely, it's been a couple years since I read it. . . I seem to somewhat vaguely to recall them citing how, as I mentioned, it could appear that Jesus would have to die for all those races for them to be saved, and for various reasons, this was unlikely or false, and we therefore are the only ones.  I guess that that doesn't necessarily mean life per se couldn't be out there like, as you observed, animal life, but it does seem quite likely to be indicating that beings such as ourselves, made in God's image, probably do not exist out there.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  29
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  730
  • Content Per Day:  0.16
  • Reputation:   49
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  07/19/2011
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  09/13/1993

2 minutes ago, theInquirer said:

Tbh I don't remember completely, it's been a couple years since I read it. . . I seem to somewhat vaguely to recall them citing how, as I mentioned, it could appear that Jesus would have to die for all those races for them to be saved, and for various reasons, this was unlikely or false, and we therefore are the only ones.  I guess that that doesn't necessarily mean life per se couldn't be out there like, as you observed, animal life, but it does seem quite likely to be indicating that beings such as ourselves, made in God's image, probably do not exist out there.  

Interesting but I've never heard this argument before and it seems to have some flaws. The Bible was given to us (humanity) but I don't think there is anything in the Bible that would preclude intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. Nor does it preclude the possibility that they have a relationship with the creator as well. It just simply isn't mentioned either way. Although it would be an interesting to think about how sin, etc. would effect other sentient species. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  7
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  57
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   13
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/26/2019
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  05/08/2002

On 1/30/2019 at 7:20 PM, ByFaithAlone said:

Ok so there is a slight problem with the phrasing of your question here. Evolutionary biology is the study of mutations and speciation that occur in life. Abiogenesis is the study of how life came to be from basic chemical components like amino acids. While evolutionary biology is a well accepted and proven scientific theory, abiogenesis is much less understood. Studies have shown that given the conditions present in sea vents (where life appears to have begun on Earth) it is possible for organic molecules to form from inorganic ones (the famous 1952 Miller-Urey Experiments) but how exactly life came into existence is not well understood by the scientific community and other hypotheses have been put forward such as panspermia.  

Regarding the infinite vs finite nature of the universe, cosmologists are as close to certain as you can be in science that our universe is at the very least past-finite. There is a finite amount of universe although it is still ridiculously vast and contains immense amounts of matter. Despite this finite universe, the time spans involved and the overwhelming amount of matter available makes probability arguments against evolution almost laughably poor in the view of the vast majority of the scientific community. 

Oh, I didn't know that. . . everywhere I looked online and elsewhere, the consensus seemed to be the same: we just don't know whether the universe is infinite or not.  But now you mentioned that it is held that the universe finite; where could I find this information for myself? I'm rather intrigued to be honest.

Yes, I realize that evolution concerns the forming of life by and through random, unguided processes in certain conditions. . . but if the universe is infinite, then there must exist infinite variations of matter and infinite opportune and possible circumstances for evolution to take place, and therefore we couldn't say that evolution is impossible because, say, the probability of a cell forming is one out of 10^14191 or some other such argument.

And also, please don't get me wrong here: I don't believe evolution is true or possible.  I could think of other arguments against it that do not rely on probability; I'm just interested in bolstering my apologetics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  7
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  57
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   13
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/26/2019
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  05/08/2002

Just now, ByFaithAlone said:

Interesting but I've never heard this argument before and it seems to have some flaws. The Bible was given to us (humanity) but I don't think there is anything in the Bible that would preclude intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. Nor does it preclude the possibility that they have a relationship with the creator as well. It just simply isn't mentioned either way. Although it would be an interesting to think about how sin, etc. would effect other sentient species. 

Well yes, but if such intelligent life existed elsewhere, it either would be able to have a relationship with God or it would not.  If it was capable of such a relationship, the relationship would either be perfect or not perfect.  So either this life would be without a soul and means of communicating/relating to/understanding God (such as animals), this life would be sinful like us, or it would essentially be like Adam and Eve before the Fall.  I suppose the possibility that you pointed out (the last one) is possible although I personally don't see it as being very likely.  The only other alternatives are the ones that have already been pointed out (animal life or sinful intelligence like us).  I must say, it is an interesting thing to think about, though. . . it stretches the boundaries of our customary horizons, so to speak.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...