The Last Trumpet: The Trumpet of God

[Jostler]

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

• But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Matthew 24:13
• And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered.  Joel 2:32

Both are references to the time of Jesus' return.  Both are equally true.

Is it possible we're still tripping over the same mistake most of the Jews made when misunderstanding the purpose of His first advent?  "Overcoming" definitely  MUST include refusing the mark at a time when doing so will cost us our  heads. 

But my questions, is "overcoming" LIMITED to that?  And here's what  I'm alluding to.  There is yet ANOTHER rebellion to come AFTER the  one He defeats at His second coming.  It's at the end of the Millennium and once again in human history, men will have to choose to whom their loyalty will go.  Are those Millennial saints ALSO held responsible for "overcoming" in their day?  To me it's obvious that they  must.  To be deceived into aligning with  the  rebels would be a failure  to overcome just as surely as it  will be in the days of the beast and the  mark.

Our typical lack of including understanding the nature and situation extant in the Millennial Reign as part of our overall picture of His complete plan of restoration leaves us open to the same type of mistakes the  Jews made when trying to understand  Jesus and His mission during the first advent.

They were mistaken in assuming the "messiah" they  were expecting was going to be a conquering King come to restore Israel and Jerusalem to their rightful place as the head of all nations.  That wasn't WRONG....but it was misplaced in time.  They had plenty of prophecy to prove the messiah will do  all that.  But they overlooked....deprioritized the importance of all those prophecies that spoke of a suffering/dying servant.   The idea of a conquering King was just too attractive.   I'll risk the ire of many by saying it's the  same "attractiveness" that inspires such vigorous defense of  the idea  He plans to take us out of here before anything really bad happens.  And it has the same result.  It blinds to the reality of  His real plan...which  is that His own remain engaged with  this earth in that season, partnering with Him as He works through them to wrest the kingdom of darkness out of the hands of satan and his minions. 

i have no clue if that will communicate well or not   But it's a beginning if any can just begin to question how much they really understand about the Millennial Reign, it's purpose in God's larger plan to "restore all things" and just  what the nature and situation of the people who live in that age really  is.

In  light  of that more complete picture a lot  of things begin to become visible, understandable and quite astonishing compared to typical western theological "tradition" (and that's all it is).   We're no  different and just as guilty of His charge against the Scribes and Pharisees of His day.  He accused them of forging "traditions of men" and supplanting the  very Word of God by their traditions. 

I don't have a problem understanding the Bible is speaking to the necessity  of "overcoming" at both  of those times in human history...and in fact throughout ALL of human history. 

Edited April 3, 2019 by Jostler

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Jostler said:

Is it possible we're still tripping over the same mistake most of the Jews made when misunderstanding the purpose of His first advent?  "Overcoming" definitely  MUST include refusing the mark at a time when doing so will cost us our  heads. 

But my questions, is "overcoming" LIMITED to that?  And here's what  I'm alluding to.  There is yet ANOTHER rebellion to come AFTER the  one He defeats at His second coming.  It's at the end of the Millennium and once again in human history, men will have to choose to whom their loyalty will go.  Are those Millennial saints ALSO held responsible for "overcoming" in their day?  To me it's obvious that they  must.  To be deceived into aligning with  the  rebels would be a failure  to overcome just as surely as it  will be in the days of the beast and the  mark.

Our typical lack of including understanding the nature and situation extant in the Millennial Reign as part of our overall picture of His complete plan of restoration leaves us open to the same type of mistakes the  Jews made when trying to understand  Jesus and His mission during the first advent.

They were mistaken in assuming the "messiah" they  were expecting was going to be a conquering King come to restore Israel and Jerusalem to their rightful place as the head of all nations.  That wasn't WRONG....but it was misplaced in time.  They had plenty of prophecy to prove the messiah will do  all that.  But they overlooked....deprioritized the importance of all those prophecies that spoke of a suffering/dying servant.   The idea of a conquering King was just too attractive.   I'll risk the ire of many by saying it's the  same "attractiveness" that inspires such vigorous defense of  the idea  He plans to take us out of here before anything really bad happens.  And it has the same result.  It blinds to the reality of  His real plan...which  is that His own remain engaged with  this earth in that season, partnering with Him as He works through them to wrest the kingdom of darkness out of the hands of satan and his minions. 

i have no clue if that will communicate well or not   But it's a beginning if any can just begin to question how much they really understand about the Millennial Reign, it's purpose in God's larger plan to "restore all things" and just  what the nature and situation of the people who live in that age really  is.

In  light  of that more complete picture a lot  of things begin to become visible, understandable and quite astonishing compared to typical western theological "tradition" (and that's all it is).   We're no  different and just as guilty of His charge against the Scribes and Pharisees of His day.  He accused them of forging "traditions of men" and supplanting the  very Word of God by their traditions. 

I don't have a problem understanding the Bible is speaking to the necessity  of "overcoming" at both  of those times in human history...and in fact throughout ALL of human history. 

It's an interesting endeavor to postulate about the millennial kingdom given the limited amount of information that we have about it.  I think most people's focus is on the events surrounding the return of Christ with the millennial kingdom being more of a side bar topic.  But as you say, it's integral to the restoration of all things.

As with all of the "dispensations" down through time, salvation comes through faith.  It's reasonable to assume that that will continue throughout the time of restoration as well.  Our faith and our actions are inextricably linked.

[Jostler]

1 minute ago, Last Daze said:

It's an interesting endeavor to postulate about the millennial kingdom given the limited amount of information that we have about it.  I think most people's focus is on the events surrounding the return of Christ with the millennial kingdom being more of a side bar topic.  But as you say, it's integral to the restoration of all things.

As with all of the "dispensations" down through time, salvation comes through faith.  It's reasonable to assume that that will continue throughout the time of restoration as well.  Our faith and our actions are inextricably linked.

There's a lot the Bible has to say about  the Millennial Reign.  If  one person is encouraged to get in His presence and ask Him to reveal it and then make the topic a study  priority I think it's a worthwhile thing.  There's a LOT to be understood and goes a lot deeper than guessing/postulating.

It isn't something I could have studied apart from DIRECT guidance as to  which places to go in the  Word.  I'd never have been able to guess if left on my own   And boy does all the "traditional theology" surrounding all the rapture controversies get in the way of even seeing it, much less understanding  it.  He had to purge me of all that before He could even begin showing me the Millennium.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Jostler said:

There's a lot the Bible has to say about  the Millennial Reign.  If  one person is encouraged to get in His presence and ask Him to reveal it and then make the topic a study  priority I think it's a worthwhile thing.  There's a LOT to be understood and goes a lot deeper than guessing/postulating.

It isn't something I could have studied apart from DIRECT guidance as to  which places to go in the  Word.  I'd never have been able to guess if left on my own   And boy does all the "traditional theology" surrounding all the rapture controversies get in the way of even seeing it, much less understanding  it.  He had to purge me of all that before He could even begin showing me the Millennium.

Do you have any writings or papers on the subject that you'd be willing to share?

[Uriah]

On 4/1/2019 at 8:01 PM, iamlamad said:

It is a fact: the dead are not going to be judged at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Those words are prophecy meaning a foretelling of a FUTURE time. 

¹⁸ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

"The time of the dead that they should be judged." Do we see judging taking place at the 7th trumpet? I don't - I only see this prophecy of a future judging. At the the great, white throne judgment (FUTURE to the time of chapter 11 by over a thousands years) do I see judging? Yes. It is a TRUE prophecy. It will happen. 

Do the saints and prophets get rewarded right here at the 7th trumpet? No, it is a prophecy of a FUTURE time. Look in chapter 20 with people seated on thrones: that is part of the reward. Remember the parable of someone getting ten cities to rule over? The point is, it does not happen HERE: that reward will come over 3.5 years into the future from this point. 

Does God destroy the earth at this point? You know the answer is no! This is PROPHECY. 

There are only TWO verbs here that are NOT Aorist tense:

Them that fear thy name is present tense.

Destroy the earth is present tense. The destruction has been ongoing at this time. 

MOST of the verbs John used throughout this book are Aorist tense verbs that show no timing information at all. We have no English verbs like this. We cannot get an accurate English translation. Concerning wrath, all we could translate accurately would be "the nations [were, are or will be] "angry" and thy wrath [was, is or will be]

Usually we can judge timing in Revelation by the first mention. For example, when the two witnesses are first seen, as in 11:3, that is when they SHOW UP from heaven to earth.  (Many think they will be Enoch and Elijah - the two men who never died.  Case in point: "wrath" is first mentioned at the 6th seal, NOT at the 7th trumpet. 

In fact, I kind of agree with you on Noah and Lot: Jesus' emphasis was on the suddeness of their demise. In the case of both Noah and Lot, those people woke up that morning thinking it would be a day like all other of their days: so they were living life to the fullest - right up until the rain started - or the fire started.

Is this not exactly what Paul teaches? That while those in Christ get raptured, those left behind get sudden destruction - all at the very same moment in time.

It will be the same when Jesus comes to Armageddon: they imagine this will just be the normal war: they will wipe Israel off the map. They will be proceeding with their place expecting that day to be just like the day before - But SUDDENLY Jesus comes.

So it is in Rev 15:8-... and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. A clear illustration of the non-linear nature

What is so "non-linear?" It will not take long for all the vials. Perhaps a month or two. So no one can enter the temple in heaven until all seven are complete. Are you reading into that more than what is there? The temple was open before the time for the vials - and it will be open again after the vials. I see no problem with chronology. 

I am so sure of John's chronology I wrote an Axiom:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God Given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.  

Prewrath is such a theory: they require massive rearranging. 

It will be up to non-believers to prove by scripture that revelation MUST be rearranged to fit other end time scriptures.

Hi again iamlamad,

           There is a lot going on in the above quote-going in several directions, it appears. So when I say linear, it is because you are calling for a passing of time between two verses where I conversely see them as two references of one event. For example, when we read of the Euphrates River mentioned twice, or the Sun/darkness mentioned twice or the lightning, thunder and voices 3 times or the mountains and islands of the planet being moved, I contend there multiple descriptions of the same events. That is non linear whereas linear would be insisting they are not the same events. That is why I say the descriptions of the 7th trumpet and the trumpet of 1 Cor 15, Matt 24, and Isaiah 27 are the same trumpet. You don't?

[iamlamad]

25 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Hi again iamlamad,

           There is a lot going on in the above quote-going in several directions, it appears. So when I say linear, it is because you are calling for a passing of time between two verses where I conversely see them as two references of one event. For example, when we read of the Euphrates River mentioned twice, or the Sun/darkness mentioned twice or the lightning, thunder and voices 3 times or the mountains and islands of the planet being moved, I contend there multiple descriptions of the same events. That is non linear whereas linear would be insisting they are not the same events. That is why I say the descriptions of the 7th trumpet and the trumpet of 1 Cor 15, Matt 24, and Isaiah 27 are the same trumpet. You don't?

Let's take the signs in the sun and moon for an example: one such sign is at the 6th seal, found in chapter 6 of Revelation. The other, according to Jesus, will come after "the tribulation" of those days, and just before Christ returns to Armageddon. If John had seen it and written it, it would be found in Rev. 19. However, John did not see it and did not write it. You imagine these two signs are the same. Many others do to. However, if we look at the differences, we can see that they are two different signs. The seals are sealing a book and John gets them opened one by one. Once the seals are all opened, then the trumpets are sounded. No trumpet can be sounded before all 7 seals, because the trumpets are what is INSIDE the book. The book CANNOT be opened to start the trumpets until all 7 seals are opened first. So it is simply impossible that something in the seals is the same event as something after the days of tribulation. (Just so you know, the tribulation, or 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. Jesus returns AFTER the week has finished. There will be events between the end of the week (7th vial) and His coming (Rev. 19). Those events are the events of chapters 17 & 18 and the marriage and supper in chapter 19. The signs Jesus mentioned in Matthew then MUST COME after the week has ended at the 7th vial and before Jesus comes in chapter 19. 

Next, the signs themselves are different: in one the sun is visible but looks black, and the moon appears red: in other words, both are visible. In Jesus' sign, both are darkened, including the stars - meaning total darkness. Two different signs for two different purposes.

In short, there will be over 7 years between these two signs. Next, Joel shows the 6th seal sign in Joel 2, and the sign Jesus mentioned in chapter 3 - two different signs for two different purposes and over 7 years apart.

I am so sure of John's chronology I always write, any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proven wrong. 

 

[iamlamad]

On 4/2/2019 at 6:55 AM, choir loft said:

The trumpet?

You are using an English translation of a Greek text written by a Jew.    Jews don't blow trumpets !!! - on the battlefield or in synagogue !!!!.   More Protestant misunderstanding here.  The amount of Protestant trash that litters their doctrine could fill an ocean.  I'll attempt to clear it up, but I doubt my words will get through their anti-semitic bias.  Here goes anyway......

Jews blow a shofar, a ram's horn, at the beginning of every worship service.  They never blow trumpets.  Trumpets were used by gentiles.  

THE PRIMARY reason for blowing the shofar is a call to worship.

The literal translation of the passage in question refers to blowing the shofar.   It has a distinctive tone, by the way.  If the reader has any interest in the matter go to YouTube and search for shofar.  There are several video clips that will give you an idea what a shofar sounds like and how it's appropriately used.  While you're at it search for shofar sounds in the sky.   Interesting.  Very interesting.

According to Biblical use and Jewish tradition the shofar is also blown as a call to repentance, as during the 10 days of repentance of the High Holy Days between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.   Protestant Christians don't bother with issues surrounding repentance because they are so holy they don't need it.  When was the last time you heard a sermon on repentance in a church?   They are more rare than an Irish four leaf clover on St. Patties' Day.

Finally, the shofar is blown in battle.   Defensively its blown as a warning - as in the approach of an enemy to the gates of the city.  Its also blown as a signal to begin an attack as in the passage of Gideon when he attacked the army of Midian with three hundred men.  The scripture from 1 Thessalonians is meant as all four; preparation, repentance, defensive warning and attack.  Protestant Christians never prepare for anything, never repent of anything, never prepare for defense and always suffer attack because of it.  Only after the fact do they bother to wonder what happened.  Don't believe me?  Ask your minister how many people come to him for advice after they suffer trouble.

Finally, the entire passage from 1 Thessalonians is a preterist heresy or perhaps a simple misconception hardened into a personal dogma by someone with a vivid imagination.  The event described remains in the future of the events of man.  I can say this with all due certainty because of the clue embedded in its words.   There has been NO resurrection of either the just or the sinners as yet!

If the interpretation offered for this scripture is to be valid, then where are all the resurrected souls of the just?   If they are in heaven, then why is there NO evidence of the rapture on earth?   If they are with Jesus now, then something else is at hand.   The "something else" I speak of is a future event - the Second Coming.

Taking snippets of scripture out of context is a common error of those who persevere in justifying the false doctrine of the rapture.  They do it and refuse to admit their logic is misplaced and misused.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft......

 

Leviticus 23:24

Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

 

Another good theory down the drain!

 

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by iamlamad

[Jostler]

12 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Do you have any writings or papers on the subject that you'd be willing to share?

well I could put together some for sure.  I can at least share the Scriptures He's taught me out of so far.  Lots of the information about the  Millennium comes through the  OT prophets.  Isaiah and Ezekiel have a lot to say about it.  Let me dig up and organize some Scriptures.  I think the first thing that happened for me as He began to open this up was just recognizing how little I really did know.  One of the first things I started wrestling with came after the realization that all the eschatology I "knew" pretty much ran out to then end of Revelation 19 and just stopped.  It had to do with these two verses:

Quote

Mat 24:21-22

“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.  And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

There Jesus is speaking (I believe of the Great Tribulation period) and we can draw some inferences from what He  says there.  It sounds like He's painting a rather dire picture of a time so devastating that  if He didn't intervene, not one  single life on earth  would survive.  But obviously He does choose to intervene and some do survive, however small that remnant may turn out to be.

That leaves us to infer that there are some who live, in this fallen flesh, right up to the  time of His return and continue on into the Millennial Reign.  It seems safe to assume these overcoming survivors will be who repopulates the earth after all the destruction of the  Great Tribulation.

Then there's this:

Quote

Rev 20:4

¶

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

At the very same time, the "end of the age" closed out by His arrival on earth, and the  beginning of the Millennial Reign we see this  group too, who were dead, but are now resurrected to "rule and reign" with Him, not forever, but for a specified 1000 year period. 

So, conclusion number one I came to was the  understanding that this is something unique in human history.  And something I've never heard taught anywhere before.  But  the only conclusion I can draw from this is the fact that for the first time since Jesus ascended, there are two  "classes" of human beings living  on  the  earth  at the same time.

One "class" includes people as we are now.  "Sons of Adam"  in that they are still in flesh and blood bodies subject to the fallen nature, death and decay.  But there's also a "class" who are "as He is" raised and now in possession of resurrected bodies.  Perfect and incorruptible.  In this thousand year period these are a "ruling class" who rule and reign with Him, while the ones who remain as we now are go on to repopulate the earth and fill it.

Isaiah and Ezekiel have a lot to say about what life will be like for these and what the earth  will be like during that thousand years.  Thats a hasty effort to lay out a beginning     I hope it made sense so far.   I'll try to gather up a few more specific references from the OT and post them here later.

Just that bit I did open up with those two verses touches on a whole range of things that immediately come into view, like:

"If there's no rapture, then just what is this "gathering"?

Quote

Mat 24:31

“And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There's an answer, but it takes a good bit of drawing in other  references to reveal it.

[Last Daze]

7 hours ago, Jostler said:

Isaiah and Ezekiel have a lot to say about what life will be like for these and what the earth  will be like during that thousand years.  Thats a hasty effort to lay out a beginning     I hope it made sense so far.   I'll try to gather up a few more specific references from the OT and post them here later.

I'm interested in reading your thoughts on the millennium, however, I do think it would be better served as its own topic.

[choir loft]

On 4/2/2019 at 9:19 AM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

What prevails is the Word of God (God is a title, the Word is God), as follow:

1 - And at that time (in this time of the end) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (the voice of Michael will cause this great trouble on the earth), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 - And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 - But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

JESUS said: Mat.24:v.15CJB - 15 “So when you see the abomination that causes devastation spoken about through the prophet Dani’el standing in the Holy Place”[a](let the reader understand the allusion),

Rev. 11:v.15KJV  tell us another message, saying: 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  (What will be the efect of this message around the world of the Devil?)  The verse 18 reveals unto us:   18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.   Here we see also the harvest (the separation) of the wheat from the tares.

Michael, as such as the Lord JESUS, is also a son of man, as such as God called several prophets in the OT. 

And JESUS said:  Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?   Be Michael, be JESUS.

 

Brothers. where is the rumour said by the Lord JESUS?  Mat.25:6 - 6 At midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him.  What time is it on God's watch?

 

There are three that bear record in heaven, God the Father, the Word (the Word made flesh), and the Holy Spirit (who is not a Ghost as is written in English language, but he is a Person), and these three are One.

 

Ghost vs. Spirit  -  The reference may be quite different as you've stated.   English can be a confusing translation of original scripture and the church has often been guilty of deliberately perpetuating the misunderstanding.

RUACH HA-KODESH

Ruach Ha-Kodesh is HOLY SPIRIT in Hebrew.   The actual translation is "spirit holy".  The reference was originally written in Hebrew and passed on to the gentile church which in turn diluted and obfuscated the reference by means of Greek text followed by many strange translations into English.  

Ghost may be a reference to any metaphysical manifestation as you correctly surmise.  Ghosts do not generally exhibit intelligence and are finite in existence. 

Spirit is a reference to a personality of some sort.  

Kodesh is Hebrew for holy.

What's in a name?  A name usually implies a meaning or quality of the person it defines.  Kodesh is also an identifier of God.  It means God is holy - that He lives.

Holy as a word also has several meanings, but the summit of its definition is that God lives - always.   I AM is the name stated to Moses when Moses asked God's name.   God said I AM was His name, meaning that He lives - that He IS the living God.   Knowledge of a living god circulated among the Hebrews of Moses' time.  When God identified Himself He said He was THAT living god.  "I am THAT I am" (Exodus 3:14) - or I am That living god - or I am THAT Kodesh.   More than being alive, it is a quality of being.  God IS life that goes on and on.   Humans, on the other hand, HAVE life - for a limited time.   We are not life itself, though we do enjoy its benefits for a limited time.

Kodesh has many other meanings such as 'sanctify' (different from all creation) or as a proper human name (over 122,000 people in the USA are named kodesh), or as being reserved for some religious ceremony.   In terms of language Kodesh is also a modifier, which enhances or explains the word its associated with - as in Ruach or spirit. 

Ruach can also be translated from Hebrew as "breath" as in the breath of life.  All living things breath.  When breathing ceases, life ends.  Therefore the association between spirit and life has significant meaning to all who enjoy life.

Ruach Ha-Kodesh therefore suggests that the spirit of God is life itself - not an impersonal finite glob of metaphysical goo descriptive of temporary manifestations and cheap tricks.

As for Three In One, the best definition and clearest statement of the triune nature of god is contained in the oldest recorded prayer - the Jewish shema.  It's only six words and clear as a bell unless one deliberately misinterprets it.   Jews have misunderstood their own prayer for thousands of years.  Apparently the church isn't the only group guilty of deliberate misinterpretation of an ancient term.  

We are, after all, only human.

Hope this adds to your knowledge.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Edited April 4, 2019 by choir loft