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R. Hartono

Rapture means the wise virgins taken to the feast alive, tribulation means foolish virgins left and yell.

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1 hour ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

When a believer's body "dies", what happens to his/her soul? You are focused too much on the body. At the rapture, our old bodies will be dead - right? Even when a believer dies, do you not believe that he/she is immediately taken to heaven?

that's not even related to the  pretty simple question I asked.  If it is appointed unto man once to die, that is speaking of a physical death because Jesus has made a way to escape the second death.  Not all will experience that one.  The BIBLE is referring to the body when it speaks of the first death, so pardon me if I just tag along where the Bible takes me.

If it's appointed unto man once to die, then they're going to die.  So when do those mentioned die?  If they are taken to heaven alive then when do they die?  Simple question.

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1 hour ago, Jostler said:

that's not even related to the  pretty simple question I asked.  If it is appointed unto man once to die, that is speaking of a physical death because Jesus has made a way to escape the second death.  Not all will experience that one.  The BIBLE is referring to the body when it speaks of the first death, so pardon me if I just tag along where the Bible takes me.

If it's appointed unto man once to die, then they're going to die.  So when do those mentioned die?  If they are taken to heaven alive then when do they die?  Simple question.

1 Cor 15 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”…

1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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12 hours ago, Jostler said:

that's not even related to the  pretty simple question I asked.  If it is appointed unto man once to die, that is speaking of a physical death because Jesus has made a way to escape the second death.  Not all will experience that one.  The BIBLE is referring to the body when it speaks of the first death, so pardon me if I just tag along where the Bible takes me.

If it's appointed unto man once to die, then they're going to die.  So when do those mentioned die?  If they are taken to heaven alive then when do they die?  Simple question.

Maybe someone needs to ask you "what does it mean to you to be 'in Christ'?" And in relation to that, what does His death on the cross mean for us? 

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Just now, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Maybe someone needs to ask you "what does it mean to you to be 'in Christ'?" And in relation to that, what does His death on the cross mean for us? 

My understanding of being "in Christ" is that we are LITERALLY in Him by the Holy Spirit just as He is in us by  the Spirit.  Father too for that matter.  In Him we are guaranteed protection from the second death which I understand to be utter separation from God for eternity.

The Bible clearly speaks of two deaths, one physical that separates us from this corrupted flesh and another spiritual which is a death we're born into when we enter this life.

His death on the cross and resurrection from the grave both guarantee that the first death has no power over me IN HIM, and I've already been reborn into His family such that the power of the second death over me has already been defeated....IN HIM :)

Did that answer your question?

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1 hour ago, Jostler said:

My understanding of being "in Christ" is that we are LITERALLY in Him by the Holy Spirit just as He is in us by  the Spirit.  Father too for that matter.  In Him we are guaranteed protection from the second death which I understand to be utter separation from God for eternity.

The Bible clearly speaks of two deaths, one physical that separates us from this corrupted flesh and another spiritual which is a death we're born into when we enter this life.

His death on the cross and resurrection from the grave both guarantee that the first death has no power over me IN HIM, and I've already been reborn into His family such that the power of the second death over me has already been defeated....IN HIM :)

Did that answer your question?

Does the body die Before the spirit leaves the body, or does the spirit leave first?

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3 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Does the body die Before the spirit leaves the body, or does the spirit leave first?

Life doesn't come to clay until the Father breathes His spirit into it creating a human spirit.  So as far as I can tell when the spirit departs the life goes with it.  Why does it matter?  The spirit and soul depart, corrupted flesh goes back to the clay it was formed of to await the bestowal of a new body made of material fully compatible with the holiness of God and the purity of heaven.  Which comes with the resurrection.

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5 hours ago, Jostler said:

Life doesn't come to clay until the Father breathes His spirit into it creating a human spirit.  So as far as I can tell when the spirit departs the life goes with it.  Why does it matter?  The spirit and soul depart, corrupted flesh goes back to the clay it was formed of to await the bestowal of a new body made of material fully compatible with the holiness of God and the purity of heaven.  Which comes with the resurrection.

And when did Jesus' body "die"? The body was dead when the spirit was removed. If you are IN Him, then the same holds true for all believers... I believe our spirit is removed before we actually experience the death of our body. In the case of the rapture, it is the same - our spirit is removed and our body dies. The physical pain associated with whatever is causing our death cannot be avoided (unless we are raptured while still living and in a state of somewhat good health with little or no pain to speak of).

Maybe I am not getting what you are trying to say or imply?

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On 2/3/2019 at 12:54 AM, R. Hartono said:

Not at all, those who are alive and remain shall be taken alive

1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

THE RAPTURED SAINTS WILL BE TAKEN TO THE THRONE / THE GREAT MULTITUDE

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

So, we will maintain our flesh in heaven? I don't see that anywhere in the Bible, only that we will put off the corruptible flesh and put on incorruption (an immortal body). 

 

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12 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

So, we will maintain our flesh in heaven? I don't see that anywhere in the Bible, only that we will put off the corruptible flesh and put on incorruption (an immortal body). 

 

Brother it will be flesh, but not THIS flesh we now know.  The Bible witnesses that these fallen bodies we now inhabit were SO corrupted by the  fall, that they are in enmity to God and CANNOT be reconciled to Him.  Jesus was resurrected with a body but it was not the same type as the one He  laid down.  It will be the  same for us. 

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There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
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So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

If it is appointed unto man ONCE to die,

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And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Then that "change" mentioned to occur at the final resurrection is a transition (in the twinkling of an eye) through death and a near instantaneous bestowal of a new "celestial" body that is compatible with both  heaven and earth.  Uncorrupted and incorruptible just as He made our  spirits to become at the new birth.  Now the "earnest" of the Spirit given at the  new birth is fully and finally realized. 

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who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

That word "guarantee" ("earnest" in the KJV) is a word that means a "downpayment".  A partial payment that stands as promise and guarantee of full payment at a future date.

Have you ever wondered why it is that death is the last enemy to be put under His feet?  He stripped the KEYS (authority over) of death from satan's grasp  on the way  back up  out of hades.  He could and can throw death into the lake of fire and remove it's power over men at any  time.  Why does He delay?  :)  There is a very  GOOD reason....

We can discern clues as to what that body will be like from the Bible's descriptions  of Jesus after the resurection...we know we will be LIKE Him when He appears.

His new body had physical characteristics that allowed Him to fully interact with this earthly, three-dimensional world.

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Jesus said to them, “Come and eat breakfast.” Yet none of the disciples dared ask Him, “Who are You?”—knowing that it was the Lord.  Jesus then came and took the bread and gave it to them, and likewise the fish.
 
 
This is now the third time Jesus showed Himself to His disciples after He was raised from the dead.

His resurrected body was evidently capable of eating earthly food.

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And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!”
 
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

He also had abilities we currently do not.  Evidently this resurrected body could move through solid walls into locked rooms.  But it also had substance, physicality, or Thomas would not have been able to touch him.   He was (is) no "ghost".  He had (has!) substance.

There are many more "clues" if you look for them.  The story of the two disciples on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24 is full of them, but this passage truly NAILS it in Jesus' own words:

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“Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
 
When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.  But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?”  So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.  And He took it and ate in their presence.

Is there a clue in the precise wording Jesus chose?  I think so.  He used "flesh and BONE" to describe His new body, not "flesh and blood" as we might expect :).  The new body has immortality alright, but it also has substance....FLESH.

Edited by Jostler

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On 2/3/2019 at 6:20 PM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

And when did Jesus' body "die"? The body was dead when the spirit was removed. If you are IN Him, then the same holds true for all believers... I believe our spirit is removed before we actually experience the death of our body. In the case of the rapture, it is the same - our spirit is removed and our body dies. The physical pain associated with whatever is causing our death cannot be avoided (unless we are raptured while still living and in a state of somewhat good health with little or no pain to speak of).

Maybe I am not getting what you are trying to say or imply?

My implication is that NONE have been or ever will be taken to heaven without first laying this body  down in death.  That was the assumption behind my questioning the assertion that the virgins are taken alive to heaven.

 

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