There are two different horse Riders of Revelation.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Let me ask you why would God hide Evangelism with the 1st seal ? Everybody knows already about Jesus ministry from the start, its no secret at all, Jesus evangelism has started about 50 years before John rcvd the Revelation and you say the 1st seal is Jesus revealed winning people, why would this be hidden with the seal as its no secret at all ! Why would God hide the things that people already know with a seal ? Doesnt make sense.

You are still lost. The purpose of the seals is not to HIDE anything! They are sealing the book so it cannot be opened by ANYONE  until all seven seals are opened. It seems this is the deal made between God and the devil. Trust me: the devil was SURE no man would EVER become worthy to open the seals. Why? Because it would take someone to escape out of hell's grasp and live again!  Satan was sure  no one could esape out of hell. (Hell being Hades, the place of departed spirits.)

Satan was SURE this deal would mean he could remain the god of this world forever. He did not even imagine someone could live their life out without sinning. Thank God, Jesus did. 

Therefore, seals are not "secrets." They are sealing a book.  There is a sequence of events before the book can be opened:

1. Someone must live a sinless life on earth.

2. That someone must have the power to give His life and take it up again.

3. That someone must then die, and raise from the dead, and  become the redeemer of mankind. 

4. Then that someone must ascend into heaven,, take the book from the Father's hands, and begin opening the seals.

This is how Jesus because worthy and was found worthy to take the book and open the seals. The seals are the history of the church, starting with the great commission. Could the gospel go to all nations? Or could Satan keep the gospel confined to that 1/4 of the earth assigned to him? You do remember the verse: the gospel must go to all nations and THEN the end will come?  You can be SURE, Satan never thought a day like today would ever come! The gospel is everywhere.  The first 5 seals have been opened. Soon the book will be opened and the countdown to Satan's demise will begin: the 7 trumpet judgments.

Nothing is "hidden." God has revealed this all to us.

[R. Hartono]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are still lost. The purpose of the seals is not to HIDE anything!

Apostle John wept much because if nobody could open the seals then the SECRETS of end times remained SEALED !!!!!!!

Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

How could you say the seal do not hide anything if John even wept as he feared the secret could not be revealed.

Edited February 18, 2019 by R. Hartono

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Apostle John wept much because if nobody could open the seals then the SECRETS of end times remained SEALED !!!!!!!

Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

How could you say the seal do not hide anything if John even wept as he feared the secret could not be revealed.

John may or may not have known what was inside the book: what he did know was that it was very important to find someone worthy to open these seals.  The truth is, it WAS very important  - for it no one was found, Satan would remain the god of this world forever. 

Was the gospel going forth a "secret?" Was the devil's attempts to stop the gospel a secret? Was the martyrs a secret? No, none of these things represented by the seals are or were "secrets." Perhaps what was a secret was that known events were tied to seals. 

If you wish to think of the seals as secrets, it is not a serious thing. 

If angels had been doing this ongoing search for one worthy - does that not in and of itself denote something very important?

Edited February 18, 2019 by iamlamad

[Spock]

On 2/2/2019 at 10:30 AM, Revelation Man said:

I think people miss who the MANY is......

Dan. 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with MANY for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So who are THE MANY ? We know who the Holy people are, that's obvious. Well Daniel 11:40-43 tells us who the MANY are !!

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north (Anti-Christ/Little Horn) shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land,(Israel) AND many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. (Southern Jordan today, or the Petra and Bozrah areas where Israel ESCAPE to and God protects them for 1260 days. Amen)

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

So the Anti-Christ/Little Horn Conquers Israel and THE MANY in the Mediterranean Sea Region, thus he's a Beast of the WHOLE REGION just like all the other 6 Beasts Heads were. The strange thing is, these AGREEMENTS are already in place, Satan is just waiting on the Rapture to release his Beast. We know this by reading a Wikipedia Article on the European Neighborhood Policy. And they have SEVEN YEAR AGREEMENTS in place now !! 

(Per Wikipedia) The European Neighbourhood Policy (ENP) is a foreign relations instrument of the European Union (EU) which seeks to tie those countries to the east and south of the European territory of the EU to the Union. These countries, primarily developing countries, include some who seek to one day become either a member state of the European Union, or more closely integrated with the European Union. 

The countries covered include Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Palestine, Syria, Tunisia in the South (THE MANY). The EU offers financial assistance to countries within the European Neighbourhood, so long as they meet the strict conditions of government reform, economic reform and other issues surrounding positive transformation. This process is normally underpinned by an Action Plan, as agreed by both Brussels and the target country. 

The EU typically concludes Association Agreements in exchange for commitments to political, economic, trade, or human rights reform in a country. In exchange, the country may be offered tariff-free access to some or all EU markets (industrial goods, agricultural products, etc.), and financial or technical assistance.

The European Union's European Neighbourhood Policy (ENP) aims at bringing Europe and its neighbours closer. It was conceived after the 2004 enlargement of the European Union with 10 new member countries, in order to avoid creating new borders in Europe. It is also designed to prevent the emergence of new dividing lines between the enlarged EU and its neighbours. The vision is that of a ring of countries, drawn into further integration, but without necessarily becoming full members of the European Union. The policy was first outlined by the European Commission in March 2003.

On 25 May 2011, the European Commission launched what it described as a new and ambitious European Neighbourhood Policy, backed by more than €1.2 billion in new funding, bringing the total to almost €7 billion. The main priorities and directions of a revitalised ENP strategy are set out in the Joint Communication by the European Commission and the High Representative for Foreign Affairs, titled "A new response to a changing Neighbourhood". It seeks to strengthen individual and regional relationships between the EU and countries in its neighbourhood through a "more funds for more reform" approach – making more additional funds available, but with more mutual accountability.

In the South the first comprehensive policy for the region was the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership (or Barcelona Process) a wide framework of political, economic and social relations between member states of the EU and countries of the Southern Mediterranean. It was initiated on 27–28 November 1995 through a conference of Ministers of Foreign Affairs, held in Barcelona. Besides the 28 member states of the European Union, the remaining "Mediterranean Partners" are all other Mediterranean countries including Libya (which had 'observer status' from 1999 to 2012).

Funding the policy: from ENPI to ENI (Carrot and the Stick and "7 year Agreements", Name changes from European Neighborhood Policy Instrument to European Neighborhood Instrument.)

Giving incentives and rewarding best performers, as well as offering funds in a faster and more flexible manner, are the two main principles underlying the European Neighbourhood Instrument (ENI) that came into force in 2014.[3] It has a budget of €15.4 billion and provides the bulk of funding through a number of programmes. The ENI, effective from 2014 to 2020 (7 YEARS), replaces the European Neighbourhood and Partnership Instrument – known as the ENPI. This cooperation instrument continues to be managed by DG Development and Cooperation - EuropeAid, which turns decisions taken on a political level into actions on the ground. ENPI funding approved for the period 2007-2013 (7 YEARS) was €11.2 billion.

So this Little Horn/Anti-Christ or European Beast not only enters into AGREEMENTS (7 YEAR Covenant)) with Israel, but with MANY [Nations] in the Mediterranean Sea  Region !! The Beast's were all Beasts over not only Israel but all were over the Mediterranean Sea Region from Egypt to Babylon to Rome, including of course Assyria, Persia and Greece, the coming Anti-Christ will of course be the 7th Beast Head. 

Notice these two illustrations/Maps, the Old Roman Empire FOOTPRINT is exactly the same as a Map with these Nations added in via the ENPI. 

Old Roman Empire Map Below

European Neighborhood Policy Instrument Map Below

With these additional countries to the south, the European Union suddenly looks EXACTLY LIKE the Old Roman Empire comparing the two Maps thus the Little Horn and 10 Kings come out of the Head of the Fourth Beast, but it is not the Fourth Beast !! They have 7 Year Agreements in place as we speak, this way at the Rapture the Anti-Christ will already have his BASIC FRAMEWORK in place !! The E.U. has the CARROT and STICK in place, so when the Anti-Christ come to power and the Rapture happens he will use this ENTANGLEMENT to CONFIRM or FORCE his Agreements on these MANY Nations including Israel (Kind of like Trump is redoing, justly so, our trade deals). then after 3.5 years he will of course RENEGE on these Agreements and Conquer Israel and the MANY [Nations] just as Dan. 11:40-43 says. BOOM !!

 

Hey RM,

i want to tell you, you really got my attention in my thread when you talked about this ENI.  And seeing the agreements are for 7 years is pretty cool.  It looks like 2021 is the next time there will be a 7 year agreement, so I’m thinking that you think this will be the agreement that begins the 70th week that Daniel 9:27.....am I right? 

Of course, some  say, “this has nothing to do with a false messiah.....he is not holding himself as such” So this interpretation is wanting. 

my response would be, “I didn’t know the peace treaty had to reveal the AC as the Anti Messiah!

Anyhow, I’m watching this closely and reading up on it as we speak. Thanks for the heads up. 

Spock

Edited February 28, 2019 by Spock

[Spock]

On 2/14/2019 at 9:23 AM, iamlamad said:

You are missing the big picture: HOW to dethrone Satan from being the spiritual ruler of this planet. The BOOK in Rev. 5 is God's plan on how to get His planet back from Satan who usurped Adam's place as the leader of this planet. 

This book is God's plan to dethrone Satan and get His planet back. But this book was sealed with 7 seals. Before the book can be opened (to reveal the  trumpet judgments that dethrone Satan) all seven seals must be opened.

Notice that Jesus got the book into His hands the moment He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. He began right then starting the process to dethrone Satan! The first seal is to represent the Gospel sent out. The next three seals represent the devil's attempts to STOP the advance of the gospel. (he failed!). Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. Seal 6 is future: the start of judgment. Seal  is the official start of the 70th week of Daniel. It begins with the trumpet judgments. Finally, at the 7th trumpet, Adam's lease will have ended: 6000 years for man to rule the planet. The next thousand will be ruled by God. Satan is cast down. Jesus gets His planet back. 

However, God has promised 42 months of authority to the Beast. The world seems to want a world without God - so He is going to give them just what they THINK they want.  42 months of hell on earth. 

LA,

As you know I ALMOST adopted this line of thinking 100%, but here is primarily what has held me up:

You show the trumpets pretty much permeating the first half of the week. How is this a time of peace? I mean we just had a peace treaty signed, the temple is going up, sacrifices are resuming, calmness in the Middle East.......but wait.....the TRUMPETS ARE RELEASED AT THIS TIME!  

Hmmmm, so how can you have both Peace and safety and trumpet judgments? I mean. Look at the 5th and 6th trumpets.  Are you sure the trumpets have to be in the first part?  Why can’t they be in the second half AFTER the AOD? 

Thanks,

Spock

spock

[Spock]

On 2/15/2019 at 4:30 PM, iamlamad said:

No, I am NOT "making believe: I KNOW the first 5 seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book into His hands. Why would anyone doubt this?  I go by the CONTEXT: 

What does this scripture really say, if we ignore tradition and just read? It was still while John was
alive (obviously) and it was JOHN caught up to heaven to show him things to come, so we would have
Revelation to read. No one can find 2000 years of church history there! It is only imagined. 

If you read through chapters 4 & 5, they tell us a story, give us timing, and the movement of time.
Notice that this was a vision given around 95 AD, LONG after Jesus ascended, yet Jesus was NOT at the
right hand of the Father, nor anywhere in the throne room. That gives us timing. Then the Holy Spirit (As
the 7 spirits of God) WAS there, which also gives us timing. (Jesus had not yet ascended to send the Holy
Spirit down). Finally, a search was made for one worthy, yet NO MAN was found. All this shows us this was
a vision of the past: a time before Christ rose from the dead. In all of eternity past, present and
future, there was only 32 years when Jesus or "the WORD" was NOT at the right hand of the Father - and
that was during the 32 years He was on earth.

Finally in chapter 5, we see a CHANGE in time. Another search was made for one worth, and this time JESUS
was found! This tells us He had now risen from the dead to become the redeemer of mankind. Then John saw
the moment Jesus arrived into the throne room, right after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not
yet ascended. And the moment He arrived the Holy Spirit was sent down.

All this is giving us the CONTEXT of the seals: Jesus went straight to the Father, got the book, and
began breaking seals. Again, no one can find 2000 years in those verses or between them ever - for that
was not the intent of the Author. All this was to show that the first seal - the CHURCH sent out with the
GOSPEL - was opened around 32 AD. Then the next three seals, revealing the red horse, the black horse and
the pale horse, ride together - to represent Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the church. But God
limited them in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth.

The first HINT we see of a long period of waiting is at the 5th seal. These were the early martyrs. They are wondering when God will bring judgment. They did not know that judgment must wait for the age of grace to end.  They were told there is a number in the mind of God- the total number of church age martyrs. When that final number is reached, THEN judgment will come.  What will cause a certain martyr to be the LAST or final of this number? Of course, the end of the church age or age of grace. When the rapture hits, the very next martyr will be in a different group: a 70th week martyr. Judgment will begin a moment after the rapture with the wrath of God. 

If we study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, we see that Paul tied the Day of the Lord to the rapture. They are back to
back events that cannot be separated. The rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. And
further, Paul shows us that the start of the Day - the worldwide earthquake "sudden destruction" will be
the start of God's wrath. There is only ONE PLACE in Revelation where this scenario fits - and that is
just before the 6th seal that starts the Day of the Lord.

The church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seals almost 2000 years now. But VERY SOON the rapture will come, the age of Grace will be over, and God's wrath will begin with the start of the Day of the Lord.

I will give credit where credit is due: you did a FINE job on the accolades. But it seems you have MISSED the real context of the seals.  It also seems you have missed the intent of the Author in seals 2 through 4. 

When the seals are removed, the Jewish people will be able to 'see' the truth and accept Jesus (7th seal), thus ENDING the Church Age... TRUE  

No, FALSE!  The Jews will not accept Jesus until the SEE the nail prints in His hands. That will not come until chapter 19! They will remain deceived through much of the 70th week. That is just a fact: it is the very reason God must totally destroy their power (think IDF). And the church age ends between the 5th and 6th seal, NOT at the 7th. The 7th seal offically opens the 70th week.  You are close, but close does not count. 

At the 7th seal, the Church Age ends (the rapture all ready happened [6th seal],

Sorry, but this seems silly: the church age will end with the rapture, not some time after the rapture! 

the wedding party in heaven lasts "about half an hour" or 7 days)  Sorry, but this is error. The marriage and supper will come, but NOT HERE: they will come after the entire week has ended: that is why John told about them in chapter 19. The marriage must wait for the Old Testament saints to rise, and they will not rise until the "last day" or the last 24 hours of the 70th week. Just so you know, they will rise at the 7th vial. I suspect the supper may last 30 days. 

the blindness is removed with the sealing of the 144K (JEWS)) Sorry, WRONG! The blindness will have come off of these 144,000, but it will not come off must of the Hebrews until they SEE the nail prints in His hands.  I suspect these 144,000 are born again after they see the effects of the rapture - or after they actually SEE the rapture.  If they were born again before, they would have gone up with the church.

This 7th seal can be either at the start or end of the tribulation without causing any contradiction on the prophecy time line.  No it can't! This is ERROR gone to seed. The 7th seal has to be after the 6th for John numbered them - and it is the final seal sealing the book, so the book is opened as soon as the 7th seal is opened. Rev. 8 begins what is written INSIDE the book: the trumpet judgments. In other words, NO WAY any trumpet can or will be sounded until all 7 seals are opened.  

The first two trumpets represent the Rapture of the dead believers (first) followed by those who are ALIVE or "on the earth".   MORE error gone to seed. The rapture is a blessed event. The trumpets are JUDGMENTS! Do you imagine God is judging the church?  It is FAR MORE likely that the first three trumpet judgments are referring to nuclear warfare. One thing is certain, it is God beginning systematically to destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth, as the Old Testament tells us the Day of the Lord is to accomplish.  A nuke certainly will burn up all the grass over a HUGE area and destroy trees.  Just saying....

Chernobyl translated is "wormwood." I think God has given us a HUGE hint on the 3rd trumpet.  For the rapture, we have 1 Thes 4 & 5, and 1 Cor. 15. 

The fourth trumpet sees 1/3 of the sun, moon, and stars being darkened. The war in heaven causes 1/3 of the angels to be cast out. (The False Prophet)  Just more nonsense!  1/3 cast out of what or where? Where are you getting this? Yes, the lights in the sky dim. Period. Stop adding to scripture!

The start of the final 3.5 year tribulation.   WRONG AGAIN!  Daniel tells us the week will be divided in HALF. You inside there will be only 3.5 years. So what are earth timing is the first trumpets?  Did you not read Jesus that at the abomination (you know, the one that divides the week) THEN is when those in Judea flee? We see that fleeing begin in 12:6, PROVING beyond all doubt that that is the MIDPOINT of the 70th week. Of, for those that imagine only a half of a week left, that, 12:6 is were it begins. Actually, we must accunt for reaction time: they will begin to flee maybe a few seconds AFTER the abomination event. If we back up from 12:6 looking for a real time event, we get to the 7th trumpet. THAT is the exact midpoint of the 70th week. The 7th trumpet will sound when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews. The daily sacrifices will stop. Those in Judea that know, will begin fleeing.

"woe, woe, woe" (the three woes) are the the last three trumpets.  Finally! Hallelujah! Some truth! Good job here!

We know the first two occur in the "twinkling of an eye"  You IMAGINE that because you imagine they are the rapture. You were wrong then, and you are wrong here. Sorry to be so blunt, but it is true.

Of course, the 7th trumpet is the 2nd coming and start of the Millennium.  WRONG AGAIN! You amaze me. Did you just forget that His coming for Armageddon is in chapter 19? You are over 3.5 years off here. Well, I am not surprised, because you are 3.5 years off on the length of this enter time: it is 7 years, not 3.5! Did you ever think about how long Jacob had to work (EXTRA WORK) for the woman he loved? It was 7 years, NOT 3.5! Did you ever heard of "Jacob's trouble?"  

Again, credit where credit is due: you are RIGHT ON that the change of Millenniums is right here at the 7th trumpet. Good job! Few get this part right.

The "bowls" are poured out AFTER Jesus returns.  WRONG AGAIN! You are rearranging the book! STOP IT! You have no right to rearrange Revelation to fit your theory. ANY theory that must rearrange John's God Given chronology will be proven wrong.  Why be wrong when you can be right? Just leave Revelation as written and BELIEVE it! 

For the readers: this is so simple: the bowls are in chapter 16. The 70th week ENDS with the 7th bowl or vial. Jesus does not return until chapter 19, probably 30 days later. The bowls or vials are VERY MUCH a part of the 70th week. 

As usually, it seems we don't agree on much. 

Great great post again LA,

If I knew 100% sure that seal one, the rider on the white horse represents the going forth of the church age AND that the first four horsemen were in fact released when Christ ascended, about 2000 years ago, this would be a done deal. All we would have to be watching for is the 6th seal and POOF, we are gone. 

I know WHITE usually means good, but I suppose it can also mean an imposter for good. 

What I keep pondering is this....the SEALS ARE DIFFERENT....WE SHOULD NOT TAKE THEM TO BE SIMILAR TO THE TRUMPETS AND BOWLS. If I can sort this all out, things could really fall in place for me. I think I need to,quit reading other thoughts and articles and just go back and reflect on what I already have read, taken notes on, and have probably overlooked. 

Always appreciate you brother,

spock

PS. Of course, many believe the Gog War of Ezekiel 38/39 may be next up. 

[Spock]

On 2/17/2019 at 10:33 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

1st point:  >>>What really happens at the seventh trumpet is that Jesus gets His planet back...<<<

As you all know, the Devil took JESUS up into an exceeding high mountain, and showed Him all the KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD, and the glory of them, and said unto Him, "All these things will I give thee, if you will fall down and worship me".  Here the Devil appears as a very good being at the face of JESUS, but JESUS refused the satanic donation of the Devil.  

Now see, to get back His Planet, JESUS and His people need first to put down all rule and all authority and power. Then the END comes, that is, the END comes when be delivered up the Kingdom to God, even to the Father, for he must reign when all enemies be PUT DOWN under His feet, and the last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

The Kingdom of God was first preached to the Jews by John the Baptist. John did say to the Jews: Repent ye or turn from your sins to God: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, it is near. And JESUS left very clear saying: If I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, THEN the KINGDOM of GOD is come unto you. From the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force, but the prophecies explain what really will happen now in the END of the times, as folow:

And the seventh trumpet, that is the seventh voice or seventh message, sounds and is already sounding, saying: "the kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever" (Rev.11:v.15), it means conquering the world, no? Then, let us conquer it as was prophesied many centuries ago, as such as it was showed to Daniel. Understand, O son of man, for the time of the END is the vision. Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the LAST END of the indignation: for at the time appointed the END shall be.

I saw and, behold, one LIKE the Son of man CAME with the clouds of heaven (this MAN LIKE the Son of man is the same who appears in Revelation 1:v.13, and the clouds and the heaven have nothing to do with physical aspects as they are known, in fact the material things are figure of spiritual things), and CAME to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed-Dan.7:13-14.  Revelation 2:v.25-26 : 26 He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the END, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 

2nd point: >>>...Jesus gets His planet back,...<<<

After having showed unto JESUS all the kingdoms of the world, the Devil said to our Master: "All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. Luke 4:v.6. Satan is an usurper, by the way a powerful usurper. 

Now the WAR is against the whole world of Satan with its powerful political and religious structures, and the kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever, it means conquering the world, right? Be sure that the prophecy of the Word will fulfil literally where it says: "The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: He - GOD - uttered His voice, the earth melted. Psalms 46:v.8. Remember, the Word is GOD. 

This time is of War and Judgment. 
The Kingdom of God will be established in the planet Earth since now, from now on, even now in this beginning of this first century of the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day, do you know of this? Then will fulfil His Word that says: Revelation 5:10-12
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and WE shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the THRONE and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 

Speaking of God's THRONE, remember: Psalms 97:v.2-CJB-Complete Jewish Bible - Righteousness and Justice are the foundation of His throne.   

Effects or consequences of the War and Judgment of God, the Almighty
Rev.11:18 - And the nations were very very angry or raged, yeah, and God's wrath will come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that the Lord gives reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should DESTROY them which DESTROY the earth. 

The question to all of you posting on this site is: Whose side will each one of you be in this WAR? On the side of the Lord JESUS and his warrior Michael, or on the side of the nations that are dominated by Satan which will be raged against God's people? I have seen through posts posted here that all of you are merely discussing one against other, so I ask: To what kingdom are you all fighting through bad and useless discussing? If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
 

3rd point:  >>>... and Michael goes after Satan to cast him down.<<<

The father of lies, Satan, will be defeated by the Truth of God. Satan is the great red Dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and his TAIL will draw the third part of the stars of heaven (the third part of the believers or Christians; heaven is not the physical space of Universe, but celestial places in Christ-Ephesians 1:v.3), and did cast them to the earth. 

Rev. 12:v.7 - And there was WAR in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon (the red Dragon having 7 heads, 10 horns and a TAIL); and the Dragon fought and his angels. Paul the Apostle revealed whom are the angels of the Devil.  Check it in 2Cor.12:v.13-15 and also in the seven Letters to the seven Churches of Asia among other biblical sources.

Again: Whose side will you be in this war? On the side of the Lord JESUS and his warrior Michael, or on the side of the nations that are dominated by Satan which will be raged against God's people? To what kingdom are you all fighting through bad and useless discussing? If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

It is written: Revelation 16:v.13-15
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the MOUTH of the Dragon (red Dragon), and out of the MOUTH of the Beast, and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet. (A satanic trinity)
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great Day of God Almighty. (the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium)
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

So be ready you all. 

Greetings brother,

i don’t want to sound rude here but I always ignore your posts because I just can’t read them. Would you please change your font to something easier on the eyes. Thank you.

spock

[Spock]

On 2/15/2019 at 10:03 PM, iamlamad said:

The ONLY problem is, you don't understand the context! I am right IN the context. In Rev. 1 John SAW Jesus - as real as the sun rising on a clear morning.  But in chapter 4, John saw a VISION. Visions can be of any time or past, present and future together - or any combination. This particular vision of the throne room was a vision of the past. BELIEVE It, for it is truth.  Are you really willing to call truth "utter nonsense?"  

IN THE VISION of the past  - back when it really happened - right after Christ rose and ascended and took the scroll - THEN the elders worshiped Him. John is just seeing what happened about 60 years later - in a vision. 

You did read how Jesus suddenly appeared in the throne room where He was NOT a moment before? (Rev. 5) You did read How He sent the Holy Spirit down? These things happened around 32 AD, NOT 95 AD when John saw the vision.  

The search for one worthy to open the seals was probably ONGOING since Adam. It appears that John saw the last search that took place BEFORE He became worthy, then another search took place and in that one Jesus WAS found worthy. Again, these things took place before Jesus rose from the dead - and right after: NOT in 95 AD.

Of course most people just read over these things and then pull the first seal out of its 1st century context. Perhaps you are guilty of this also.

 

 

LA,

Now chapter 4 comes right after chapter 3, right? And in chapters 2 and 3 John was talking about the things THAT ARE, which is the present, right?  Do,we agree so far? 

4:1 says “AFTER THESE THINGS......”.  Is it possible john is moving us from the PRESENT (ch 2-3) to the FUTURE (ch 4-22)?   Therefore, chapters 4 and 5 are really in the future? 

Thanks,

spock

[R. Hartono]

47 minutes ago, Spock said:

If I knew 100% sure that seal one, the rider on the white horse represents the going forth of the church age

Jesus ministry has begun about 50 years before apostle John saw the vision of this horse at Patmos island. Why would God hide His ministry already began with the 1st seal ? Its no secret at all, everybody knew that already.

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

37 minutes ago, Spock said:

4:1 says “AFTER THESE THINGS......”.  Is it possible john is moving us from the PRESENT (ch 2-3) to the FUTURE (ch 4-22)?   Therefore, chapters 4 and 5 are really in the future? 

There you found it.