There are two different horse Riders of Revelation.

[Bible_Gazer]

4 different color horses 

4 different kinds of riders

Most likely the works of them are in different time frame.

Most likely the riders are represented by the colors.

But could it be by any chance that it could be of a certain group, that it has changed thru time.

example - the church

 

 

 

[R. Hartono]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I disagree. Seals 2 through 4 are to represent EVERY attempt of the devil to stop the advance of the gospel (seal 1). He would use war (the sword), famine (hunger), and pestilence (think the black plague).  God limited them in their theater of operation to 1/4 the earth - centered on Jerusalem where the gospel began. These three riders ride together.

War, famine and plague has happened since the ancient time, but when the Seals are opened it will be like no others :

Mat 24: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[R. Hartono]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Hartono,

I see the 4 horsemen as identified as spirit powers over 4 Federations,

Marilyn.

No federations can take peace from the earth unless power was given.

Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, R. Hartono said:

No federations can take peace from the earth unless power was given.

Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Hi R.Hartono,

I agree. God has shown (in Zech.) that He `allows` these spirits to move in the four Federations, with the expressed purpose of bringing them to judgment.

`These are four spirits of heaven who go out from their station before the Lord of all the earth.` (Zech. 6: 5)

Marilyn.

 

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

War, famine and plague has happened since the ancient time, but when the Seals are opened it will be like no others :

Mat 24: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

When one reads of the seals, then reads  Matthew 24:21, as if these two were related, one knows the writer has drifted far from the truth. 
Don't take my word for it: go back and read Rev. 4 & 5 that shows us the TIMING for the first seals. John got to see (in a vision) the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - circa 32 AD. The first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book into His hands - 32 AD or so. 

On the other hand, Matthew 24:21 speaks of events still future to us today. You are therefore around 2000 years off.

[iamlamad]

On 2/3/2019 at 1:12 PM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Again, when does the 69th week end? SHOW YOUR WORK. You avoid the main debate by using a FALSE teaching of an unfulfilled 70th week, then using that to misinterpret the rest of prophecy.

Your challenge is simple... prove the 69th week ends at the cross - then you can make all those assumptions about Rev. 

I have shown how the 69th week ends at the baptism and so far NO ONE Has shown how it contradicts the Bible or history. 

 

The A/C is restrained, but the seals have NOTHING to do with the A/C on my outline, so you have to prove your assumptions by FIRST showing the 69th week ends at the cross.

Chapters 4 & 5 are a NEW/ SEPARATE vision taking us back to the START of the Church (the midpoint of the 69th week - the cross and resurrection). We see four (count them = 4) "beasts" in heaven around the throne and 4 beasts "released" in the first four seals. We see 7 lamps (representing the 7 churches) appearing after the "lightnings, thunderings, and voices" (representing a time when God is supernaturally interacting with events on earth. These beasts are also seen in Ezek 1:5-11 (time of the OT BEFORE the cross), but they are connected together. In the NT they are released to go in four different directions. This too is shown in Zech 6: 1-5. Chapter 5 tells us God is holding a "sealed scroll" (unrevealed prophecy) that no one can open. No one was found "worthy" to open the seals? But wait, Jesus has conquered - BUT WHEN DID JESUS CONQUER? Of course in the first century! And that is when these seals are opened. The Jews are still blinded and will remain so UNTIL the final seal is removed - just like it is portrayed in Daniel. Also, what is heard in association with this event... "blessing, honour, glory and power" is given to the one "sitting" on the throne. Notice there are only 4 things given. This will increase at different key points on the prophecy outline when even more "honors" are bestowed upon Jesus. What is added LATER are "riches, wisdom, and strength" (raptured Church, 1st resurrection, 2nd coming).

The "bow" w/o arrows means making/offering peace. CORRECT!  Arrows have Biblical references to judgment, but Psalms 7:8-12 tells us who is the one being given "a bent bow with no arrows". 

Psalms 7: (refers to Jesus)

8 The Lord shall judge the people: judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.

⁹ Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

¹⁰ My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

¹¹ God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

¹² If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready.

Jesus came first to establish righteousness, and later, at His coming, He will bring a sword to judge.

Also, a "CROWN" is given this rider...

This too points to Jesus  being given "glory and honor" as per Psalms 8:5 

For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

⁶ Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

⁷ All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

⁸ The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

And the conquering and going forth to conquer is also obviously attached to the majority of the NT and the 7 letters to Christians as a very Jesus thing. The words "overcome and conquer" are the exact same word in the original language.

Finally, the "white" horse. I challenge you to find anything else in the Bible (of any significance) that is white and referring to something that is NOT holy or pure. 

Zech 9:10 "And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

Who is cut-off and who is speaking peace to the heathen, and whose dominion shall encompass the whole earth? Jesus! 

No assumptions on any of this. Solid Biblical evidence that the white horse rider is Jesus/Holy Spirit going out into the world at the start of the Church Age.

Good, but I would have worded it a little differently: the first horse and rider are to REPRESENT the church, taking the GOSPEL to the nations.  Good job on the timing! The first 5 seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - as per chapter 5.

I am not sure the horses and riders are REAL horses and riders  -  rather I think they are to represent things. It is a vision, not reality that John is seeing. 

Seals 2 through 4 represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. These three ride together, leaving the white horse out. God limited their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth - that fourth centered on Jerusalem.

The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. They must wait for the END of the church age before judgment comes.

Seal 6 begins the judgment. The church will be taken out just before the 6th seal.

Edited February 13, 2019 by iamlamad

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Good, but I would have worded it a little differently: the first horse and rider are to REPRESENT the church, taking the GOSPEL to the nations.  Good job on the timing! The first 5 seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - as per chapter 5.

I am not sure the horses and riders are REAL horses and riders  -  rather I think they are to represent things. It is a vision, not reality that John is seeing. 

Seals 2 through 4 represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. These three ride together, leaving the white horse out. God limited their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth - that fourth centered on Jerusalem.

The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. They must wait for the END of the church age before judgment comes.

Seal 6 begins the judgment. The church will be taken out just before the 6th seal.

Yes, we have been on the same page at least with the 1st seal. The "rider" should be understood as a "picture" of the one who is controlling the horse. The Beast in heaven consisted of 4 faces but was joined into ONE being in the OT. It was seen as only being allowed to move in one direction at a time. Now, in Revelation, they are separated and released around the whole world. The purpose of the Beast in heaven was to praise, honor and worship the true God in heaven. In Rev. we see four beasts released with the first four seals. Their purpose is the same, but the reality of it is that the colored horses represent what ultimately becomes of those individual beasts (or spirits within those "churches"). The white one is the Holy "Spirit" representing the true gospel message. The red one comes next and represents murder. The Black one represents false teachings and the final one represents confusion. The "spirits" of these "messages" (doctrines/gospel) are what we are warned about in the NT - that we should try(or judge) the spirits. 

Now, how do I prove such an idea in the Bible?

Zech 6:1 

And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.

² In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;

³ And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled (spotted/mixed color) and bay (powerful/strong) horses.

⁴ Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?

⁵ And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

You can see in vs 5 how this matches what was written in the 1st chapter of Revelation. The 4 beasts (spirits) go forth from the throne room of God. But, what about the order of release? I'll get to that later.

 

⁶ The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled (spotted/mixed color) go forth toward the south country.

⁷ And the bay (powerful/strong){part of the 4th 'confused' beast} went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth.

The next verse says the black horse STOPS and makes a home in the North (Rome) while the white horse continues moving westward. Remember when Paul wanted to move East but was prevented by the Holy Spirit? Yes, the Holy Spirit (true gospel) has been moving westward ever since. The black horse stopped in Rome, while the Christian movement continued West. Note how the gospel message has been recently getting extremely close to Israel and approaching from the East! 

So, what about the red horse? It's timing in Revelation is established SECOND after the release of the white horse. Islam is described perfectly as the red horse. It became powerful a few hundred years after the start of Christianity. It began (however briefly) accepting the message of Jesus, but quickly replaced it with what is described in Rev. 6 even to the point of killing one another. The Black horse is Catholicism which anchored itself in Rome and "threw truth to the ground but prospered greatly" as described in Daniel. the famine is not that of actual food, but spiritual food (truth). Notice how the true gospel is protected even while the famine continues. The fourth horse is what we see today, mass confusion (even in the churches). This will be the "beast" that Satan indwells in the final days (but only over 1/4 of the earth) - probably the EU as it looks today.

So, that leaves the 5th seal as marking a time similar to what we are in right now. Waiting for the rapture (our blessed hope) & 2nd coming (the only hope for everyone else). 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Yes, we have been on the same page at least with the 1st seal. The "rider" should be understood as a "picture" of the one who is controlling the horse. The Beast in heaven consisted of 4 faces but was joined into ONE being in the OT. It was seen as only being allowed to move in one direction at a time. Now, in Revelation, they are separated and released around the whole world. The purpose of the Beast in heaven was to praise, honor and worship the true God in heaven. In Rev. we see four beasts released with the first four seals. Their purpose is the same, but the reality of it is that the colored horses represent what ultimately becomes of those individual beasts (or spirits within those "churches"). The white one is the Holy "Spirit" representing the true gospel message. The red one comes next and represents murder. The Black one represents false teachings and the final one represents confusion. The "spirits" of these "messages" (doctrines/gospel) are what we are warned about in the NT - that we should try(or judge) the spirits. 

Now, how do I prove such an idea in the Bible?

Zech 6:1 

And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.

² In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;

³ And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled (spotted/mixed color) and bay (powerful/strong) horses.

⁴ Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?

⁵ And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

You can see in vs 5 how this matches what was written in the 1st chapter of Revelation. The 4 beasts (spirits) go forth from the throne room of God. But, what about the order of release? I'll get to that later.

 

⁶ The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled (spotted/mixed color) go forth toward the south country.

⁷ And the bay (powerful/strong){part of the 4th 'confused' beast} went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth.

The next verse says the black horse STOPS and makes a home in the North (Rome) while the white horse continues moving westward. Remember when Paul wanted to move East but was prevented by the Holy Spirit? Yes, the Holy Spirit (true gospel) has been moving westward ever since. The black horse stopped in Rome, while the Christian movement continued West. Note how the gospel message has been recently getting extremely close to Israel and approaching from the East! 

So, what about the red horse? It's timing in Revelation is established SECOND after the release of the white horse. Islam is described perfectly as the red horse. It became powerful a few hundred years after the start of Christianity. It began (however briefly) accepting the message of Jesus, but quickly replaced it with what is described in Rev. 6 even to the point of killing one another. The Black horse is Catholicism which anchored itself in Rome and "threw truth to the ground but prospered greatly" as described in Daniel. the famine is not that of actual food, but spiritual food (truth). Notice how the true gospel is protected even while the famine continues. The fourth horse is what we see today, mass confusion (even in the churches). This will be the "beast" that Satan indwells in the final days (but only over 1/4 of the earth) - probably the EU as it looks today.

So, that leaves the 5th seal as marking a time similar to what we are in right now. Waiting for the rapture (our blessed hope) & 2nd coming (the only hope for everyone else). 

I can't either agree or disagree about your take on the chariots pulled by horses.  The only thing we can determine about the purpose of these chariots pulled by horses is what is written: the black and white horses brought peace in the north. Anything else is conjecture.  One commentary said, "were observers on reconnaissance"

That may say it better than any other.  We don't know their real purpose unless it was to bring peace.  I don't have any other idea what this passage is about.

On the other hand, I do know what the horses in Revelation are about. And there I must disagree with you. Just because we find two places where there are colored horses in the bible, does not mean they have ANYTHING to do with each other! In Revelation we have their purpose. The red Horse and rider was to bring war. The black horse and rider was to bring famine or hunger. The Pale horse and rider was to bring death  - probably by pestilence. 

IN CONTEXT, we have the church commanded to take the gospel to the nations: that is the white horse. The world is controlled by Satan; we could almost say owned. He would certainly fight - do anything in his power - to stop the gospel from advancing. We can see his attempts in the life of Paul.

John told us of the white horse and rider, and that it would take conquering or overcoming to get the gospel out of Jerusalem and to the world. 

Next, John told us the devil's strategies (what was allowed by God - since it is written down) to stop the advance of the gospel.  The devil could use wars, famines, and pestilences.  Now, notice what Jesus said in Matthew 24:

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

As you can see, Jesus words and John's words are in agreement.  However, John wrote that God limited the devil's attempts to stop the gospel in these ways to only 1/4 of the world.  I am convinced, that 1/4 would be centered in Jerusalem. Therefore we are talking about Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. That takes up about 1/4.

Where did two world wars begin? In Europe. I might add. much of the fighting was in this 1/4th also. Where did the black plague hit - twice - both times killing around 1/3 of the people? In Europe. But it also hit in Africa also. 

Where have famines been over the last hundred years?  I can remember time after time people starving in Africa.

Notice how John wrote this verse about the 4th seal:

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

to kill with sword,   given to the Red horse and rider

and with hunger,   what the black horse and rider brought

and with death,     what the pale  horse and rider was titled

What is John telling us here? That these three horsemen ride together, with the same purpose: STOP the gospel!

Notice that the white horse is left out of this mix: He represents the gospel. 

See how simple this is? The gospel goes out, and the devil does everything in his power to stop it.  When wars are declared, missionaries go home. When a famine hits, missionaries go home. When a plague hits, missionaries go home - or die. 

There can be no doubt that Satan slowed down the gospel, but he could not stop it! Today the gospel is almost everywhere.

You missed it on the 5th seal too. It was opened with the first 4: around 32 AD. There were already martyrs at the time of Paul. Stephen was surely in that group. They had NO IDEA how long it would be before God would bring judgment....that is why they asked! 

The 6th seal is future to us today. That is why I say the church has been between the 5th and 6th seals since the day of Pentecost. The pretrib rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal events begin.

Edited February 14, 2019 by iamlamad

[R. Hartono]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

IN CONTEXT, we have the church commanded to take the gospel to the nations: that is the white horse.

SOME PEOPLE SAY THE FIRST SEAL IS JESUS WINNING PEOPLE, Well everybody knows already that Jesus win people from the start, no need to be hidden with the seals. These seals is hiding things in the end of days and Jesus has opened it for us to know what shall happen in the Great Tribulation, began with the 1st seal opening where antichrist is launched to conquer the world with fake peace.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

SOME PEOPLE SAY THE FIRST SEAL IS JESUS WINNING PEOPLE, Well everybody knows already that Jesus win people from the start, no need to be hidden with the seals. These seals is hiding things in the end of days and Jesus has opened it for us to know what shall happen in the Great Tribulation, began with the 1st seal opening where antichrist is launched to conquer the world with fake peace.

You are missing the big picture: HOW to dethrone Satan from being the spiritual ruler of this planet. The BOOK in Rev. 5 is God's plan on how to get His planet back from Satan who usurped Adam's place as the leader of this planet. 

This book is God's plan to dethrone Satan and get His planet back. But this book was sealed with 7 seals. Before the book can be opened (to reveal the  trumpet judgments that dethrone Satan) all seven seals must be opened.

Notice that Jesus got the book into His hands the moment He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. He began right then starting the process to dethrone Satan! The first seal is to represent the Gospel sent out. The next three seals represent the devil's attempts to STOP the advance of the gospel. (he failed!). Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. Seal 6 is future: the start of judgment. Seal  is the official start of the 70th week of Daniel. It begins with the trumpet judgments. Finally, at the 7th trumpet, Adam's lease will have ended: 6000 years for man to rule the planet. The next thousand will be ruled by God. Satan is cast down. Jesus gets His planet back. 

However, God has promised 42 months of authority to the Beast. The world seems to want a world without God - so He is going to give them just what they THINK they want.  42 months of hell on earth.