There are two different horse Riders of Revelation.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Mal'ak said:

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

You both are missing the important thing, that there will be a false prophet and a false Christ, for them to be said to be "Christ" they will need to appear to me "white".  Jesus said that at this time the anti-Christ and false prophet "shall shew great signs and wonders; if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect".

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

In Revelation 13 when it explains all the beasts and the dragon, along with what they will be doing on earth, the false prophet is said to look like a "lamb" but speaks as a "dragon".  Which obviously fits in with the false prophet coming as a "white horse", since he will look to be holy but really he will be preaching lies to deceive the world.

OF COURSE we are not "missing the important thing."  Yes, there will be a Beast pretending to be "the Christ."  But He is not introduced to John until chapter 13! We are discussing chapter 6.  Chapter 13 is the middle of the 70th week, while the first part of chapter 6 is the early church time. You see, we missed nothing. You, however, must have missed the context of the first seal: chapters 4 & 5.

Do you imagine God will allow the Beast to choose his own color in this awesome book of the revealing of Jesus Christ? Sorry, GOD chose his color and it is fiery red!  It seems you are around 2000 years off here.  That is what happens when you pull a verse out of its context.

Which obviously fits in with the false prophet coming as a "white horse" Sorry, but he does not get to choose his own color! And you are 2000 years off on that white horse.  I hope you don't think the Antichrist Beast will ride out in the time of the early church!

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

That is all you have for proof. The root of the word may be the same, but we are talking about two different words.

I have proven the tribulation is only 3.5 years (NOT 7). I have proven the "so-called proof" of the 7 year tribulation is based on faulty calculations.

No one has shown other Scripture proving a 7 year tribulation other than Dan. 9:27. It is NOT there, because there is NO 7 year tribulation. Your interpretations based on this false teaching will ALWAYS lead to error.

I have proven how Rev. proves the 1st seal was opened in the 1st century based on the accolades given to Jesus at the various points along the prophecy time line. It proves the assumption you are making about the seals being attached to the tribulation and the A/C are NOT based on Scripture, but rather on personal opinion and false teachings. You have accepted these and refuse to go back and verify that the basic assumptions are even correct. Your "facts" are man-made assumptions!

Sorry, but it seems you have proven a lot in your own eyes. However, you are correct on the 1st century for the first seal. But it is based on the CONTEXT: chapters 4 & 5.

[iamlamad]

On 2/1/2019 at 5:30 AM, R. Hartono said:

There are two white horse riders in the book of Revelation, one on earth, another one is in heaven.

Lets look at the first white horse rider, what exactly he does on earth ? conquering the world :

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a BOW; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Bow without arrows is the symbol of peace making.

Daniel 8:25 ...and by peace shall destroy many

Especially the 7 years peace agreement between Israel-Arabs which has never happened since it has been prophesied

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

THE WORLD WILL BE BROUGHT TO A NEW ERA OF PEACE BECAUSE THE DEVIL WILL STOP ALL THE WARS.

1 Thessalonians 5:3- For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.

The 1st seal opening will bring a short time of peace for the world and then the 2nd seal shall be opened and horrors will be unceasingly unleashed.

SOME PEOPLE SAY THE FIRST SEAL IS JESUS WINNING PEOPLE, Well everybody knows already that Jesus win people from the start, no need to be hidden with the seals. These seals is hiding things in the end of days and Jesus has opened it for us to know what shall happen in the Great Tribulation, began with the 1st seal opening.

NOW LETS LOOK AT THE 2ND WHITE HORSE RIDER IN HEAVEN, THIS IS ABOUT JESUS CHRIST WITH ALL THE CHARACTERS NOT FOUND AT THE FIRST HORSE.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

THIS HORSE IS OBVIOUSLY JESUS READY TO GO TO ARMAGEDDON BATTLE WITH THIS SAINTS AFTER THE MARRIAGE FEAST OF THE LAMB.

Rev 19: 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

I disagree with this entire post. It is based on a faulty understanding of scripture. Hartono,  did you ever research John's every other use of white? He used it 17 times in Revelation - every other time to represent righteousness. Do you just imagine God would choose to use white just once out of 17 times to represent evil? There is not one chance in a trillion chances! One thing God is - is consistent! Then you have pulled this first seal out of its first century context.  Always remember, cults pull verses out of context to make their theories seem scriptural. We have no need to pull a verse out of context, for we are looking for TRUTH.  Go back and study chapters 4 & 5. Believe what they tell you.

I will ever give you some hints - some very strange things in a vision seen by John around 95 AD.

1. Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father, when we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been.

2. "NO MAN was found" in that first search John watched that ended in failure.  Yet, Jesus was found worthy later. So why not in the first search?

3. The Holy Spirit was seen in the throne room in chapter 4 (as the 7 spirits of God) but Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. Why is he there?

Try to find TIMING in these two chapters. Also look for the movement of time.

Edited February 15, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Sorry, but I see that you want to make believe that the first four seals are opened in the first century. This makes little sense as I have outlined how different accolades are attributed to Jesus at the key prophetic points. These are NOT all thrust upon Him at the same time, but are gradually added as more prophecy is fulfilled. 

  I do agree that John is shown what 1) HAS happened - the cross and beginnings of the Church/end of Israel along with their 'blinding' which is rejection of Jesus, 2) what is NOW or rather what is happening at that time - the 7 letters AND the START of the Church Age, AND what is happening in heaven, and 3) what WILL happen from that point on - embedded within the 7 letters and the seals slowly being opened which is the ONLY prophecy concerning the Church Age in Scripture. To read it any other way would suggest that God DOES NOT TELL HIS PEOPLE WHAT HE IS ABOUT TO DO - BEFORE HE DOES IT. That goes against Scripture and would also mean that the Church Age is meaningless to God and we are wasting our time.

When the seals are removed, the Jewish people will be able to 'see' the truth and accept Jesus (7th seal), thus ENDING the Church Age... TRUE

At the 7th seal, the Church Age ends (the rapture all ready happened [6th seal], the wedding party in heaven lasts "about half an hour" or 7 days), and the blindness is removed with the sealing of the 144K (JEWS)). This 7th seal can be either at the start or end of the tribulation without causing any contradiction on the prophecy time line.

The first two trumpets represent the Rapture of the dead believers (first) followed by those who are ALIVE or "on the earth". When you apply the "metaphors" too much to physical things (like saying it is referring to the green things being actually burned instead of spiritual ones = the Bible describes the righteous as being "green grass and trees"), you end up with false teaching. Remember, to be "sanctified" to God the 'offering' MUST be burnt. 

The third trumpet is a great (powerful) star falling from heaven which causes the fresh "water" (lukewarm, left-behind believers) to become 'bitter' (full of false teachings) which causes many to 'die' - again spiritual death. (The Harlot is revealed after the true believers are removed)

The fourth trumpet sees 1/3 of the sun, moon, and stars being darkened. The war in heaven causes 1/3 of the angels to be cast out. (The False Prophet)

The fifth trumpet is interrupted by an angelic announcement - "woe, woe, woe" (the three woes) are the the last three trumpets.

The fifth trumpet sees a star fall from heaven who opens the pit (begins the tribulation). Obviously, this is Satan (the beast). The start of the final 3.5 year tribulation. These first 5 trumpets will occur in relatively rapid succession. Maybe only a matter of days or a week or two. We know the first two occur in the "twinkling of an eye". And if one day is like a thousand years in heaven, then the war in heaven may only be minutes or hours to those here on earth. 

The 6th trumpet (2nd woe) releases the "four angels of destruction" - Armageddon judges the world and 1/3 of mankind is killed. The rest still refuse to accept Jesus and repent - the "gnashing of teeth". 

BEFORE the 7th trumpet (3rd woe) there is a 'little book" that is fully opened, but John is told to "seal it up". So, there is still another prophetic book that will be added later (my guess is this will be God's prophecy for the Millennium - Rev. 10:11). Of course, the 7th trumpet is the 2nd coming and start of the Millennium. The "bowls" are poured out AFTER Jesus returns. This is the extra 45 days from the end of Daniel 12.

No, I am NOT "making believe: I KNOW the first 5 seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book into His hands. Why would anyone doubt this?  I go by the CONTEXT: 

What does this scripture really say, if we ignore tradition and just read? It was still while John was
alive (obviously) and it was JOHN caught up to heaven to show him things to come, so we would have
Revelation to read. No one can find 2000 years of church history there! It is only imagined. 

If you read through chapters 4 & 5, they tell us a story, give us timing, and the movement of time.
Notice that this was a vision given around 95 AD, LONG after Jesus ascended, yet Jesus was NOT at the
right hand of the Father, nor anywhere in the throne room. That gives us timing. Then the Holy Spirit (As
the 7 spirits of God) WAS there, which also gives us timing. (Jesus had not yet ascended to send the Holy
Spirit down). Finally, a search was made for one worthy, yet NO MAN was found. All this shows us this was
a vision of the past: a time before Christ rose from the dead. In all of eternity past, present and
future, there was only 32 years when Jesus or "the WORD" was NOT at the right hand of the Father - and
that was during the 32 years He was on earth.

Finally in chapter 5, we see a CHANGE in time. Another search was made for one worth, and this time JESUS
was found! This tells us He had now risen from the dead to become the redeemer of mankind. Then John saw
the moment Jesus arrived into the throne room, right after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not
yet ascended. And the moment He arrived the Holy Spirit was sent down.

All this is giving us the CONTEXT of the seals: Jesus went straight to the Father, got the book, and
began breaking seals. Again, no one can find 2000 years in those verses or between them ever - for that
was not the intent of the Author. All this was to show that the first seal - the CHURCH sent out with the
GOSPEL - was opened around 32 AD. Then the next three seals, revealing the red horse, the black horse and
the pale horse, ride together - to represent Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the church. But God
limited them in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth.

The first HINT we see of a long period of waiting is at the 5th seal. These were the early martyrs. They are wondering when God will bring judgment. They did not know that judgment must wait for the age of grace to end.  They were told there is a number in the mind of God- the total number of church age martyrs. When that final number is reached, THEN judgment will come.  What will cause a certain martyr to be the LAST or final of this number? Of course, the end of the church age or age of grace. When the rapture hits, the very next martyr will be in a different group: a 70th week martyr. Judgment will begin a moment after the rapture with the wrath of God. 

If we study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, we see that Paul tied the Day of the Lord to the rapture. They are back to
back events that cannot be separated. The rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. And
further, Paul shows us that the start of the Day - the worldwide earthquake "sudden destruction" will be
the start of God's wrath. There is only ONE PLACE in Revelation where this scenario fits - and that is
just before the 6th seal that starts the Day of the Lord.

The church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seals almost 2000 years now. But VERY SOON the rapture will come, the age of Grace will be over, and God's wrath will begin with the start of the Day of the Lord.

I will give credit where credit is due: you did a FINE job on the accolades. But it seems you have MISSED the real context of the seals.  It also seems you have missed the intent of the Author in seals 2 through 4. 

When the seals are removed, the Jewish people will be able to 'see' the truth and accept Jesus (7th seal), thus ENDING the Church Age... TRUE  

No, FALSE!  The Jews will not accept Jesus until the SEE the nail prints in His hands. That will not come until chapter 19! They will remain deceived through much of the 70th week. That is just a fact: it is the very reason God must totally destroy their power (think IDF). And the church age ends between the 5th and 6th seal, NOT at the 7th. The 7th seal offically opens the 70th week.  You are close, but close does not count. 

At the 7th seal, the Church Age ends (the rapture all ready happened [6th seal],

Sorry, but this seems silly: the church age will end with the rapture, not some time after the rapture! 

the wedding party in heaven lasts "about half an hour" or 7 days)  Sorry, but this is error. The marriage and supper will come, but NOT HERE: they will come after the entire week has ended: that is why John told about them in chapter 19. The marriage must wait for the Old Testament saints to rise, and they will not rise until the "last day" or the last 24 hours of the 70th week. Just so you know, they will rise at the 7th vial. I suspect the supper may last 30 days. 

the blindness is removed with the sealing of the 144K (JEWS)) Sorry, WRONG! The blindness will have come off of these 144,000, but it will not come off must of the Hebrews until they SEE the nail prints in His hands.  I suspect these 144,000 are born again after they see the effects of the rapture - or after they actually SEE the rapture.  If they were born again before, they would have gone up with the church.

This 7th seal can be either at the start or end of the tribulation without causing any contradiction on the prophecy time line.  No it can't! This is ERROR gone to seed. The 7th seal has to be after the 6th for John numbered them - and it is the final seal sealing the book, so the book is opened as soon as the 7th seal is opened. Rev. 8 begins what is written INSIDE the book: the trumpet judgments. In other words, NO WAY any trumpet can or will be sounded until all 7 seals are opened.  

The first two trumpets represent the Rapture of the dead believers (first) followed by those who are ALIVE or "on the earth".   MORE error gone to seed. The rapture is a blessed event. The trumpets are JUDGMENTS! Do you imagine God is judging the church?  It is FAR MORE likely that the first three trumpet judgments are referring to nuclear warfare. One thing is certain, it is God beginning systematically to destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth, as the Old Testament tells us the Day of the Lord is to accomplish.  A nuke certainly will burn up all the grass over a HUGE area and destroy trees.  Just saying....

Chernobyl translated is "wormwood." I think God has given us a HUGE hint on the 3rd trumpet.  For the rapture, we have 1 Thes 4 & 5, and 1 Cor. 15. 

The fourth trumpet sees 1/3 of the sun, moon, and stars being darkened. The war in heaven causes 1/3 of the angels to be cast out. (The False Prophet)  Just more nonsense!  1/3 cast out of what or where? Where are you getting this? Yes, the lights in the sky dim. Period. Stop adding to scripture!

The start of the final 3.5 year tribulation.   WRONG AGAIN!  Daniel tells us the week will be divided in HALF. You inside there will be only 3.5 years. So what are earth timing is the first trumpets?  Did you not read Jesus that at the abomination (you know, the one that divides the week) THEN is when those in Judea flee? We see that fleeing begin in 12:6, PROVING beyond all doubt that that is the MIDPOINT of the 70th week. Of, for those that imagine only a half of a week left, that, 12:6 is were it begins. Actually, we must accunt for reaction time: they will begin to flee maybe a few seconds AFTER the abomination event. If we back up from 12:6 looking for a real time event, we get to the 7th trumpet. THAT is the exact midpoint of the 70th week. The 7th trumpet will sound when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews. The daily sacrifices will stop. Those in Judea that know, will begin fleeing.

"woe, woe, woe" (the three woes) are the the last three trumpets.  Finally! Hallelujah! Some truth! Good job here!

We know the first two occur in the "twinkling of an eye"  You IMAGINE that because you imagine they are the rapture. You were wrong then, and you are wrong here. Sorry to be so blunt, but it is true.

Of course, the 7th trumpet is the 2nd coming and start of the Millennium.  WRONG AGAIN! You amaze me. Did you just forget that His coming for Armageddon is in chapter 19? You are over 3.5 years off here. Well, I am not surprised, because you are 3.5 years off on the length of this enter time: it is 7 years, not 3.5! Did you ever think about how long Jacob had to work (EXTRA WORK) for the woman he loved? It was 7 years, NOT 3.5! Did you ever heard of "Jacob's trouble?"  

Again, credit where credit is due: you are RIGHT ON that the change of Millenniums is right here at the 7th trumpet. Good job! Few get this part right.

The "bowls" are poured out AFTER Jesus returns.  WRONG AGAIN! You are rearranging the book! STOP IT! You have no right to rearrange Revelation to fit your theory. ANY theory that must rearrange John's God Given chronology will be proven wrong.  Why be wrong when you can be right? Just leave Revelation as written and BELIEVE it! 

For the readers: this is so simple: the bowls are in chapter 16. The 70th week ENDS with the 7th bowl or vial. Jesus does not return until chapter 19, probably 30 days later. The bowls or vials are VERY MUCH a part of the 70th week. 

As usually, it seems we don't agree on much. 

Edited February 15, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iml,

Again, you're pulling a verse out of context.

Jesus is seen right from Rev 1...all the way thru.

Are you saying that Jesus was there up to the end of Rev 4:11....(the 24 elders fall down before HIM who sits on the throne, saying) "Worthy are YOU, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and because of your will they existed, and were created".............then went back down to the earth, then came back in Rev 5?

Well, I just say this is utter nonsense. C'mon now brother. 

The ONLY problem is, you don't understand the context! I am right IN the context. In Rev. 1 John SAW Jesus - as real as the sun rising on a clear morning.  But in chapter 4, John saw a VISION. Visions can be of any time or past, present and future together - or any combination. This particular vision of the throne room was a vision of the past. BELIEVE It, for it is truth.  Are you really willing to call truth "utter nonsense?"  

IN THE VISION of the past  - back when it really happened - right after Christ rose and ascended and took the scroll - THEN the elders worshiped Him. John is just seeing what happened about 60 years later - in a vision. 

You did read how Jesus suddenly appeared in the throne room where He was NOT a moment before? (Rev. 5) You did read How He sent the Holy Spirit down? These things happened around 32 AD, NOT 95 AD when John saw the vision.  

The search for one worthy to open the seals was probably ONGOING since Adam. It appears that John saw the last search that took place BEFORE He became worthy, then another search took place and in that one Jesus WAS found worthy. Again, these things took place before Jesus rose from the dead - and right after: NOT in 95 AD.

Of course most people just read over these things and then pull the first seal out of its 1st century context. Perhaps you are guilty of this also.

 

 

[iamlamad]

On 2/14/2019 at 7:58 PM, Last Daze said:

Now, that's a real head-scratcher!  You say that Satan is cast down to the earth to dwell among the kingdoms that Jesus now owns.  From what I've been told, Satan and Jesus don't really like each other.  Why would Jesus abide Satan's presence in His kingdom at all?

The seventh trumpet is the return of Jesus.

• But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:7

The seventh trumpet:

• Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”  And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.  And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”  Revelation 11:15-18

Note the highlighted parts.  It's over at the seventh plague just like Revelation 10:7 states.

Why scratch your head? Just BELIEVE when you read it:

Revelation 12:12

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

I hope you understand, this is only TEMPORARY: soon after this he will be locked up for a thousand years. They are NOT going to be rubbing shoulders!   Anyway, it seems he devil possesses the man of sin and he becomes the Beast. So Satan is limited to being inside a human body.

 

What you were reading there at the 7th trumpet is PROPHECY. We know that because these things take place later on in the narrative.  What really happens at the 7th trumpet is that Jesus gets His planet back, and Michael goes after Satan to cast him down.

[JoeCanada]

24 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The ONLY problem is, you don't understand the context! I am right IN the context. In Rev. 1 John SAW Jesus - as real as the sun rising on a clear morning.  But in chapter 4, John saw a VISION. Visions can be of any time or past, present and future together - or any combination. This particular vision of the throne room was a vision of the past. BELIEVE It, for it is truth.  Are you really willing to call truth "utter nonsense?"  

IN THE VISION of the past  - back when it really happened - right after Christ rose and ascended and took the scroll - THEN the elders worshiped Him. John is just seeing what happened about 60 years later - in a vision. 

You did read how Jesus suddenly appeared in the throne room where He was NOT a moment before? (Rev. 5) You did read How He sent the Holy Spirit down? These things happened around 32 AD, NOT 95 AD when John saw the vision.  

The search for one worthy to open the seals was probably ONGOING since Adam. It appears that John saw the last search that took place BEFORE He became worthy, then another search took place and in that one Jesus WAS found worthy. Again, these things took place before Jesus rose from the dead - and right after: NOT in 95 AD.

Of course most people just read over these things and then pull the first seal out of its 1st century context. Perhaps you are guilty of this also.

 

 

Hi iml,

Gotta hand it to you, you're a good story teller.

You say that John in Rev 4...."saw a vision". Actually, Rev 4 says that "Immediately I was in the Spirit"

Now, in Daniel, several times says that..."in the vision I saw"........BUT, John never says he saw "in a VISION."

Rev 1:10...."I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day"......

Hey, if you want to call it a Vision, well, go right ahead.

"This particular vision of the throne room was a vision of the past. BELIEVE It, for it is truth."

Don't see anything in Rev 4 that qualifies that statement. And if it really is the past, then how can the Church already be there , because many pre-tribbers say that the 24 elders represent the church?

"Are you really willing to call truth "utter nonsense?"

Well, certainly not God's Truth!

"You did read how Jesus suddenly appeared in the throne room where He was NOT a moment before? (Rev. 5)"The search for one worthy to open the seals was probably ONGOING since Adam. It appears that John saw the last search that took place BEFORE He became worthy, then another search took place and in that one Jesus WAS found worthy."

Seems that you are implying that Jesus wasn't there, that He was 'lost'. 

Jesus was DEEMED worthy. The shedding of His blood qualified Him to open the scroll,  but you already know that.

Here are a few scriptures that use "found"...... nowhere implying something was lost, that it had to be searched for.

The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found G2147 favor with God....Lk 1:30

Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled at him, and turned and said to the crowd that was following Him, “I say to you, not even in Israel have I found ^G2147 such great faith.”....Matt 8:10

Now the birth of Jesus [fn]Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been [fn]betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found ^G2147 to be with child by the Holy Spirit.....Lk 7:9

[iamlamad]

Just now, JoeCanada said:

Hi iml,

Gotta hand it to you, you're a good story teller.

You say that John in Rev 4...."saw a vision". Actually, Rev 4 says that "Immediately I was in the Spirit"

Now, in Daniel, several times says that..."in the vision I saw"........BUT, John never says he saw "in a VISION."

Rev 1:10...."I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day"......

Hey, if you want to call it a Vision, well, go right ahead.

"This particular vision of the throne room was a vision of the past. BELIEVE It, for it is truth."

Don't see anything in Rev 4 that qualifies that statement. And if it really is the past, then how can the Church already be there , because many pre-tribbers say that the 24 elders represent the church?

"Are you really willing to call truth "utter nonsense?"

Well, certainly not God's Truth!

"You did read how Jesus suddenly appeared in the throne room where He was NOT a moment before? (Rev. 5)"The search for one worthy to open the seals was probably ONGOING since Adam. It appears that John saw the last search that took place BEFORE He became worthy, then another search took place and in that one Jesus WAS found worthy."

Seems that you are implying that Jesus wasn't there, that He was 'lost'. 

Jesus was DEEMED worthy. The shedding of His blood qualified Him to open the scroll,  but you already know that.

Here are a few scriptures that use "found"...... nowhere implying something was lost, that it had to be searched for.

The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found G2147 favor with God....Lk 1:30

Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled at him, and turned and said to the crowd that was following Him, “I say to you, not even in Israel have I found ^G2147 such great faith.”....Matt 8:10

Now the birth of Jesus [fn]Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been [fn]betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found ^G2147 to be with child by the Holy Spirit.....Lk 7:9

So it seems you don't think God can show someone a vision when they are "in the Spirit?"  That is probably the way God shows most visions.  In Rev. 9:17 John tells us he saw the horses "in the vision." 

How can we tell when John was seeing a vision and when He was seeing reality? One way is by TIMING! If John was seeing something in the future, or in the past (from 95 AD) we can know he was seeing a vision.   I will "go ahead" and call it a vision because it was of events 60 years into John's past.

How can ANYONE know for sure who or what the 24 elders are? The truth is, no one knows. I have my guesses, but that is all they are: guesses. It is possible they are those that Jesus rose from the dead when He rose. It is only a guess.

By the way, the "church" arrived in chapter 7. It was certainly NOT THERE in Chapter 4. Jesus was not even there in chapter 4: that is how I know it is a vision. Go back and read it again - verify for yourself who was in the throne room at that time. I ask you again: WHEN did Jesus ascend and send the Holy Spirit down?  Was it in 95 AD? WHEN was Jesus found worthy to open the seals? 95 AD?  WHEN was there a time when Jesus would NOT be found worthy? 95 AD? 

I rest my case: all these things PROVE John was seeing things that took place about 60 years before.

Seems that you are implying that Jesus wasn't there  No, I am TELLING it, not implying it!  Jesus was not seen there by John - when we have a dozen verses telling us Jesus SHOULD be there. Stephen SAW Him there.

The shedding of His blood qualified Him to open the scroll,  No, that is NOT TRUE. It was His resurrection that qualified Him.  Our salvation was not guaranteed until Jesus rose from the dead.  He was not found worthy until He rose.  Of course He had to die before He could rise.  Remember, Paul wrote that if there was no resurrection from the dead, then Jesus did not rise, and our faith would be in vain.

Jesus was NOT lost! Heaven KNEW He went to paradise. Jesus knew He was going to paradise. 

⁵ And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

How did he "prevail?" He rose from the dead. 

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What you were reading there at the 7th trumpet is PROPHECY. We know that because these things take place later on in the narrative. 

The things described at the seventh trumpet take place when the seventh trumpet sounds.  There is nothing to indicate that they take place later on.  The chronology of the seven seals and seven trumpets ends with the seventh trumpet.  Chapters 12-19 do not follow chronologically but rather provide additional background and detail for the events of chapters 6-11.  

I've read enough of your posts to know that you disagree and that's fine.  I'm not really interested in belaboring the issue.  Our focus needs to be on what Jesus emphasized, being ready and alert.  All of the whithertos and whyfors will come to pass according to the will of God.  That's His part to do.  Our part is to glorify His name by remaining faithful and holding to the testimony of Jesus to the end, whatever that end is.   So, I encourage you and the others here to remain vigilant as our Lord exhorted us to be, especially as we see the day drawing near.

[Mal'ak]

21 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

That is all you have for proof. The root of the word may be the same, but we are talking about two different words.

I have proven the tribulation is only 3.5 years (NOT 7). I have proven the "so-called proof" of the 7 year tribulation is based on faulty calculations.

No one has shown other Scripture proving a 7 year tribulation other than Dan. 9:27. It is NOT there, because there is NO 7 year tribulation. Your interpretations based on this false teaching will ALWAYS lead to error.

I have proven how Rev. proves the 1st seal was opened in the 1st century based on the accolades given to Jesus at the various points along the prophecy time line. It proves the assumption you are making about the seals being attached to the tribulation and the A/C are NOT based on Scripture, but rather on personal opinion and false teachings. You have accepted these and refuse to go back and verify that the basic assumptions are even correct. Your "facts" are man-made assumptions!

 

You have not proven anything, you said "white is not referred to in regards to describe evil, so all other scripture must be dismissed" that is complete nonsense.  There are many times in the Bible that the Father explains things to us, but he uses completely different wording and examples to try and get the point across, so your entire "proof" is false.

 

You have not proven anything about the time of the end, using symbolic numbers and times in Revelation is the same as saying real man size scorpions are coming to eat our brains, it is false and on top of that childish logic.  On top of that Jesus said the time stated in Bible, even if they were real numbers, where shortened for our sake so we could handle the tribulation "Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." No where does it say what the Tribulation was shortened too, so again another false statement and nothing proven.

 

Again with the 1st century, is another false doctrine, as you are rejecting the Word of Christ once again to fit your tradition of man. "Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."  Jesus tells us nothing of the prophecy will take place until the Word of God is preached to the entire world, so that everyone on the Earth has a chance to know Christ and it is fair. In the first century there were a few scattered churches only in the Roman Empire, because Paul only traveled through the Empire.

 

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

The context of the entire chapter six starts at chapter one, when John was brought "in the Spirit on the Lord's day".  Which we known from many sources like Paul in Corinthians, the Lord's Day is "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", which they are still waiting for in the 1st century when Paul wrote the letter to the Corinthians. I was not going to reply, because I do not argue as the Holy Spirit does not dwell in arguments, but for the other's on this forum who might be deceived by your false "proof", I just wanted to make clear all your "proof" is just you saying Jesus Christ our Lord is wrong.

 

For all others, we are not in the age of the seven seals, because Jesus himself said that the end time prophecies will be the greatest tribulation man has ever seen in the history of the world.  Which is why the Father in his mercy shortened the days of the tribulation, but for some to suggest we have are in those times now is calling Jesus and the Father a liar, since how is it shortened when for thousands of years since the 1st century we humans have lived full lives?  Did the Father cause every person to die at the age of 25? No, so how was it shortened so his promise could be fulfilled if we had to endure the seals for our entire life time for the last 2,000 years?  The answer is, because the great tribulation has not started yet, and none of the seals are opened yet. The Father is not a liar, but men are.