enoob57 Posted February 19, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,156 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,444 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 19, 2019 7 hours ago, enoob57 said: The place of hell was created for those who have emptied themselves of rational.... endless loops of nothingness! This was my specific statement with no specifics as to angels or men.... 3 hours ago, Vince said: That is not what the Bible says. Jesus said hell was created for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41). But he has no problem sending people there who are unbelievers. Your comment presupposes what those and themselves meant in my comment 2 hours ago, enoob57 said: you have a unique way of defining those and themselves as to a specific being.... I would say that is going beyond the text of what I wrote. Many perform this kind of error in textual interpretation.... by not defining the specific being I covered all in hell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 19, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,156 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,444 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, Vince said: Then what was your point? You are careless when dealing with written communication.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 19, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,156 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,444 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Just now, Vince said: Thanks. I will take that as constructive criticism. It is … the most important aspect of anything would be proper hermeneutics; for God decided to communicate through written word.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walk Softly Posted February 20, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 5 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 87 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/01/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 20, 2019 27 minutes ago, Abdicate said: @Walk Softly I love your entries!!! You really hit the nail on the head! Thank you!!! People do not want the truth, or they respond like Pilot to Jesus, "What is truth?" like it's an esoteric entity that cannot be obtained. Just like everyone before them who've missed the signs, so will this generation of false believers. It is only the Author that can help one be saved through the truth. In these last days, a great deception is coming, nay, is already here. With the internet, the great exchange of democratized information has propelled the prophecy that knowledge shall increase. Sadly it didn't say wisdom. As such, we are being enveloped into fake information. Thanks to technological and mathematical achievements, machines can create people https://thispersondoesnotexist.com/, fake people to go with fake news and fake information. Only the Author, our Helper, our Comforter can help us, but we have to be willing to shut down the other information mills. God bless you and your abilities! Keep it up. Thank you! I'm so very blessed that my measly attempt to put into words the true Glory of God in all things has inspired others. When we stand on the Ultimate authority of the Bible and put all other assumptions to the test, they reduce to nonsense. Some characters get great joy out of doing what you saw in this thread. The story keeps changing, then the accusations start when each new story is trumped by God's foundation. It almost always goes the same way so it's important to know when to stop. I think they'd go on forever if you let it! I always pray over my posts to be sure that I'm following His lead. But remember, the Lord says that accusations are blessings (Matthew 5:11). ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustPassingThru Posted February 20, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,979 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,112 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Abdicate said: I think you called it presupposition. I've heard some in the church call the results of the global deception, Representative Theory of Perception, which translated for me in lay language, it's, ...ignore known facts and Truth and create your own reality and when faced with irrefutable known facts and/or Truth resort to screaming at the top of your lungs and and calling people names! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walk Softly Posted February 20, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 5 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 87 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/01/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 20, 2019 10 hours ago, TomatoHorse said: @Walk Softly Hello again! You seem to be an intelligent, well-read and thoughtful individual who I would like to interact more with I've been gone for a few days and this thread has moved along quite a ways so I'm not sure if I should continue discussing things with you here, or a different thread, or PMs? Let me know what you'd prefer. In the meantime, I'd like to respond to some of your points in this thread regarding how you as a Christian have an absolute certain source of knowledge and truth that naturalists do not have. You have well thought-out critiques describing potential sources of error in the way we perceive and understand the physical world. But I don’t think that you can escape from them yourself! You claim to have a special avenue of knowledge that lets you rise above the naturalistic ways of knowing the world which you critique. But how do you get this knowledge and truth? Would you say you get it from the Bible? That comes to you through your eyes as you read it, and through your brain as you interpret the meaning of the words. You can’t escape the uncertainty of your brain and your physical senses there. Would you say that you have a mystical, “straight from God” internal source of truth (which I shall refer to as “SGIST” to keep it short ), then I would question these things about it: The source. Your SGIST could be your own feelings. Or it could be another divine / spiritual entity deceiving you. Or perhaps some psychological phenomenon where you experience thoughts or messages as coming from an “other,” even though they originate in one’s own brain. It could be any number of sources other than the Christian God. The accuracy. How do you know that you are receiving and/or interpreting these messages exactly, 100% correctly in your SGIST? In all other forms of communication that we know of there is always a layer (or two, or three...) of a receiving mechanism and/or interpretation where things can go wrong. What evidence do we have that your SGIST is any different? Would you say that you read the Bible, and that God’s Spirit bear witness inside you of the truth you read? That’s really just a combination of the Bible and SGIST, and subject to all of their respective uncertainties. I even suspect that your own critique of solipsism works against you, for similar reasons as I pointed out above regarding the Bible and SGIST. In summary, it seems that the very criticisms you raise against naturalism cut against you like a two-edged sword. I imagine you've thought about these things, and I look forward to hearing your response. Also, I would like to continue interacting with you about logic, morality, etc. But please let me know how you would prefer to do so Great to see you again, @TomatoHorse! I knew that wasn't going to be the last of you. Call it a conviction. Thank you for the kind words. I assure you I'm neither intelligent nor well read! Firstly, I leave how we move forward entirely up to you, my friend. I find that pm is generally easier for genuine conversation because you aren't interrupted by what we saw earlier today when people are just slinging words back and forth. I almost missed your post, as a matter of fact. But, if you wish to keep this a public spectacle, I'm cool with that too. After all, it was me who made the thread in the first place, so I was definitely prepared to defend it. Secondly, after reading your response, I think I need to take a moment and make sure we are on the same page about some stuff. ALL foundational assumptions are circular in nature. I'm under no illusion that mine isn't (it seemed as though that was where you were headed with your questioning, so I want to be clear I'm not hiding from it). It's impossible to avoid. It's just that the Christian worldview (assuming the ultimate authority of the Bible) is the only one which is able to support itself. No other worldview can account for the preconditions of intelligibility. I think this is where Vince and I got sideways. He wanted me to reason to God (evidential approach). I can't do that. The Bible tells me that everyone knows God already. I refuse to place myself as the lawyer presenting evidence while someone else places themselves as the judge, determining whether or not the evidence proves God. Who do we think we are? Everyone knows in their heart of hearts that God exists. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Romans 1:19-21 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. Romans 2:14-15 And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the Lord .’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already,” says the Lord . “And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.” Jeremiah 31:34 Because of this, I cannot reason to God, I can only reason from God. It is only when a Christian stands on the Word of God as the ultimate authority that our ability to know anything is accounted for. No other worldview can do this. No other worldview can account for logic, uniformity in nature or absolute morality (which is why it doesn't eat itself under scrutiny like other worldviews do). It certainly takes faith to stand on the Word of God with the whole world telling you exactly what Vince did... We don't know where those things (preconditions of intelligibility) come from and that's ok. Give us enough time and we'll figure it out! But it's definitely not your Bible! It's called rational faith, not blind faith as some preach you must have to be accepted by God. So, I stand on my presupposition (ultimate authority of the Bible) and I briefly step into the opposing worldview to show that, under scrutiny, it breaks down into absurdity. It is in this that we find the proof of God as it rests in the impossibility of the contrary. But, you must start with God. Dr. Lisle coined this approach the answer, don't answer strategy. It stems from Proverbs 26: 4&5. It's interesting to note that Jesus used this very same strategy when He was confronted with criticism. Quick example (sorry if you aren't interested in this): Then Jesus went over to their synagogue, where he noticed a man with a deformed hand. The Pharisees asked Jesus, “Does the law permit a person to work by healing on the Sabbath?” (They were hoping he would say yes, so they could bring charges against him.) And he answered, “If you had a sheep that fell into a well on the Sabbath, wouldn’t you work to pull it out? Of course you would. And how much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Yes, the law permits a person to do good on the Sabbath.” Matthew 12:9-12 Notice how they accuse Jesus here, then He simply steps into their worldview to show them how nonsensical they were being? It's fascinating to me. This was all kind of a long winded side note to say, yes I realize all worldviews are circular, including the Christian worldview. It's inevitable. I'll work on answering your objections as my time comes available. Take care. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walk Softly Posted February 20, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 5 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 87 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/01/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 20, 2019 55 minutes ago, JustPassingThru said: I've heard some in the church call the results of the global deception, Representative Theory of Perception, which translated for me in lay language, it's, ...ignore known facts and Truth and create your own reality and when faced with irrefutable known facts and/or Truth resort to screaming at the top of your lungs and and calling people names! Sounds a whole lot like Romans Chapter 1 verse 18 through 32! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Called Out One Posted February 20, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 35 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 20, 2019 4 hours ago, Walk Softly said: ... I think this is where Vince and I got sideways. He wanted me to reason to God (evidential approach). I can't do that. The Bible tells me that everyone knows God already. I refuse to place myself as the lawyer presenting evidence while someone else places themselves as the judge, determining whether or not the evidence proves God. Who do we think we are? Everyone knows in their heart of hearts that God exists. *This* is a pure, unadulterated nugget of gold right here. It literally boils down everything the Lord has been teaching you into it's simplest form. Thank you for you faithfulness and steadfastness in what the Lord has called you to do, knowing that you *will* be as strongly opposed and attacked ... exactly as Jesus said we would be. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 20, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,156 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,444 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 20, 2019 14 hours ago, Vince said: Can you support this claim? In the beginning 'GOD' and He has outlined all that is with 66 books in a period of 1400-1600 years and all who come to the examination of find Him to be.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 20, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,156 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,444 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 20, 2019 7 minutes ago, Vince said: What are your reasons for believing that God had something to do with the writings of the Bible? I have studied it's contents for 52 years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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