"Paul's thorn"

[com7fy8]

2 Corinthians 12:7-15 >

I note how Paul says the thorn is a "messenger of Satan" . . . not a message which might be some one problem. But a messenger can be a personal being with powers to mess with Paul in a variety of ways. If the thorn was just some one problem, Paul was ingenious and independent and influential enough to in ego find ways to get around just some one trouble. But an invisible being could test Paul in different ways, and find ways to get to Paul, any time he was doing anything in his own ego. 

Also, he does not say he will glory in his "infirmity", but in his "infirmities". So, one infirmity could have been an eye problem, but not by itself, if there were "infirmities".

And Paul says he begged the Lord "three times" for "this thing" to depart from him. So, I think it was getting to Paul. Even though Paul had such faith to cast out devils, and to heal, how come his faith did not work to get rid of this? 

I think > Jesus was not going to give Paul a miracle of convenience. Paul needed to learn how to always do only what God had him doing in grace. So, that thorn demon was there to mess with whatsoever Paul tried to do in his own ego. The thorn devil had various powers to "buffet" Paul, like how a boxer can test and weaken his opponent by using different jabs and swings and combinations. But, like I mean, the thorn "messenger" could not get to Paul except while Paul did anything in ego; and then . . . only then . . . was when that thorny guy could parry past any of Paul's own defenses and efforts, and pop would go the ego. And the devil's hypodermic thorn could inject Paul with frustration and shame and unforgiveness, as proof of how he was not functioning in submission to God's grace.

If Paul were to submit to God's grace, God's grace almighty would give Paul almighty immunity against any sorts of stress and frustration and anxiety and unforgiveness and shame and blaming and arguing and complaining, plus grace is almighty to have us succeed in doing whatever God really wants. And any problem can come our way, and grace shares with us the creativity of God's own love so we with God can take advantage of however Satan attacks and tests us.

So . . . like with Paul > any time we are doing something and it is messed with and we react negatively, this is proof of how we need, right away, to stop while God corrects us and restores us to intimate sharing with Him in His peace and our Heavenly Father's personal leading in us. While we obey, in any testing > "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:29)

But Paul was not doing things, possibly, with "rest for your souls" while being tested. He was even begging and questioning, I consider. But then he had a little talk with Jesus, and he learned how to live in grace more and more maturely, so he even took "pleasure" in his troubles . . . not only in one infirmity > 2 Corinthians 12:7-15. Only after he had a little talk with Jesus, he got the message of that messing. 

So, God bless you ? and thank you for stopping by ?

Edited February 8, 2019 by com7fy8

[com7fy8]

By the way >

Paul told the Corinthians about the thorn thing . . . after Paul had written two messages, at least, with major correction for the Corinthians. So, I see that Paul was confessing to them, that he also needed great correction. And I would say that thorn thing was used to deal with Paul much more strongly than how Paul had dealt with the Corinthians; so he was sharing this, in order to encourage them to know he was not just about criticizing them. And he was willing to share such a personal thing about himself with them as his family, and with us ? 

But that is not all. If Paul needed to be dealt with in such a manner, they now . . . after his correction by means of letters . . . would also be moving on to more deep and exacting correction, like he went through, and we do. So, having just some one item to deal with could be too easy and not thorough enough! But ones have ways of fearing and avoiding real character correction; but Hebrews 12:4-14 encourages us to actively seek our Heavenly Father for how He alone is able to change us to become like Jesus, and there is all the good we share as we benefit from His correction.

[Who me]

9 hours ago, com7fy8 said:

I think > Jesus was not going to give Paul a miracle of convenience. Paul needed to learn how to always do only what God had him doing in grace.

And how often do we expect just this, a miracle of convenience to make life easier. how wrong the health and wealth teachers are in saying we can name and claim health etc.

Whether we like it or not we are all dependant on Gods gracy and mercy for today and the ability to get through today.

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom,

A fascinating subject. I heard it taught by Chuck Missler that the phrase "thorn in the flesh" was a term meaning like "a pain in the neck", not literally, but some persistent ailment.

I wonder how Paul would have been had he not had this "thorn". Was it for his benefit alone? Maybe it was also for the new believers, so that they wouldn't put him on a pedestal as well. Maybe it was to teach us to keep on keeping on, even if the flesh objects...

Love & Shalom

[com7fy8]

3 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

like "a pain in the neck", not literally, but some persistent ailment.

Ones believe it was an eye problem, because of Galatians 4:15.

Orbital shingles would have been extremely painful. My mother's man friend got that. But he told me he discovered that it could not do anything to him. So . . . he did whatever he jolly well pleased, like he had been doing without the shingles. And the pain did not go away, it seems. In some cases, it does not stop. 

So, one problem might not make a real difference in someone's life. Ones in their own egos can find ways to get around whatever is a trouble for them. And others might even say oh what heroes they are! But stubborn is not the same as grace.

[Wayne222]

Whatever it was it brought him to depeND on Jesus grace. We all go through that too. Our weakness will bring us to depend on christ 

[frienduff thaylorde]

11 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom,

A fascinating subject. I heard it taught by Chuck Missler that the phrase "thorn in the flesh" was a term meaning like "a pain in the neck", not literally, but some persistent ailment.

I wonder how Paul would have been had he not had this "thorn". Was it for his benefit alone? Maybe it was also for the new believers, so that they wouldn't put him on a pedestal as well. Maybe it was to teach us to keep on keeping on, even if the flesh objects...

Love & Shalom

Heres the beauty of it .   it actually says WHY paul was given this thorn .     Due to all the revelations  paul had been given , this THORN would help keep him humble .

Go take a good read on it .    Paul says it with beauty .   

[Michael37]

23 hours ago, com7fy8 said:

So, that thorn demon was there to mess with whatsoever Paul tried to do in his own ego. The thorn devil had various powers to "buffet" Paul, like how a boxer can test and weaken his opponent by using different jabs and swings and combinations. But, like I mean, the thorn "messenger" could not get to Paul except while Paul did anything in ego; and then . . . only then . . . was when that thorny guy could parry past any of Paul's own defenses and efforts, and pop would go the ego. And the devil's hypodermic thorn could inject Paul with frustration and shame and unforgiveness, as proof of how he was not functioning in submission to God's grace.

I like your turn of phrase, com7fy8. Your descriptive terms ,"thorn demon", "thorn devil", "thorn messenger", "thorny guy", and "devils hypodermic thorn" resonate with me. I agree that an ongoing issue is in view here and I have discussed this passage on numerous occasions to that end. The context of the preceding chapters and particularly the list of challenges faced (see below) lead up to Paul's defining statement where he both identifies the demonic source of his persecution and the divine purpose it serves.    

 2Co 11:23-33
(23)  Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
(24)  Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
(25)  Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
(26)  In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
(27)  In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
(28)  Beside those things that are without, that which comes upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
(29)  Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
(30)  If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
(31)  The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knows that I lie not.
(32)  In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
(33)  And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.
 

[Willa]

 Num 33:55  But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then those of them whom you let remain shall be as barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall trouble you in the land where you dwell.

I am sure that this verse also came to Paul's mind.  But I have often also though about angel also meaning messenger, and an angel from satan would be a demon.  The OP certainly gives a lot to think about.

[com7fy8]

14 hours ago, Michael37 said:

The context of the preceding chapters and particularly the list of challenges faced (see below) lead up to Paul's defining statement where he both identifies the demonic source of his persecution and the divine purpose it serves.

What I consider is that Paul had various powers and abilities as an apostle, for managing the church and missionary activities and reaching the lost. So, an invisible being for testing him would have various powers, also, for effecting people and events. But while Paul submitted to God's grace, this grace made Paul strong so wrong spiritual emotions and reacting could not get the better of him, plus he could be creative in this all-loving grace, no matter what the thorn messenger did.