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R. Hartono

Rapture means the wise virgins taken to the feast alive, tribulation means foolish virgins left and yell.

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10 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

The blessed hope is the resurrection 

That's my understanding as well.  Jesus' resurrection is OUR "hope" in knowing that death (though we all will still pass through  it) has no power to hold, or retain us.  IN HIM death's power is broken ...  IN HIM fear of death is extinguished.  But death is still operative.  The Bible says that Jesus must reign until ALL His enemies are put under His feet...

Quote
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

1Co 15:23

But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.


several things become evident here.  He must reign for a season and until a set, specific time.  Until ALL His enemies are finally, eternally subdued.  Death is clearly identified as the last enemy to be finally and eternally subdued.  The Bible tells us very precisely when that happens.  And it must happen before Jesus returns all the authority He has been given to Father.

After those who are His are raised at His coming, THEN the end can come.  It does not say how long the interval between that resurrection of His at His coming and the "end" is, but it must precde the end for certain.

The next verses tie the "end" to the final triumph over death and Jesus delivering the Kingdom to Father.  Also events clearly identified in Scripture.

"Time cues" are a precious thing and if we handle them with care to make sure our interpretations don't violate ANY of the Scripture, we find that the "time cues" don't ever give us "the day or the hour" but they sure do give us a VERY precise understanding of the "order of events"

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On 2/2/2019 at 10:35 PM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

When a believer's body "dies", what happens to his/her soul? You are focused too much on the body. At the rapture, our old bodies will be dead - right? Even when a believer dies, do you not believe that he/she is immediately taken to heaven?

Wrong! At the rapture those who are alive and in Christ will be CHANGED: our flesh and blood bodies will instantly be changed into flesh and bone resurrection bodies - the same bodies the dead in Christ get. Paul teaches us that to be absent from the body (dead) is to be present with the Lord. That would be the Spirit and soul together going up to heaven after the body quits working.

Edited by iamlamad

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On 2/6/2019 at 10:11 PM, R. Hartono said:

Resurrection is for the deceased but there must come the time when God's mercy is finished and the end times living people must be judged, taken or left behind for the antichrist.

I guess I would disagree: resurrection day for the church is the rapture event. Yes,the dead in Christ rise with resurrection bodies, but those who are alive and in Christ are changed instantly into resurrection bodies also -  without having to pass through death.

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On 3/3/2019 at 10:17 PM, iamlamad said:

I guess I would disagree: resurrection day for the church is the rapture event. Yes,the dead in Christ rise with resurrection bodies, but those who are alive and in Christ are changed instantly into resurrection bodies also -  without having to pass through death.

I believe there needs to be a distinction between the rapture and the ("first") resurrection mentioned at the end of the tribulation. The rapture involves a snatching away INTO heaven of the dead first, then those who are alive. When 'resurrection' is mentioned (like the one at the end of the tribulation) people are raised BUT REMAIN ON EARTH. The resurrection at the 2nd coming only involves those who HAVE already died (as mentioned in Revelation - those who HAVE GOTTEN victory of the Beast and the mark of the Beast).

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Just now, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

I believe there needs to be a distinction between the rapture and the ("first") resurrection mentioned at the end of the tribulation. The rapture involves a snatching away INTO heaven of the dead first, then those who are alive. When 'resurrection' is mentioned (like the one at the end of the tribulation) people are raised BUT REMAIN ON EARTH. The resurrection at the 2nd coming only involves those who HAVE already died (as mentioned in Revelation - those who HAVE GOTTEN victory of the Beast and the mark of the Beast).

Did you notice that in Rev. 15 those beheaded begin to show up IN HEAVEN?

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On 2/1/2019 at 6:56 AM, R. Hartono said:

The 5th seal is opened and the foolish virgins left will be martyred during the tribulation, the wise virgins have been taken already.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Sounds like you are now saying the "rapture" is at or near the end of the tribulation (at the 2nd coming)?

These 5th seal martyrs can just as easily point to the millions of Christians who have been martyred DURING the Church Age. It makes much more sense that they would be impatient after 2000 years instead of just 2 or 3 (or 5 or 6).

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Just now, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Sounds like you are now saying the "rapture" is at or near the end of the tribulation (at the 2nd coming)?

These 5th seal martyrs can just as easily point to the millions of Christians who have been martyred DURING the Church Age. It makes much more sense that they would be impatient after 2000 years instead of just 2 or 3 (or 5 or 6).

Right! They are church age martyrs. Good job.

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4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Did you notice that in Rev. 15 those beheaded begin to show up IN HEAVEN?

Sure, marking the 2nd coming they are "standing on the sea of glass (now mingled with fire-judgment)" and about to introduce the bowl judgments. Is it the right time to ask what the "sea of glass" represents?

These martyrs are singing the song of Moses and are described as those who have gotten victory of the beast and over his mark, and over his image, and over the number of his name. These cannot be the pre raptured believers.

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On 2/3/2019 at 12:54 AM, R. Hartono said:

Not at all, those who are alive and remain shall be taken alive

1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

THE RAPTURED SAINTS WILL BE TAKEN TO THE THRONE / THE GREAT MULTITUDE

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Yes, I agree the raptured saints are removed BEFORE the tribulation. This will include the dead who are taken first, then the living (a split second later - NOT 3-6 years). They are the ones who "came out of great tribulation". The great tribulation which began in the first century (the Church Age) which has martyred millions of "believers" after standing up for Jesus and the truth of God's word. A "great multitude" can be accounted for very easily IF you are referring to the entire Church Age, but IF you insist it is ONLY the 3-6 years of tribulation after the A/C shows up AND AFTER a rapture event - the numbers will NOT add up to a "great multitude". The tribulation period will probably actually see quite a limited number of people "saved". The left-behind most likely will never repent or admit false beliefs - more likely, they will say those raptured are the "tares" or false believers removed from the "wheat" (true believers).

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19 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Sure, marking the 2nd coming they are "standing on the sea of glass (now mingled with fire-judgment)" and about to introduce the bowl judgments. Is it the right time to ask what the "sea of glass" represents?

These martyrs are singing the song of Moses and are described as those who have gotten victory of the beast and over his mark, and over his image, and over the number of his name. These cannot be the pre raptured believers.

Since they were taken to heaven after death, I see no reason why they will not be raised at the "first" resurrection and be a part of those seated on thrones.  Your thoughts?

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