There are two different horse Riders of Revelation.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The things described at the seventh trumpet take place when the seventh trumpet sounds.  There is nothing to indicate that they take place later on.  The chronology of the seven seals and seven trumpets ends with the seventh trumpet.  Chapters 12-19 do not follow chronologically but rather provide additional background and detail for the events of chapters 6-11.  

I've read enough of your posts to know that you disagree and that's fine.  I'm not really interested in belaboring the issue.  Our focus needs to be on what Jesus emphasized, being ready and alert.  All of the whithertos and whyfors will come to pass according to the will of God.  That's His part to do.  Our part is to glorify His name by remaining faithful and holding to the testimony of Jesus to the end, whatever that end is.   So, I encourage you and the others here to remain vigilant as our Lord exhorted us to be, especially as we see the day drawing near.

Why do insist on writing what is not true! I think you know....for Example: 

thy wrath is come....this is a Greek Aorist verb that shows no tense at all. John stated that God's wrath began at the 6th seal and with the great earthquake. Later we read that the vials are filled with His wrath. 

the time of the dead, that they should be judged  We read in Rev. 20 that hell will not give up her dead until after the 1000 years.  Those who are beheaded will be resurrected later too. The dead in Christ will be rapture pretrib so they will judged at the judgment seat of Christ. The final judgment at the great white throne will be after the millennial reign. Therefore, this statement written in chapter 11 is prophetic and was not meant to be taken as NOW in John's narrative. 

shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.  This is a listed purpose of the Day of the Lord: to destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth.  Part of this destroying the sinners will come at Armageddon where most of the young fighting men of the world will be killed. Far more people will be destroyed at the sheep and goat judgment. Others will be destroyed when the parable of the tares is fulfilled. Again, this verse is prophetic and is not meant to be taken as NOW in John's narrative.  The rest of your post is RIGHT ON!  We need to be ready and EXPECTING His coming. 

 

[iamlamad]

48 minutes ago, Mal'ak said:

 

You have not proven anything, you said "white is not referred to in regards to describe evil, so all other scripture must be dismissed" that is complete nonsense.  There are many times in the Bible that the Father explains things to us, but he uses completely different wording and examples to try and get the point across, so your entire "proof" is false.

 

You have not proven anything about the time of the end, using symbolic numbers and times in Revelation is the same as saying real man size scorpions are coming to eat our brains, it is false and on top of that childish logic.  On top of that Jesus said the time stated in Bible, even if they were real numbers, where shortened for our sake so we could handle the tribulation "Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." No where does it say what the Tribulation was shortened too, so again another false statement and nothing proven.

 

Again with the 1st century, is another false doctrine, as you are rejecting the Word of Christ once again to fit your tradition of man. "Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."  Jesus tells us nothing of the prophecy will take place until the Word of God is preached to the entire world, so that everyone on the Earth has a chance to know Christ and it is fair. In the first century there were a few scattered churches only in the Roman Empire, because Paul only traveled through the Empire.

 

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

The context of the entire chapter six starts at chapter one, when John was brought "in the Spirit on the Lord's day".  Which we known from many sources like Paul in Corinthians, the Lord's Day is "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", which they are still waiting for in the 1st century when Paul wrote the letter to the Corinthians. I was not going to reply, because I do not argue as the Holy Spirit does not dwell in arguments, but for the other's on this forum who might be deceived by your false "proof", I just wanted to make clear all your "proof" is just you saying Jesus Christ our Lord is wrong.

 

For all others, we are not in the age of the seven seals, because Jesus himself said that the end time prophecies will be the greatest tribulation man has ever seen in the history of the world.  Which is why the Father in his mercy shortened the days of the tribulation, but for some to suggest we have are in those times now is calling Jesus and the Father a liar, since how is it shortened when for thousands of years since the 1st century we humans have lived full lives?  Did the Father cause every person to die at the age of 25? No, so how was it shortened so his promise could be fulfilled if we had to endure the seals for our entire life time for the last 2,000 years?  The answer is, because the great tribulation has not started yet, and none of the seals are opened yet. The Father is not a liar, but men are.

I am with you on disagreeing with DSA on some things; but on some things, he is dead on. However, I disagree with you also. In fact, DSA is absolutely correct in saying the first seal is first century. The truth is, the first 5 seals are first centuries. Were there martyrs in the early church? You know there were. Without a doubt, Stephen was one of those under the altar asking how long it would be before judgment time. 

What you have missed: chapters 4 and 5 are the context of the first seals. Miss the timing in these two chapters, and you miss the timing on the first seals. Miss the timing on the first seals, and your entire end-time theory will be off. I challenge you, when you read chapters 4 & 5, think of TIMING.  For example, what time would it have been when Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the father? What time would it have been when Jesus would NOT have been found worthy to open the seals?  What time would it have been when the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room?  WHEN did Jesus ascend and send the Holy Spirit down? All these things in in chapters 4 & 5.

Edited February 16, 2019 by iamlamad

[Last Daze]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Why do insist on writing what is not true! I think you know....for Example: 

thy wrath is come....this is a Greek Aorist verb that shows no tense at all. John stated that God's wrath began at the 6th seal and with the great earthquake. Later we read that the vials are filled with His wrath. 

the time of the dead, that they should be judged  We read in Rev. 20 that hell will not give up her dead until after the 1000 years.  Those who are beheaded will be resurrected later too. The dead in Christ will be rapture pretrib so they will judged at the judgment seat of Christ. The final judgment at the great white throne will be after the millennial reign. Therefore, this statement written in chapter 11 is prophetic and was not meant to be taken as NOW in John's narrative. 

shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.  This is a listed purpose of the Day of the Lord: to destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth.  Part of this destroying the sinners will come at Armageddon where most of the young fighting men of the world will be killed. Far more people will be destroyed at the sheep and goat judgment. Others will be destroyed when the parable of the tares is fulfilled. Again, this verse is prophetic and is not meant to be taken as NOW in John's narrative.  The rest of your post is RIGHT ON!  We need to be ready and EXPECTING His coming. 

 

You just can't let it go, can you?  I'm content with letting the passage of time reveal truth.  The last trumpet sounds on the last day.  Ours is to be ready and alert for that day.  Believe what you want.  I really don't care and I'm not going to argue about it.

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, I am NOT "making believe: I KNOW the first 5 seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book into His hands. Why would anyone doubt this?  I go by the CONTEXT: 

What does this scripture really say, if we ignore tradition and just read? It was still while John was
alive (obviously) and it was JOHN caught up to heaven to show him things to come, so we would have
Revelation to read. No one can find 2000 years of church history there! It is only imagined. 

If you read through chapters 4 & 5, they tell us a story, give us timing, and the movement of time.
Notice that this was a vision given around 95 AD, LONG after Jesus ascended, yet Jesus was NOT at the
right hand of the Father, nor anywhere in the throne room. That gives us timing. Then the Holy Spirit (As
the 7 spirits of God) WAS there, which also gives us timing. (Jesus had not yet ascended to send the Holy
Spirit down). Finally, a search was made for one worthy, yet NO MAN was found. All this shows us this was
a vision of the past: a time before Christ rose from the dead. In all of eternity past, present and
future, there was only 32 years when Jesus or "the WORD" was NOT at the right hand of the Father - and
that was during the 32 years He was on earth.

Finally in chapter 5, we see a CHANGE in time. Another search was made for one worth, and this time JESUS
was found! This tells us He had now risen from the dead to become the redeemer of mankind. Then John saw
the moment Jesus arrived into the throne room, right after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not
yet ascended. And the moment He arrived the Holy Spirit was sent down.

All this is giving us the CONTEXT of the seals: Jesus went straight to the Father, got the book, and
began breaking seals. Again, no one can find 2000 years in those verses or between them ever - for that
was not the intent of the Author. All this was to show that the first seal - the CHURCH sent out with the
GOSPEL - was opened around 32 AD. Then the next three seals, revealing the red horse, the black horse and
the pale horse, ride together - to represent Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the church. But God
limited them in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth.

The first HINT we see of a long period of waiting is at the 5th seal. These were the early martyrs. They are wondering when God will bring judgment. They did not know that judgment must wait for the age of grace to end.  They were told there is a number in the mind of God- the total number of church age martyrs. When that final number is reached, THEN judgment will come.  What will cause a certain martyr to be the LAST or final of this number? Of course, the end of the church age or age of grace. When the rapture hits, the very next martyr will be in a different group: a 70th week martyr. Judgment will begin a moment after the rapture with the wrath of God. 

If we study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, we see that Paul tied the Day of the Lord to the rapture. They are back to
back events that cannot be separated. The rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. And
further, Paul shows us that the start of the Day - the worldwide earthquake "sudden destruction" will be
the start of God's wrath. There is only ONE PLACE in Revelation where this scenario fits - and that is
just before the 6th seal that starts the Day of the Lord.

The church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seals almost 2000 years now. But VERY SOON the rapture will come, the age of Grace will be over, and God's wrath will begin with the start of the Day of the Lord.

I will give credit where credit is due: you did a FINE job on the accolades. But it seems you have MISSED the real context of the seals.  It also seems you have missed the intent of the Author in seals 2 through 4. 

When the seals are removed, the Jewish people will be able to 'see' the truth and accept Jesus (7th seal), thus ENDING the Church Age... TRUE  

No, FALSE!  The Jews will not accept Jesus until the SEE the nail prints in His hands. That will not come until chapter 19! They will remain deceived through much of the 70th week. That is just a fact: it is the very reason God must totally destroy their power (think IDF). And the church age ends between the 5th and 6th seal, NOT at the 7th. The 7th seal offically opens the 70th week.  You are close, but close does not count. 

At the 7th seal, the Church Age ends (the rapture all ready happened [6th seal],

Sorry, but this seems silly: the church age will end with the rapture, not some time after the rapture! 

the wedding party in heaven lasts "about half an hour" or 7 days)  Sorry, but this is error. The marriage and supper will come, but NOT HERE: they will come after the entire week has ended: that is why John told about them in chapter 19. The marriage must wait for the Old Testament saints to rise, and they will not rise until the "last day" or the last 24 hours of the 70th week. Just so you know, they will rise at the 7th vial. I suspect the supper may last 30 days. 

the blindness is removed with the sealing of the 144K (JEWS)) Sorry, WRONG! The blindness will have come off of these 144,000, but it will not come off must of the Hebrews until they SEE the nail prints in His hands.  I suspect these 144,000 are born again after they see the effects of the rapture - or after they actually SEE the rapture.  If they were born again before, they would have gone up with the church.

This 7th seal can be either at the start or end of the tribulation without causing any contradiction on the prophecy time line.  No it can't! This is ERROR gone to seed. The 7th seal has to be after the 6th for John numbered them - and it is the final seal sealing the book, so the book is opened as soon as the 7th seal is opened. Rev. 8 begins what is written INSIDE the book: the trumpet judgments. In other words, NO WAY any trumpet can or will be sounded until all 7 seals are opened.  

The first two trumpets represent the Rapture of the dead believers (first) followed by those who are ALIVE or "on the earth".   MORE error gone to seed. The rapture is a blessed event. The trumpets are JUDGMENTS! Do you imagine God is judging the church?  It is FAR MORE likely that the first three trumpet judgments are referring to nuclear warfare. One thing is certain, it is God beginning systematically to destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth, as the Old Testament tells us the Day of the Lord is to accomplish.  A nuke certainly will burn up all the grass over a HUGE area and destroy trees.  Just saying....

Chernobyl translated is "wormwood." I think God has given us a HUGE hint on the 3rd trumpet.  For the rapture, we have 1 Thes 4 & 5, and 1 Cor. 15. 

The fourth trumpet sees 1/3 of the sun, moon, and stars being darkened. The war in heaven causes 1/3 of the angels to be cast out. (The False Prophet)  Just more nonsense!  1/3 cast out of what or where? Where are you getting this? Yes, the lights in the sky dim. Period. Stop adding to scripture!

The start of the final 3.5 year tribulation.   WRONG AGAIN!  Daniel tells us the week will be divided in HALF. You inside there will be only 3.5 years. So what are earth timing is the first trumpets?  Did you not read Jesus that at the abomination (you know, the one that divides the week) THEN is when those in Judea flee? We see that fleeing begin in 12:6, PROVING beyond all doubt that that is the MIDPOINT of the 70th week. Of, for those that imagine only a half of a week left, that, 12:6 is were it begins. Actually, we must accunt for reaction time: they will begin to flee maybe a few seconds AFTER the abomination event. If we back up from 12:6 looking for a real time event, we get to the 7th trumpet. THAT is the exact midpoint of the 70th week. The 7th trumpet will sound when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews. The daily sacrifices will stop. Those in Judea that know, will begin fleeing.

"woe, woe, woe" (the three woes) are the the last three trumpets.  Finally! Hallelujah! Some truth! Good job here!

We know the first two occur in the "twinkling of an eye"  You IMAGINE that because you imagine they are the rapture. You were wrong then, and you are wrong here. Sorry to be so blunt, but it is true.

Of course, the 7th trumpet is the 2nd coming and start of the Millennium.  WRONG AGAIN! You amaze me. Did you just forget that His coming for Armageddon is in chapter 19? You are over 3.5 years off here. Well, I am not surprised, because you are 3.5 years off on the length of this enter time: it is 7 years, not 3.5! Did you ever think about how long Jacob had to work (EXTRA WORK) for the woman he loved? It was 7 years, NOT 3.5! Did you ever heard of "Jacob's trouble?"  

Again, credit where credit is due: you are RIGHT ON that the change of Millenniums is right here at the 7th trumpet. Good job! Few get this part right.

The "bowls" are poured out AFTER Jesus returns.  WRONG AGAIN! You are rearranging the book! STOP IT! You have no right to rearrange Revelation to fit your theory. ANY theory that must rearrange John's God Given chronology will be proven wrong.  Why be wrong when you can be right? Just leave Revelation as written and BELIEVE it! 

For the readers: this is so simple: the bowls are in chapter 16. The 70th week ENDS with the 7th bowl or vial. Jesus does not return until chapter 19, probably 30 days later. The bowls or vials are VERY MUCH a part of the 70th week. 

As usually, it seems we don't agree on much. 

First I have to say, you are constantly "adding" to what I have been saying and misrepresenting me at every turn by inserting things that I have NEVER asserted.

Nonetheless, We agree on the following: 1) John saw visions concerning the past (the cross [ch.4] and ascension [ch.5]) 

2)the 1st seal is the gospel

3) 5th seal is right before the rapture

4) 6th seal is the rapture

5) 7th seal is end of Church Age

All of those I actually agree on (and always have asserted)!

 

"madTeacher" (in italics)"No one can find 2000 years of church history there!"

Here, we have a problem. God does not act in the world without first telling his people what he will do. You and EVERYONE else assert that God has left the past 2000 years of Church history a BLANK slate in the Bible. Amillennialists say Rev. is for the most part completely fulfilled, while Premillennialists (desperately holding onto the false teaching of a 7 year tribulation) assert that the vase majority of Rev. will NOT be fulfilled until we (the Christians to whom the book was written) are GONE and will NEVER see any of it.

 

"I KNOW the first 5 seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book into His hands."

I think you mistyped here (trying to be nice)- and meant the first 4 seals.  The 5th seal sees MANY who HAVE BEEN martyred for the name of Jesus. So, at the ascension there were how many martyrs? ... hmmmm... let's count... = okay... 0! 

 

"Then the next three seals, revealing the red horse, the black horse and
the pale horse, ride together - to represent Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the church"

Sure, these CAN be released at the same time as the white horse per Zech. 6:1 which shows them coming from between two mountains (two covenants/ beliefs/ Churches = OT & NT), BUT Each seal is being introduced by a DIFFERENT beast. Rev. 6:3 says "the SECOND beast", Rev. 6:5 says of the third seal "the THIRD beast", and Rev. 6:6 says a voice came out from the midst of the 4 beasts to protect the "oil & wine" (protect the truth within all the deception and false teachings). The beasts are spirits while the "horses" are the ones spreading the message (the church or religious system) and the riders are the ones controlling the horses (the head or leader of the religious system). Each beast has a UNIQUE face and each horse has a UNIQUE color. By connecting Zech and Rev. we have the "direction" each horse is going, the "face" & "color" associated with each horse/seal, and the characteristics associated with each horse/seal. 

The purpose for the beasts is to always praise the Lord and thus draw people to Him - even from within the 'deepest pits of deception' so that no one will have an excuse. 

 

"The 7th seal officially opens the 70th week."

I will add this to the posts I all ready made concerning the 70th week... Jesus was the corner(stone), the nails went into His hands, & the covenants and judgments are His.

^{Zech 10:3} Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the Lord of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle.

⁴ Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, out of him every oppressor together.

 

"Do you imagine God is judging the church?"

Of course I do; but, NOT according to the Law. Those found "worthy" are spared from the final tribulation. Rom. 14:10 says we shall ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ. The rapture is NOT an entitlement, it is a reward for the true believers who are still alive. The parables from Matt show this.

Rev. 8:5 has the censer (the prayers of believers - those who have given themselves over to Christ) and fills it fire from the altar (sanctified) and hurls it INTO the earth. The dead in Christ who are buried or turned to dust. This is accompanied by "voices, thunderings, lightnings, AND an earthquake" (supernatural heavenly interference). Earthquake is used whenever there are people taken up to heaven (like the resurrection at the end of the tribulation). The dead shall RISE FIRST. (attached to the 6th seal)

The FIRST trumpet then is focused ON the earth and is targeting the LIVING. (also attached to the 6th seal) Grass = people - a metaphor (do NOT disagree with Scripture)...

1Peter 1:24 "For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass."

Isa. 40:6 "All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass."

Ps. 90:5 "Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up. 6  In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth."

 

"Did you not read Jesus that at the abomination (you know, the one that divides the week) THEN is when those in Judea flee? We see that fleeing begin in 12:6, PROVING beyond all doubt that that is the MIDPOINT of the 70th week."

That is not proof for a 7 year tribulation. Fleeing from the wrath within the context of NT books was written to believers (BEFORE 70ad) so that they will leave Jerusalem as soon as the AoD was set up. The Christians were the ONLY ones who fled Jerusalem because the false prophets told the people that God would protect them and not allow the heathens to defeat them. The same scenario occurred throughout history. Rev. AND Dan. say that the Jews are protected during the final tribulation. The woman in Rev. 12 verse can only refer to Israel (see Gen. 37). Gal. 4:19-26 describes the Jerusalem (in heaven) as the "mother of us all". Who are these? - The believers/ the people of faith. The rapture of the true believers is seen in the birth while the 3.5 years of protection is granted the nation of Israel. The A/C will eventually try to take it by force at the end of tribulation (Armageddon), but in the beginning, he can't hurt them (or the two witnesses) so he goes after the left-behind Christians and any NEW believers during the tribulation.

 

"Of, for those that imagine only a half of a week left, that, 12:6 is were it begins. Actually, we must account for reaction time: they will begin to flee maybe a few seconds AFTER the abomination event. If we back up from 12:6 looking for a real time event, we get to the 7th trumpet. THAT is the exact midpoint of the 70th week. The 7th trumpet will sound when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews. The daily sacrifices will stop. Those in Judea that know, will begin fleeing."

"Again, credit where credit is due: you are RIGHT ON that the change of Millenniums is right here at the 7th trumpet."

Okay, does anyone (everyone) else see this? ... the 7th trumpet is at the midpoint of the tribulation and the Millennium begins at the 7th trumpet. 

 

"For the readers: this is so simple: the bowls are in chapter 16. The 70th week ENDS with the 7th bowl or vial. Jesus does not return until chapter 19, probably 30 days later. The bowls or vials are VERY MUCH a part of the 70th week."

Rev. 15:2 "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

This is BEFORE the first bowl is released. Who are these that have conquered over the mark and over the beast? They are singing the "song of Moses". What is this song? Let's see..

Exod. 15:1-7 "Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him. The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name. Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea. The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone. Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble."

Notice also the beast and false prophet have all ready been defeated. That means Jesus has returned and threw them into the lake of fire. 

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

2 hours ago, Mal'ak said:

 

You have not proven anything, you said "white is not referred to in regards to describe evil, so all other scripture must be dismissed" that is complete nonsense.  There are many times in the Bible that the Father explains things to us, but he uses completely different wording and examples to try and get the point across, so your entire "proof" is false.

I don't think I said "so all other Scripture must be dismissed" - maybe you are pulling up something the madteacher said that I said? He likes to do that. So, show us where the Bible uses the word white in that way. My entire "proof" is false because you said "God uses different wording and examples to explain things".  Not logical.

2 hours ago, Mal'ak said:

 

You have not proven anything about the time of the end, using symbolic numbers and times in Revelation is the same as saying real man size scorpions are coming to eat our brains, it is false and on top of that childish logic.  On top of that Jesus said the time stated in Bible, even if they were real numbers, where shortened for our sake so we could handle the tribulation "Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." No where does it say what the Tribulation was shortened too, so again another false statement and nothing proven.

If you see the Matt 24 verses as referring to 70ad it would make sense. The letters in the NT were directed to the people of the first century much more than they were to us (2000 years later). That's what you call correct "context" in the same way you will say "Hebrews" is directed at Jewish believers. And by the way, there are NO man size scorpions in Rev. 

2 hours ago, Mal'ak said:

 

Again with the 1st century, is another false doctrine, as you are rejecting the Word of Christ once again to fit your tradition of man. "Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."  Jesus tells us nothing of the prophecy will take place until the Word of God is preached to the entire world, so that everyone on the Earth has a chance to know Christ and it is fair. In the first century there were a few scattered churches only in the Roman Empire, because Paul only traveled through the Empire.

2 hours ago, Mal'ak said:

 

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, I have just explained in great detail about the beasts in heaven being the spirit of God and moving out into the world to do what? To praise God and give no excuse to anyone even those deeply seated in the worst false teachings.

2 hours ago, Mal'ak said:

 

The context of the entire chapter six starts at chapter one, when John was brought "in the Spirit on the Lord's day".  Which we known from many sources like Paul in Corinthians, the Lord's Day is "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", which they are still waiting for in the 1st century when Paul wrote the letter to the Corinthians. I was not going to reply, because I do not argue as the Holy Spirit does not dwell in arguments, but for the other's on this forum who might be deceived by your false "proof", I just wanted to make clear all your "proof" is just you saying Jesus Christ our Lord is wrong.

 

For all others, we are not in the age of the seven seals, because Jesus himself said that the end time prophecies will be the greatest tribulation man has ever seen in the history of the world. Which is why the Father in his mercy shortened the days of the tribulation, but for some to suggest we have are in those times now is calling Jesus and the Father a liar, since how is it shortened when for thousands of years since the 1st century we humans have lived full lives?  Did the Father cause every person to die at the age of 25? No, so how was it shortened so his promise could be fulfilled if we had to endure the seals for our entire life time for the last 2,000 years?  The answer is, because the great tribulation has not started yet, and none of the seals are opened yet. The Father is not a liar, but men are.

The Great tribulation has been the Church Age (last 2000 years). It must be shortened or else sooner or later, nukes will destroy the planet. The killing has been the worst in history and has only escalated since the first century. 

The 1st chapter shows John things that HAVE BEEN, THINGS THAT ARE, and THINGS THAT WILL BE. There is a past, present, future tone to this. The spirits move out into the world through the seals being released. The four beasts are symbolically released, but remain in heaven as seen in the third seal opening which portrays a voice calling out from the midst of the 4 beasts. Their association is proven through the Scriptures that I have presented. 

So, Pre-millennialism (7 year tribbers) says MOST of Rev. does NOT matter because it has not yet begun. Amillennialism says it does not matter because MOST of it is all ready finished. Why did God even bother giving it to us? Why would God say it is so important for us to teach in the churches if none of it even matters? 

 

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

First I have to say, you are constantly "adding" to what I have been saying and misrepresenting me at every turn by inserting things that I have NEVER asserted.

Nonetheless, We agree on the following: 1) John saw visions concerning the past (the cross [ch.4] and ascension [ch.5]) 

2)the 1st seal is the gospel

3) 5th seal is right before the rapture

4) 6th seal is the rapture

5) 7th seal is end of Church Age

All of those I actually agree on (and always have asserted)!

 

"madTeacher" (in italics)"No one can find 2000 years of church history there!"

Here, we have a problem. God does not act in the world without first telling his people what he will do. You and EVERYONE else assert that God has left the past 2000 years of Church history a BLANK slate in the Bible. Amillennialists say Rev. is for the most part completely fulfilled, while Premillennialists (desperately holding onto the false teaching of a 7 year tribulation) assert that the vase majority of Rev. will NOT be fulfilled until we (the Christians to whom the book was written) are GONE and will NEVER see any of it.

 

"I KNOW the first 5 seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book into His hands."

I think you mistyped here (trying to be nice)- and meant the first 4 seals.  The 5th seal sees MANY who HAVE BEEN martyred for the name of Jesus. So, at the ascension there were how many martyrs? ... hmmmm... let's count... = okay... 0! 

 

"Then the next three seals, revealing the red horse, the black horse and
the pale horse, ride together - to represent Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the church"

Sure, these CAN be released at the same time as the white horse per Zech. 6:1 which shows them coming from between two mountains (two covenants/ beliefs/ Churches = OT & NT), BUT Each seal is being introduced by a DIFFERENT beast. Rev. 6:3 says "the SECOND beast", Rev. 6:5 says of the third seal "the THIRD beast", and Rev. 6:6 says a voice came out from the midst of the 4 beasts to protect the "oil & wine" (protect the truth within all the deception and false teachings). The beasts are spirits while the "horses" are the ones spreading the message (the church or religious system) and the riders are the ones controlling the horses (the head or leader of the religious system). Each beast has a UNIQUE face and each horse has a UNIQUE color. By connecting Zech and Rev. we have the "direction" each horse is going, the "face" & "color" associated with each horse/seal, and the characteristics associated with each horse/seal. 

The purpose for the beasts is to always praise the Lord and thus draw people to Him - even from within the 'deepest pits of deception' so that no one will have an excuse. 

 

"The 7th seal officially opens the 70th week."

I will add this to the posts I all ready made concerning the 70th week... Jesus was the corner(stone), the nails went into His hands, & the covenants and judgments are His.

^{Zech 10:3} Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the Lord of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle.

⁴ Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, out of him every oppressor together.

 

"Do you imagine God is judging the church?"

Of course I do; but, NOT according to the Law. Those found "worthy" are spared from the final tribulation. Rom. 14:10 says we shall ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ. The rapture is NOT an entitlement, it is a reward for the true believers who are still alive. The parables from Matt show this.

Rev. 8:5 has the censer (the prayers of believers - those who have given themselves over to Christ) and fills it fire from the altar (sanctified) and hurls it INTO the earth. The dead in Christ who are buried or turned to dust. This is accompanied by "voices, thunderings, lightnings, AND an earthquake" (supernatural heavenly interference). Earthquake is used whenever there are people taken up to heaven (like the resurrection at the end of the tribulation). The dead shall RISE FIRST. (attached to the 6th seal)

The FIRST trumpet then is focused ON the earth and is targeting the LIVING. (also attached to the 6th seal) Grass = people - a metaphor (do NOT disagree with Scripture)...

1Peter 1:24 "For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass."

Isa. 40:6 "All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass."

Ps. 90:5 "Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up. 6  In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth."

 

"Did you not read Jesus that at the abomination (you know, the one that divides the week) THEN is when those in Judea flee? We see that fleeing begin in 12:6, PROVING beyond all doubt that that is the MIDPOINT of the 70th week."

That is not proof for a 7 year tribulation. Fleeing from the wrath within the context of NT books was written to believers (BEFORE 70ad) so that they will leave Jerusalem as soon as the AoD was set up. The Christians were the ONLY ones who fled Jerusalem because the false prophets told the people that God would protect them and not allow the heathens to defeat them. The same scenario occurred throughout history. Rev. AND Dan. say that the Jews are protected during the final tribulation. The woman in Rev. 12 verse can only refer to Israel (see Gen. 37). Gal. 4:19-26 describes the Jerusalem (in heaven) as the "mother of us all". Who are these? - The believers/ the people of faith. The rapture of the true believers is seen in the birth while the 3.5 years of protection is granted the nation of Israel. The A/C will eventually try to take it by force at the end of tribulation (Armageddon), but in the beginning, he can't hurt them (or the two witnesses) so he goes after the left-behind Christians and any NEW believers during the tribulation.

 

"Of, for those that imagine only a half of a week left, that, 12:6 is were it begins. Actually, we must account for reaction time: they will begin to flee maybe a few seconds AFTER the abomination event. If we back up from 12:6 looking for a real time event, we get to the 7th trumpet. THAT is the exact midpoint of the 70th week. The 7th trumpet will sound when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews. The daily sacrifices will stop. Those in Judea that know, will begin fleeing."

"Again, credit where credit is due: you are RIGHT ON that the change of Millenniums is right here at the 7th trumpet."

Okay, does anyone (everyone) else see this? ... the 7th trumpet is at the midpoint of the tribulation and the Millennium begins at the 7th trumpet. 

 

"For the readers: this is so simple: the bowls are in chapter 16. The 70th week ENDS with the 7th bowl or vial. Jesus does not return until chapter 19, probably 30 days later. The bowls or vials are VERY MUCH a part of the 70th week."

Rev. 15:2 "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

This is BEFORE the first bowl is released. Who are these that have conquered over the mark and over the beast? They are singing the "song of Moses". What is this song? Let's see..

Exod. 15:1-7 "Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him. The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name. Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea. The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone. Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble."

Notice also the beast and false prophet have all ready been defeated. That means Jesus has returned and threw them into the lake of fire. 

you are constantly "adding" to what I have been saying and misrepresenting me at every turn by inserting things that I have NEVER asserted. If I have, it has been unintentional.  Sometimes I get carried away and come against others errors, as in prewrath, or postrib.  I think I quoted you accurately, as I just copied and pasted. 

2)the 1st seal is the gospel   Here we agree.

3) 5th seal is right before the rapture  The fifth seal was opened in 32 AD with the first, second, third and fourth. It is church age martyrs.

4) 6th seal is the rapture  I believe the rapture will TRIGGER the 6th seal - so rapture first.

5) 7th seal is end of Church Age  I believe the church age ends with the rapture. Why you don't I cannot imagine.

All of those I actually agree on (and always have asserted)!   I think you miss the mark on the last three. 

 

"No one can find 2000 years of church history there!"

Here, we have a problem. God does not act in the world without first telling his people what he will do.   He HAS told us: it is included in Revelation! He has outlined the entire 70th week and then way on into eternity future.  What I said is still truth: in Rev. 5, after Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down, John did not write in any  2000 years there. What do I mean? The first seals are at the same time: seconds after Jesus ascended and got the book into His hands.

Premillennialists (desperately holding onto the false teaching of a 7 year tribulation)  This is MYTH! We only believe the truth: there is a 7 year period of time coming: the trumpet judgments will come in the first half and the vials in the second half.  You are very mistaken in thinking the trumpets have ANYTHING to do with the church: mistaken as in VERY WRONG.  

What you are missing:  The seals are sealing a BOOK: preventing the book from being opened until the proper time.  THE BOOK is the countdown to Satan losing his position as god of this world. Once the 7th seal is opened then THE BOOK is opened. What we read in Chapter 8 is what is written inside the book: the trumpet judgments. Make no mistake: the first six are JUDGMENTS!

the vase majority of Rev. will NOT be fulfilled until we (the Christians to whom the book was written) are GONE and will NEVER see any of it.  What is THE TRUTH? Don't we want to believe what is TRUTH? The truth is, God's wrath begins at the 6th seal and the rapture will take us out before God's wrath begins. I though you believed this!  Therefore the raptured church will see NO trumpet judgment or no vials. They will see nothing of what is included in chapters 8 through 18. I think that IS the "vast majority" of Revelation.

I think you mistyped here (trying to be nice)- and meant the first 4 seals.  The 5th seal sees MANY who HAVE BEEN martyred for the name of Jesus. So, at the ascension there were how many martyrs? ... hmmmm... let's count... = okay... 0!   Ha! TOUCHE! I think you have something: there were at last a FEW martyrs when John saw them. I will have to think about this. It was still a VISION John was seeing. There can be TIME and TIMING in a vision. But a vision can skip over time and make it appear as if very little time had passed.  So John, in a vision, was looking back in time to the moment Jesus got the book into His hands and began opening the seals. It would appear that Jesus waited a few years to open seal 5. In the vision, that time was not seen or recorded. For the long extended time, I am going by what was told to the martyrs: that they would have to wait for a long time, for the very last martyr to be killed as they were. Therefore I think the first five seals are early church, and the church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seal all this time.  Thanks for giving me the benefit of doubt! I guess I needed it here. Sorry, but I don't think these horses have ANYTHING to do with the horses in Zech. I think it is a mistake to use anything there to attempt to understand these. They were for a different purpose. Here in Revelation the color seems to go along with the purpose. 

protect the "oil & wine" (protect the truth within all the deception and false teachings)  I think we disagree here. The black horse is FAMINE. It is one device Satan has used to send missionaries home - or keep them from coming in the first place! The purpose is to stop the advance of the gospel. I think what the oil and wine are telling us is that there IS food, but the price is exorbitant. Where a family could eat wheat bread, now they can only afford barley.  Oil and wine are only for the rich!

Note: I don't think these are real horses and riders: i think they are symbolic to represent the church taking the gospel to the world, and they the methods the devil would use to stop the gospel from advancing.  Is the gospel REALLY a white horse with a rider? No, I think the white horse and rider REPRESENT the gospel sent forth.

Of course, there would be a little bit of time between each seal; as you say, one of the Beast's saying, "come and see." I still think that Jesus opened these seals as soon as He got the book into His hands. But then, this is still a VISION John is seeing. And at this time, it was still a vision of John's past: events that happened around 60 years previous.  I will close this out and finish with another post.

 

[iamlamad]

46 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

...

"The 7th seal officially opens the 70th week."

I will add this to the posts I all ready made concerning the 70th week... Jesus was the corner(stone), the nails went into His hands, & the covenants and judgments are His.

^{Zech 10:3} Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the Lord of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle.

⁴ Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, out of him every oppressor together.

 

"Do you imagine God is judging the church?"

Of course I do; but, NOT according to the Law. Those found "worthy" are spared from the final tribulation. Rom. 14:10 says we shall ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ. The rapture is NOT an entitlement, it is a reward for the true believers who are still alive. The parables from Matt show this.

Rev. 8:5 has the censer (the prayers of believers - those who have given themselves over to Christ) and fills it fire from the altar (sanctified) and hurls it INTO the earth. The dead in Christ who are buried or turned to dust. This is accompanied by "voices, thunderings, lightnings, AND an earthquake" (supernatural heavenly interference). Earthquake is used whenever there are people taken up to heaven (like the resurrection at the end of the tribulation). The dead shall RISE FIRST. (attached to the 6th seal)

The FIRST trumpet then is focused ON the earth and is targeting the LIVING. (also attached to the 6th seal) Grass = people - a metaphor (do NOT disagree with Scripture)...

1Peter 1:24 "For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass."

Isa. 40:6 "All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass."

Ps. 90:5 "Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up. 6  In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth."

 

"Did you not read Jesus that at the abomination (you know, the one that divides the week) THEN is when those in Judea flee? We see that fleeing begin in 12:6, PROVING beyond all doubt that that is the MIDPOINT of the 70th week."

That is not proof for a 7 year tribulation. Fleeing from the wrath within the context of NT books was written to believers (BEFORE 70ad) so that they will leave Jerusalem as soon as the AoD was set up. The Christians were the ONLY ones who fled Jerusalem because the false prophets told the people that God would protect them and not allow the heathens to defeat them. The same scenario occurred throughout history. Rev. AND Dan. say that the Jews are protected during the final tribulation. The woman in Rev. 12 verse can only refer to Israel (see Gen. 37). Gal. 4:19-26 describes the Jerusalem (in heaven) as the "mother of us all". Who are these? - The believers/ the people of faith. The rapture of the true believers is seen in the birth while the 3.5 years of protection is granted the nation of Israel. The A/C will eventually try to take it by force at the end of tribulation (Armageddon), but in the beginning, he can't hurt them (or the two witnesses) so he goes after the left-behind Christians and any NEW believers during the tribulation.

 

"Of, for those that imagine only a half of a week left, that, 12:6 is were it begins. Actually, we must account for reaction time: they will begin to flee maybe a few seconds AFTER the abomination event. If we back up from 12:6 looking for a real time event, we get to the 7th trumpet. THAT is the exact midpoint of the 70th week. The 7th trumpet will sound when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews. The daily sacrifices will stop. Those in Judea that know, will begin fleeing."

"Again, credit where credit is due: you are RIGHT ON that the change of Millenniums is right here at the 7th trumpet."

Okay, does anyone (everyone) else see this? ... the 7th trumpet is at the midpoint of the tribulation and the Millennium begins at the 7th trumpet. 

 

"For the readers: this is so simple: the bowls are in chapter 16. The 70th week ENDS with the 7th bowl or vial. Jesus does not return until chapter 19, probably 30 days later. The bowls or vials are VERY MUCH a part of the 70th week."

Rev. 15:2 "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

This is BEFORE the first bowl is released. Who are these that have conquered over the mark and over the beast? They are singing the "song of Moses". What is this song? Let's see..

Exod. 15:1-7 "Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him. The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name. Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea. The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone. Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble."

Notice also the beast and false prophet have all ready been defeated. That means Jesus has returned and threw them into the lake of fire. 

"Do you imagine God is judging the church?"  Of course I do  I cannot understand your thinking. The church has been made the very righteousness of Jesus Christ! When God looks down at us, He sees Jesus' righteousness! We overcame the enemy when we got born again and changed from God's enemies to His children. I don't think God has one tiny desire to allow His kids to go through His wrath.  

If so, WHERE in Revelation is the church judged? Perhaps in chapters 2 & 3 only - except these  churches disappeared. 

Those found "worthy" are spared from the final tribulation  What do you mean by FINAL tribulation? The church is not going through ANY of the 70th week, for that entire week is God's wrath being poured out. Note carefully that the great crowd, too large to number, are seen in heaven before any of the 70th week.

Rom. 14:10 says we shall ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ.  True, but this is NOT the judgment of God directed toward sinners! It is not any of the judgments in Revelation from the 6th seal onward. 

fills it fire from the altar (sanctified) and hurls it INTO the earth. The dead in Christ who are buried or turned to dust.   Say WHAT? Your timing is OFF! The dead in Christ were raised just before the 6th seal, back in Rev. 6. They are NO LONGER IN THE GROUND! You are in Rev. 8. The book has been opened: what is written in the book is about to take place: the trumpet judgments. Are you rearranging Revelation to fit a theory?

Earthquake is used whenever there are people taken up to heaven  I think you missed it again. Matthew 27 shows us an earthquake when God raised the elders of the Old Testament. Think about it! Adam would surely be considered one of the elders. Anyway, they have all been LONG dead. Their bodies long since turned to dust. But in one tiny instant of time (a microsecond?) God will bring those particles together - particles which could be many miles apart! this resurrection of the elders caused a great earthquake. I think it sets a precedent: when people long dead are raised, it will cause and earthquake. I also think it is a very REAL earthquake. When the dead in Christ are raised, that too will cause a great, worldwide earthquake: Paul's "sudden destruction" and the earthquake at the 6th seal. 

The FIRST trumpet then is focused ON the earth and is targeting the LIVING. (also attached to the 6th seal) Grass = people - a metaphor (do NOT disagree with Scripture)...  It was not meant to be a metaphor!  Is God not allowed to speak of grass and trees as REAL grass and trees?  I think God is telling us the 70th week will begin with at least ONE nuclear bomb.  Why do you say "the living?" God has said that THE DAY is about destroying the earth and the sinners on the earth. If all the grass is destroyed, and 1/3 of trees, is that not destroying a part of the earth?  Yes, of course flesh is AS grass, as in very short lived! But there is also GRASS. How about a verse that ties no grass to the Day of the Lord?

Joel 1  

¹⁵ Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

¹⁶ Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God?

¹⁷ The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered.

¹⁸ How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

¹⁹ O Lord, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.

²⁰ The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

In other words, there IS real grass, and it is going to be burned up.  Again, I suspect nukes. 

That is not proof for a 7 year tribulation. Fleeing from the wrath within the context of NT books was written to believers (BEFORE 70ad) so that they will leave Jerusalem as soon as the AoD was set up.  I think this is MYTH! As a TYPE of the Beast, Antiochus set up an altar of ZEUS in the Holy of Holies.  Scripture tells us the Beast of Rev. 13 will do something very similar as the anti-type. It will be the man of sin, according to Paul. HE will enter the holy place, but will also set up an image there.  I am convinced, the Luke version of the Olivet Discourse was written as a DOUBLE prophecy: still a prophecy of our future, but written so as to warn the Christians in 70 AD.  Luke wrote, "when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" THEN flee. Finally, there WAS NO AoD set up in 70 AD in scripture.  70 AD is NOT what Daniel was writing about in chapter 9:27. 

Rev. AND Dan. say that the Jews are protected during the final tribulation.  Well, at least 1/3 of them will! Probably those that flee and perhaps some others. But many will be killed. 

The rapture of the true believers is seen in the birth   If you are referring to the first five verses of chapter 12, this statement is MYTH.

Rev. 15:2 "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God." Oh, my friend, this is so simple! These are the FIRST of those beheaded by the Beast for refusing to bow and refusing the mark! In other words, at the end of chapter 14, or between 14 and 15, the image is now created and the mark ready to be enforced. The murder regime begins.

Notice also the beast and false prophet have all ready been defeated. That means Jesus has returned and threw them into the lake of fire.   More MYTH! They will not be defeated until Jesus returns, and He will not leave heaven until chapter 19 AFTER the entire   will finish later

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

I don't think I said "so all other Scripture must be dismissed" - maybe you are pulling up something the madteacher said that I said? He likes to do that. So, show us where the Bible uses the word white in that way. My entire "proof" is false because you said "God uses different wording and examples to explain things".  Not logical.

If you see the Matt 24 verses as referring to 70ad it would make sense. The letters in the NT were directed to the people of the first century much more than they were to us (2000 years later). That's what you call correct "context" in the same way you will say "Hebrews" is directed at Jewish believers. And by the way, there are NO man size scorpions in Rev. 

Yes, I have just explained in great detail about the beasts in heaven being the spirit of God and moving out into the world to do what? To praise God and give no excuse to anyone even those deeply seated in the worst false teachings.

The Great tribulation has been the Church Age (last 2000 years). It must be shortened or else sooner or later, nukes will destroy the planet. The killing has been the worst in history and has only escalated since the first century. 

The 1st chapter shows John things that HAVE BEEN, THINGS THAT ARE, and THINGS THAT WILL BE. There is a past, present, future tone to this. The spirits move out into the world through the seals being released. The four beasts are symbolically released, but remain in heaven as seen in the third seal opening which portrays a voice calling out from the midst of the 4 beasts. Their association is proven through the Scriptures that I have presented. 

So, Pre-millennialism (7 year tribbers) says MOST of Rev. does NOT matter because it has not yet begun. Amillennialism says it does not matter because MOST of it is all ready finished. Why did God even bother giving it to us? Why would God say it is so important for us to teach in the churches if none of it even matters? 

Perhaps from God's perspective the church age has been "great tribulation." But Jesus also said there would be days of GT starting at the abomination event that will divide the week. "THEN shall be great tribulation..."   I am sure of this: when a martyr is killed, he cannot be killed again - as if to make his "tribulation" greater - he can only be killed ONCE! So for him or her that is martyred, it WAS "great tribulation."  It was this GT of the last half of the 70th week that Jesus was referring to that had to be shortened - NOT the church age. In fact, God will pour out the vials of His wrath to shorten the days of GT.

it DOES matter because it is God telling us ahead of time what He is about to do. It is a great book to encourage us: we know what the "last page" says! We know who wins.  

Edited February 17, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

You just can't let it go, can you?  I'm content with letting the passage of time reveal truth.  The last trumpet sounds on the last day.  Ours is to be ready and alert for that day.  Believe what you want.  I really don't care and I'm not going to argue about it.

God has placed me in the office of the teacher. God created teachers to keep church doctrine straight. Teachers SHUDDER when they read something not true. Therefore, sorry, but it is in my nature and calling to answer. If you are content: so be it! Be content. As we say, "let the chips fall as they may."  

Now that you mention it: "the last trumpet." It could be the last of a series, but Paul did not tell us what series. It could be the very last trumpet blast of the church age - but Paul did not tell us. 

A trumpet WILL sound at the rapture. Without much doubt, it will be the final long blast at the Feast of Trumpets. It will probably then be the very last of that feast of trumpets, and it will probably be the very last trumpet to sound in the church age.

[R. Hartono]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

God has placed me in the office of the teacher. God created teachers to keep church doctrine straight.

Let me ask you why would God hide Evangelism with the 1st seal ? Everybody knows already about Jesus ministry from the start, its no secret at all, Jesus evangelism has started about 50 years before John rcvd the Revelation and you say the 1st seal is Jesus revealed winning people, why would this be hidden with the seal as its no secret at all ! Why would God hide the things that people already know with a seal ? Doesnt make sense.

Edited February 17, 2019 by R. Hartono