Walk Softly Posted February 18, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 5 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 87 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/01/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Vince said: This is not begging the question. Begging the question (or assuming the conclusion) is when the conclusion is assumed in the premise. A universe that acts in a consistent manner is not assumed it has been observed and verified throughout human history. There is not a good reason to believe that this will change without additional evidence. No scientist is saying that this will be true forever, but they are saying it has been reliable in the past so I have no good reason (until they do) to believe that it will change in the future. Scientists are not assuming the conclusion, they are making a conclusion based on the mountains of evidence that support it. An example of begging the question is "God exists because the bible says he does and the bible is from god." Experience only proves past futures, it can never prove the actual future. This is begging the question because the premise is assuming the future can be predicted. Without uniformity of nature, you cannot do this. Without God, there is no foundation for uniformity in nature. This is literally an example used in Wikipedia's page for "circular reasoning." While you say that there is no good reason to assume it will change, for an unbeliever there is no good reason to assume it won't. With respect to that comment, pay close attention to the quote by Russell at the end of the wiki quote! He was not religious, by the way. However, per David Hume's problem of induction, science cannot be proven inductively by empirical evidence, and thus science cannot be proven scientifically. An appeal to a principle of the uniformity of nature would be required to deductively necessitate the continued accuracy of predictions based on laws that have only succeeded in generalizing past observations. But as Bertrand Russell observed, "The method of 'postulating' what we want has many advantages; they are the same as the advantages of theft over honest toil".[7] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning You see, even those who aren't religious agree with what I'm saying. Inductive Reasoning (appealing to past experience) requires an appeal to uniformity in nature for which the unbeliever has no foundation for. There is no foundation for WHY there is uniformity in nature. We can look at all the evidence in the world, but you can't explain WHY it will be the same tomorrow without assuming that tomorrow will be like the past. This is a fundamental problem. I covered this in detail in my post on page one called "Uniformity in Nature." If you somehow think you've solved Humes inductive problem with an appeal to "evidence"... I'd suggest you submit it for peer review because you'll be famous for solving it so conclusively. Please see the writing I added to my original response to you. Here it is again for your convenience. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/ There are, he says, two possible types of arguments, “demonstrative” and “probable”, but neither will serve. A demonstrative argument produces the wrong kind of conclusion, and a probable argument would be circular. Therefore, for Hume, the problem remains of how to explain why we form any conclusions that go beyond the past instances of which we have had experience (T. 1.3.6.10). Hume stresses that he is not disputing that we do draw such inferences. The challenge, as he sees it, is to understand the “foundation” of the inference—the “logic” or “process of argument” that it is based upon (E. 4.2.21). Hume couldn't account for the why because he didn't have a Christian worldview. I applaud Hume for at least being intellectually honest in his pursuit for truth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walk Softly Posted February 18, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 5 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 87 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/01/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Vince said: I have no proof he exists. Do you? Yes. Proof of God rests in the impossibility of the contrary. The very point of my thread. Welcome in. Edited February 18, 2019 by Walk Softly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walk Softly Posted February 18, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 5 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 87 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/01/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, Vince said: I disagree. But lets say your philosophical exercise proves god existence, how to you get to the god of the bible is the true god. Because this remains true with every worldview that isn't Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walk Softly Posted February 18, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 5 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 87 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/01/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 10 minutes ago, Vince said: I never said anything about proof. I even said this in my post. I said we have enough evidence to believe it will be true going forward but not certain. When we get an example of the laws of gravity not working like they have forever then we will investigate that and see why. Until then it is reasonable to believe the laws of gravity will remain the same until more evidence presents itself to the contrary. We can believe gravity will be the same tomorrow based on evidence without knowing why it will. You don't need a god to have a universe act consistently. As I said, please submit your assertion for peer review. This is the exact problem that Hume put forth with the induction principle. Literally, the exact problem. But you know this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted February 18, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 18, 2019 16 minutes ago, Vince said: That needs to be supported. Do you know every worldview out there? I don't think so. So you are not a believer nor a follower of Jesus ? That explains a lot. There is only one view worth learning. Not many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted February 18, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Vince said: How do you get from that, that I am not a believer? It was not from that that you showed your views/ posts/ were not from those of a believer. It was from your other posts, and also as you said the previous avatar was not true, or implied that and removed it when that was pointed out. As I said before, I though you had posted that you had chosen to believe Jesus. If you did, it does not show in your posts. If you did not, it all makes sense now. If you follow(ed) Jesus, and learn from Him, then you will/ would have only one view (The Father would accomplish this, as you /if you/ trust in Him) , and you would know experientially it was and always is true and right and from God, in line with all of His Word. Edited February 18, 2019 by simplejeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walk Softly Posted February 19, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 5 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 87 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/01/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Vince said: That needs to be supported. Do you know every worldview out there? I don't think so. Every world view I've encountered crumbles under an internal critique. You make it sound like there are so many viable options out there. The vast majority are nothing more than arbitrary claims and there is zero substantiation in that. I stand on the Word of Yahweh as His is the only foundation capable of supporting it's own weight. If Christianity is true, it must, therefore, be the ONLY one that is true. For the Lord is God, and he created the heavens and earth and put everything in place. He made the world to be lived in, not to be a place of empty chaos. “I am the Lord ,” he says, “and there is no other. I publicly proclaim bold promises. I do not whisper obscurities in some dark corner. I would not have told the people of Israel to seek me if I could not be found. I, the Lord , speak only what is true and declare only what is right. Isaiah 45:18-19 For anyone who thinks there is no proof of God, you've never read His Word on the matter and you sow doubt. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Romans 1:20-21 If you think you have a worldview that stands up to the scrutiny, bring it. Edited February 19, 2019 by Walk Softly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted February 19, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Vince said: I think it is funny that Walk Softly has a full throttle proof that the Christian god exists (which he doesn’t) and you make no effort whatsoever to prove god exists. Think about it. The Creator of all the universe, and all life, forever , who fills the universe every bit and more for eternity - no one can even comprehend Him , not even a fraction. No one can even prove to you you are alive. Or what the spirit of a man is when the man is alive in Christ. So how would anyone prove acceptably to you what you cannot see is truth, and more than that, life and death depends on Him ? 2 hours ago, Vince said: If it’s true all REAL christians know the truth then why don’t they all agree or even come close to agreeing. Or are the only real christians the ones that agree with you? Go try and find REAL Christians within 50 miles of your home. Or anywhere in the world. (and PROVE they are true). You will be most blessed if you can find just ten. (Yahweh said He would spare sodom and gomorrah if there were even only ten righteous there. There were not. Perhaps London is next ? Or New York ? or New Orleans ? Or Japan ? Did you even ever say / post / what it is you are seeking in life ? Or why you apparently had a false avatar for so long ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Bought 1953 Posted February 19, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,726 Content Per Day: 2.89 Reputation: 6,258 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 19, 2019 12 minutes ago, Vince said: God knows what evidence would be acceptable to me. Or is he not all knowing? I seek truth. The only way to confirm truth is with evidence. I have been a Christian for 18 years. I changed my avatar because I felt you could not get past it. I have no problem putting it back. May I ask how you would define “ being a Christian”. Thank you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted February 19, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 19, 2019 15 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said: May I ask how you would define “ being a Christian”. Thank you. Good question, at first glance. But really, it doesn't matter what the definition is in this case. It's like epic fail already - New International Version And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. New Living Translation And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him. English Standard Version And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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