The Last Trumpet: The Trumpet of God

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Uriah said:

John 6:40 & 44- And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Yeah, I pretty much was thinking of this time, can you show me the other days? Perhaps more trumpets etc. More announcements by the arch angel? My theory on the witnesses is that God has mot made it known to us. They are not said to be given new bodies at the point when life enters them again. This was true with all others raised to life previously. Being part of the resurrection means one must die, of course as they all did. All but these two are assumed to have died again. I think you are asking for answers that you don't have. Will they have new bodies like all who ARE called out of the graves?? I can assume so but when? Not shown in scripture, unless you know where. I don't think they will have to wait for 1,000 yrs. either. To sum it up, it is God who does things and He is not bound to go by our assumptions. He can operate outside of the things that are  clearly laid out if He so pleases.

Deu 29:29- The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Ps 131:1- LORD, my heart is not proud;
my eyes are not haughty.
I don’t concern myself with matters too great
or too awesome for me to grasp.

I am convinced (because of Paul's writing) that in John 6, Jesus was talking to Jews about THEIR resurrection. At this time God was going to "wait and see" if Israel would accept Him after His death and resurrection - whether or not He would turn to the Gentiles at that time.  In other words, the church of which we are a part did not exist at that time.  I see the Old Testament saints rise at the world's worst earthquake - at the 7th vial. Imagine God bringing together the particles of those bodies of saints before the flood. Those particles could be thousands of miles from the burial site. When God pulls those bodies back together it is going to cause one awesome earthquake - and we see such an earthquake at the 7th vial.  

At this time the church will have been raised for over 7 years. The two witnesses? Yes, if you study chapters 11 -13 and study the 5 mentions of the last half of the week - given in days, in months and in years  - you will discover that ALL 5 are countdowns for the last half of the week - the 1260 days of the Two witnesses included. It appears at first reading that they are killed before the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint - but that is not the intent of the Author. 

11:1-2:  the man of sin enters Jerusalem, bringing his Gentile (Muslim?) armies with him. They will trample the city 42 months

11:3: The two witnesses show up, just 3.5 days before the 7th trumpet sounds and marks the midpoint. They will testify for 1260 days.

11:4-13: Written as a parenthesis (NOT IN CHRONOLOGY) where John takes the reader down the last half of the week with the two witnesses only - a SIDE journey not in John's chronology. Their 1260 days of testifying will take them to just 3.5 days before the end of the week, marked by the 7th vial. They will be killed and lay dead those 3.5 days. Then the 7th vial will be poured out, and ALL the Old Testament saints will rise - including the two witnesses: Enoch and Elijah - the two men who have never yet died. They are Old Testament saints and will rise with the rest of their fellow saints. 

11:14-15: The 7th trumpet sounds, marking the midpoint. The 6000 years lease given to Adam will have expired and suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to earth. He looses and Jesus gains the kingdoms of the world. Michael goes after Satan to cast him down.  This trumpet will sound in heaven marking the moment the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple and declare he is God - stopping the daily sacrifices (the temple will then be polluted) and dividing the week into two halves. 

12:6: those in Judea begin to flee, having seen the abomination Jesus spoke of.

12:14: the woman (those who fled) will be supernaturally protected for 3.5 years. 

13:5: The Beast (probably the man of sin now possessed by Satan) is given 42 months of authority.

This is John's Chronology. Each mention of the 3.5 year period of time is for the last half of the week. Each verse of mention is the START of a countdown to the end of the week. NONE of these countdowns begins and ends in the verse of mention. Each will be parallel paths to the end through chapters 14, 15, and 16. Most of the countdowns will end at or very near the 7th vial that ends the week. Only the 42 months of authority will extend past that, because the beast will not be taken until Jesus returns some unknown time after the end of the week.  It may be on the 1290th day.

If people do not recognize or understand 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis, their theory of the week will be messed up. The truth is, John was very careful with his chronology. 

New bodies? No, God puts their OLD bodies back together - then changes it into a resurrection body.

Edited April 7, 2019 by iamlamad

[Uriah]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am convinced (because of Paul's writing) that in John 6, Jesus was talking to Jews about THEIR resurrection. At this time God was going to "wait and see" if Israel would accept Him after His death and resurrection - whether or not He would turn to the Gentiles at that time.  In other words, the church of which we are a part did not exist at that time.  I see the Old Testament saints rise at the world's worst earthquake - at the 7th vial. Imagine God bringing together the particles of those bodies of saints before the flood. Those particles could be thousands of miles from the burial site. When God pulls those bodies back together it is going to cause one awesome earthquake - and we see such an earthquake at the 7th vial.  

At this time the church will have been raised for over 7 years. The two witnesses? Yes, if you study chapters 11 -13 and study the 5 mentions of the last half of the week - given in days, in months and in years  - you will discover that ALL 5 are countdowns for the last half of the week - the 1260 days of the Two witnesses included. It appears at first reading that they are killed before the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint - but that is not the intent of the Author. 

11:1-2:  the man of sin enters Jerusalem, bringing his Gentile (Muslim?) armies with him. They will trample the city 42 months

11:3: The two witnesses show up, just 3.5 days before the 7th trumpet sounds and marks the midpoint. They will testify for 1260 days.

11:4-13: Written as a parenthesis (NOT IN CHRONOLOGY) where John takes the reader down the last half of the week with the two witnesses only - a SIDE journey not in John's chronology. Their 1260 days of testifying will take them to just 3.5 days before the end of the week, marked by the 7th vial. They will be killed and lay dead those 3.5 days. Then the 7th vial will be poured out, and ALL the Old Testament saints will rise - including the two witnesses: Enoch and Elijah - the two men who have never yet died. They are Old Testament saints and will rise with the rest of their fellow saints. 

11:14-15: The 7th trumpet sounds, marking the midpoint. The 6000 years lease given to Adam will have expired and suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to earth. He looses and Jesus gains the kingdoms of the world. Michael goes after Satan to cast him down.  This trumpet will sound in heaven marking the moment the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple and declare he is God - stopping the daily sacrifices (the temple will then be polluted) and dividing the week into two halves. 

12:6: those in Judea begin to flee, having seen the abomination Jesus spoke of.

12:14: the woman (those who fled) will be supernaturally protected for 3.5 years. 

13:5: The Beast (probably the man of sin now possessed by Satan) is given 42 months of authority.

This is John's Chronology. Each mention of the 3.5 year period of time is for the last half of the week. Each verse of mention is the START of a countdown to the end of the week. NONE of these countdowns begins and ends in the verse of mention. Each will be parallel paths to the end through chapters 14, 15, and 16. Most of the countdowns will end at or very near the 7th vial that ends the week. Only the 42 months of authority will extend past that, because the beast will not be taken until Jesus returns some unknown time after the end of the week.  It may be on the 1290th day.

If people do not recognize or understand 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis, their theory of the week will be messed up. The truth is, John was very careful with his chronology. 

New bodies? No, God puts their OLD bodies back together - then changes it into a resurrection body.

Wow, you have put a great deal of thought into this!

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

Wow, you have put a great deal of thought into this!

Mostly I just spent hundreds of hours meditating on these scriptures - waiting for God to reveal.  I'm really slow: when He has revealed things, it took me FAR too long to get it!

[seeking the lost]

On 4/6/2019 at 4:42 PM, iamlamad said:

Christ as the firstfruits.

The church as second, third, fourth etc fruits - as the second wave: a crowd too large to number

The 144,000 as the next wave, probably around the midpoint of the week.

The Old Testament saints along with those beheaded and the two witnesses as the next wave - at or near the 7th vial. 

Revelation 20: 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

This is the text that defines the first resurrection.  There are not multiple entries for this resurrection.  The time is at the beginning of the millennium, very specific.  This resurrection is not spread out over time.  Those who are raised are clearly identified to the exclusion of all those not mentioned.  The purpose of this resurrection is for those raised to reign with Christ during the millennium. They are not going up they are just raised to reign.

The next entry will be everyone else that is not mentioned as being raised at the first resurrection.  I say this because the Bible says the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.  This is the second resurrection with a clearly defined time and those who participate.

[iamlamad]

On 4/10/2019 at 9:11 PM, seeking the lost said:

Revelation 20: 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

This is the text that defines the first resurrection.  There are not multiple entries for this resurrection.  The time is at the beginning of the millennium, very specific.  This resurrection is not spread out over time.  Those who are raised are clearly identified to the exclusion of all those not mentioned.  The purpose of this resurrection is for those raised to reign with Christ during the millennium. They are not going up they are just raised to reign.

The next entry will be everyone else that is not mentioned as being raised at the first resurrection.  I say this because the Bible says the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.  This is the second resurrection with a clearly defined time and those who participate.

You are imagining that because John wrote it here in chapter 20, then here in chapter 20 is where it must happen. Those seated on thrones are the raptured church plus the raptured Old Testament saints. But John does not even hint as to WHEN they actually rose. What he is telling us is that these three groups (add the beheaded) were all a part of the first resurrection. We have to go elsewhere in scripture to find out WHEN they rose. 

We must form doctrine from the entirety of end times scripture, not one isolated text. Some people imagine that the Old Testament saints - ALL of them - were raised when Jesus rose (Matthew 27). They are mistaken. Others think the Old Testament saints rise with the church. They too are mistaken. The rapture is limited to those who lived IN CHRIST. No Old Testament saints could, because Christ had not yet come. Most people forget about the 144,000. They were seen IN HEAVEN in chapter 14, shortly after the midpoint of the week. Then there are some, like you, that imagine all of these groups are resurrected at the same time - in the timing of chapter 20, which would be after the week has finished and after Jesus has returned. This is also a mistaken theory. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by iamlamad

[seeking the lost]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are imagining that because John wrote it here in chapter 12, then here in chapter 12 is where it must happen. Those seated on thrones are the raptured church plus the raptured Old Testament saints. But John does not even hint as to WHEN they actually rose. What he is telling us is that these three groups (add the beheaded) were all a part of the first resurrection. We have to go elsewhere in scripture to find out WHEN they rose. 

We must form doctrine from the entirety of end times scripture, not one isolated text. Some people imagine that the Old Testament saints - ALL of them - were raised when Jesus rose (Matthew 27). They are mistaken. Others think the Old Testament saints rise with the church. They too are mistaken. The rapture is limited to those who lived IN CHRIST. No Old Testament saints could, because Christ had not yet come. Most people forget about the 144,000. They were seen IN HEAVEN in chapter 14, shortly after the midpoint of the week. Then there are some, like you, that imagine all of these groups are resurrected at the same time - in the timing of chapter 20, which would be after the week has finished and after Jesus has returned. This is also a mistaken theory. 

If you are in Christ at this point in history we can look into heaven and see you there.  The proof text is in Ephesians 2: 

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

You see iamlamad if you are in Christ you are now seated in the heavenly place with Him.  What does this mean are you raptured or perhaps you died. What?  When did the resurrection happen to help you get there?  Is is actually you there or is it just an image? 

I know everyone else but you is wrong or mistaken.

Jesus spoke of when the believers would be raised and it has nothing to do with your timeline.  The words of Jesus in John 6 are very clear.  

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice in verse 39 and again in verse 40 the believers are raised on the last day.  That last day is a specific day and not a series of days as you suppose.  The visions of heaven have confused you.  The last day is the time that the last trumpet sounds after which there are no more days and no more trumpets.

[iamlamad]

7 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

If you are in Christ at this point in history we can look into heaven and see you there.  The proof text is in Ephesians 2: 

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

You see iamlamad if you are in Christ you are now seated in the heavenly place with Him.  What does this mean are you raptured or perhaps you died. What?  When did the resurrection happen to help you get there?  Is is actually you there or is it just an image? 

I know everyone else but you is wrong or mistaken.

Jesus spoke of when the believers would be raised and it has nothing to do with your timeline.  The words of Jesus in John 6 are very clear.  

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice in verse 39 and again in verse 40 the believers are raised on the last day.  That last day is a specific day and not a series of days as you suppose.  The visions of heaven have confused you.  The last day is the time that the last trumpet sounds after which there are no more days and no more trumpets.

Sorry, I meant chapter 20, not chapter 12. 

Yes, I will agree we have been raised to sit together in heavenly places in Christ.  But we both know our bodies are here on earth. This is speaking of AUTHORITY - not physical reality!  We WILL get to heaven physically, but not until the rapture. And by that time, that is chapter 20, the church will have been in heaven for some time, and then returned to earth to sit on thrones.  John saw the church in heaven in Rev. 7, before the 70th week begins. Therefore the resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place before the week even begins, proving that the first resurrection saints will come in waves separated by TIME.

The words of Jesus in John 6 are very clear.  Certainly they are, but to WHOM are they directed?  You cannot take verses directed at Jews and imagine they are for the church, or vice versa.  Jesus was talking to Jews before the Gentile church of today began - even before the Jewish church began!  The truth is, the words of Paul as the when the rapture comes is clear, and is proven by John seeing the church in heaven.  

This "last day" could refer to the Day of the Lord - an extended period of time - or the last 24 hour day before the week ends. I suspect it is the latter. 

You err yet again! The 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT of the week, not the last day. 

Axiom on Revelation: 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit, is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong. Sorry, but the moment you attempt to move the 7th trumpet from chapter 11 to chapter 16, I know your theory is wrong.  You cannot move seals, you cannot move trumpets, and you cannot move vials. 

My question is, WHY TRY? Throw your theory out and form a new one leaving Revelation exactly as written. You cannot improve on perfection. 

Finally, I am not the one confused.  I don't ever attempt to rearrange Revelation.

[seeking the lost]

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, I meant chapter 20, not chapter 12. 

Yes, I will agree we have been raised to sit together in heavenly places in Christ.  But we both know our bodies are here on earth. This is speaking of AUTHORITY - not physical reality!  We WILL get to heaven physically, but not until the rapture. And by that time, that is chapter 20, the church will have been in heaven for some time, and then returned to earth to sit on thrones.  John saw the church in heaven in Rev. 7, before the 70th week begins. Therefore the resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place before the week even begins, proving that the first resurrection saints will come in waves separated by TIME.

The words of Jesus in John 6 are very clear.  Certainly they are, but to WHOM are they directed?  You cannot take verses directed at Jews and imagine they are for the church, or vice versa.  Jesus was talking to Jews before the Gentile church of today began - even before the Jewish church began!  The truth is, the words of Paul as the when the rapture comes is clear, and is proven by John seeing the church in heaven.  

This "last day" could refer to the Day of the Lord - an extended period of time - or the last 24 hour day before the week ends. I suspect it is the latter. 

You err yet again! The 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT of the week, not the last day. 

Axiom on Revelation: 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit, is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong. Sorry, but the moment you attempt to move the 7th trumpet from chapter 11 to chapter 16, I know your theory is wrong.  You cannot move seals, you cannot move trumpets, and you cannot move vials. 

My question is, WHY TRY? Throw your theory out and form a new one leaving Revelation exactly as written. You cannot improve on perfection. 

Finally, I am not the one confused.  I don't ever attempt to rearrange Revelation.

John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Jesus says this of all that the Father gives Him no just the Jews.  Would you suggest that Jesus is the bread of life only for the Jews because He said it to the Jews?  With the exception of the tribulation martyrs the dead will be raise at the last day.  That last day resurrection is at the end of the thousand years.  The Last day is different from last days, do you want to change words to fit your doctrine?

John saw these in a vision which is very instructive but not in the way that you suppose.  Look at the question and answer in the context of Rev. 7.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This number that you seem to indicate were raptured before the tribulation are in fact those that have come out of the great tribulation.  There is a vast difference between raptured before and they have come out of the great tribulation.

The subject of this thread is about the last trumpet.  I have stated that the last trumpet is on the last day.  I say that because that is when Jesus said that believers would be raised.  I said noting about the seventh trumpet.  That is just the last of a series but it is not the last trumpet because there is not a resurrection at the seventh trumpet.  I am not trying to move anything.  I am trying to tell you that the resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14 -17 is the resurrection spoken of in Rev. 20 as the rest of the dead lived not until the end of the thousand years.  This is a resurrection of sheep and goats.  The books are opened and judgement is rendered.  At the time of this resurrection when the dead in Christ rise is the time of the rapture.  This is without moving anything or adding stuff to support a made up doctrine.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Jesus says this of all that the Father gives Him no just the Jews.  Would you suggest that Jesus is the bread of life only for the Jews because He said it to the Jews?  With the exception of the tribulation martyrs the dead will be raise at the last day.  That last day resurrection is at the end of the thousand years.  The Last day is different from last days, do you want to change words to fit your doctrine?

John saw these in a vision which is very instructive but not in the way that you suppose.  Look at the question and answer in the context of Rev. 7.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This number that you seem to indicate were raptured before the tribulation are in fact those that have come out of the great tribulation.  There is a vast difference between raptured before and they have come out of the great tribulation.

The subject of this thread is about the last trumpet.  I have stated that the last trumpet is on the last day.  I say that because that is when Jesus said that believers would be raised.  I said noting about the seventh trumpet.  That is just the last of a series but it is not the last trumpet because there is not a resurrection at the seventh trumpet.  I am not trying to move anything.  I am trying to tell you that the resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14 -17 is the resurrection spoken of in Rev. 20 as the rest of the dead lived not until the end of the thousand years.  This is a resurrection of sheep and goats.  The books are opened and judgement is rendered.  At the time of this resurrection when the dead in Christ rise is the time of the rapture.  This is without moving anything or adding stuff to support a made up doctrine.

I would only suggest that doctrine must take in ALL scripture, not just chosen verses.  For example, what are you going to do with 1 Thes. 4 & 5 that show the rapture of the Gentile church of today coming only one moment before the wrath of God begins?  Then God's wrath begins, according to John, at the 6th seal. Those scriptures together put the rapture before the 70th week begins. That is why untold millions believe in a pretrib rapture.  Then, add to that - John SAW the raptured church already in the throne room of heaven in the next chapter in Revelation - the great crowd too large to number. Then add to the the other scriptures that show us God is not going to have His church here during the days of His wrath.  It all spells "pretrib."

Therefore, since the Gentile church of today did not even exist when Jesus made those comments, I MUST conclude that His comments on "the last day" are not referencing the Gentile church of today. 

More proof: in Rev. 14 the 144,000 are seen in heaven. How did they get there? John does not tell us. I can only conclude they too were raptured - somewhere around the midpoint of the week. 

Now, concerning the days of great tribulation (GT) that Jesus spoke of - WHERE are those days in Revelation? Did you notice that the beheaded don't even begin to show up until chapter 15?  Those days of GT that Jesus spoke of will not begin until after the warning not to take the mark in chapter 14. Why then would John show us people coming OUT of GT years before he STARTS the days of GT that Jesus spoke of?  The truth is, he did not. In chapter 7, before the 70th week begins, John was not taking about the days of GT that Jesus was talking about. Did you notice that those two words "GT" was NOT ENOUGH for Jesus: He had to add that the days He was talking about would be WORSE than any other time ever on earth.  But John just used those two words - GT. Did you also notice that John used those two words together in his chapter on the letters to the churches? It was directed to a church and to people existing at that time - around 95 AD! John CERTAINLY was not intended that God would keep the people in that Jewish church alive for 2000 years so they could face the days of GT that Jesus spoke of! No, the truth is, there has been, was in John's time, and will be again, days of GT that are in the church age. When martyrs are being killed, it is certainly GT for them! How could it get any greater? They cannot be killed twice!

All John is telling us in chapter 7 is that at the time of the rapture, there will be days of GT - meaning, saints will be martyred around the planet.  John was not in any way making reference to the days of GT that Jesus spoke of.  Beside, although the number of beheaded will seem great - perhaps more than the 6 million killed in the holocaust - it will CERTAINLY not be a crowd too large to number. Consider, we have had close to 50 generations since Jesus ascended. The last few generations of believers could be many hundreds of millions of believers. When all these generations of believers who have passed rise up, and then the generation that is alive in in Christ added - it will be a crowd too large to number - not for God, of course - but for John.  It is going to be a crowd of many billions.  The number of martyrs of the days of GT that Jesus spoke of will be very small in comparison.  It will probably be small in comparison to those martyrs of the church age under the altar at the 5th seal. 

In other words, make no mistake here: that great crowd, too large to number is OF COURSE the raptured church. The timing fits what Paul wrote, and the size of the crowd leaves no doubt: it must be the just raptured church - raptured just before God's wrath begins at the 6th seal. 

That last day resurrection is at the end of the thousand years.  Not sure what you are getting at: "last day" vs "last days."  I will agree, there will be a resurrection after the 1000 years, but that will be the resurrection of the damned. The resurrection Jesus spoke of at the last day will most certainly be the last 24 hour period of the 70th week of Daniel that finishes out the time of the Jews and Hebrews.  The 7th vial will be poured out to end the 70th week and end the last day. And that is when God will raise up the Old Testament saints - including those before the flood.  God forming those bodies again as they were before they died - will cause a HUGE earthquake - the worst ever earthquake - exactly like we see at the 7th vial. The particles (Atoms or quarks) that used to make up the bodies of those before the flood could be separated by thousands of miles  - in all directions but up. The earth will quake violently when God raised them up. 

I am trying to tell you that the resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14 -17 is the resurrection spoken of in Rev. 20 as the rest of the dead lived not until the end of the thousand years.  Sorry. I hear SO MANY try to make the 7th trumpet the last trumpet, I suspected that was your meaning.  Indeed, I AGREE with this. It is the resurrection for the just. Our difference is, you are trying to force TIMING on that resurrection, when there is none. It is written in chapter 20, but it does not all happen in the timing of chapter 20 - that is  - after the 70th week has finished.  

Did you catch that?  "the last day" has to have a reference, such as the last day of the feast, or the last day of the age. Most bible students agree it is the last day of the age - being the last 24 hour day of the 70th week of Daniel. The angel told Daniel that 70 weeks (of years) were destined for Daniel's people - all the descendants of Jacob. 

Does that mean time ceases to exist after the 70th week? No, it only means one "age" ends and another begins. One dispensation ends and another begins. Here it will be the age of man ruling earth ends and the age of God ruling the earth as King begins. 

In other words, that famous "last day" comes and goes, but days continue on. It was only a "last day" of one age or dispensation. That last day ends at the 7th vial. The 70th week of Daniel is OVER at that time. But notice, Jesus has not returned! No, the events written in chapters 17 and 18 take place AFTER the week has ended and BEFORE Christ returns. The events of chapter 19 take place also - the marriage and supper - before Christ returns. But finally, in the last part of chapter 19, Jesus descends to the Battle of Armageddon - WITH His saints. They were in heaven for the marriage and supper. In the first verses of chapter 19 all those that will participate in the marriage are already there - in heaven.

HOW did they get there? WHEN did they get there? The answer is, different groups got there at different times. And ALL are there before Jesus descends. The truth of scripture here totally destroys a posttrib rapture, if people are honest with scripture. 

At the time of this resurrection when the dead in Christ rise is the time of the rapture.  This is without moving anything or adding stuff to support a made up doctrine.  I beg to differ: you are thinking that all involved in that resurrection are resurrected at one time - and at the timing of chapter 20. You are mistaken. John writes of it in chapter 20, but really gives NO TIMING for it. The truth is, JESUS resurrection was a part of that "first resurrection." Remember, His was the "FIRST-fruits." Does that not hint strongly that there will be more to follow? Therefore I disagree with you.

[seeking the lost]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

For example, what are you going to do with 1 Thes. 4 & 5 that show the rapture of the Gentile church of today coming only one moment before the wrath of God begins?  Then God's wrath begins, according to John, at the 6th seal. Those scriptures together put the rapture before the 70th week begins. That is why untold millions believe in a pretrib rapture.  Then, add to that - John SAW the raptured church already in the throne room of heaven in the next chapter in Revelation - the great crowd too large to number. Then add to the the other scriptures that show us God is not going to have His church here during the days of His wrath.  It all spells "pretrib."

Greetings iamlamad

The text in 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5 have nothing to do with the tribulation.  They have nothing to do with the church escaping tribulation.  I know that yo can not see anything else but it is simply not there and not connected in any way.  The teaching of Jesus and the prayer of Jesus are contrary to what you are suggesting.  Jesus taught that the wheat and the tares are to grow together until the time of the harvest.  At the time of the harvest the tares are taken out first.  They are gathered and burned then the wheat is gathered in.  Your rapture theory has it all backward from that.  According to your theory the wheat is gathered up and then the tares are dealt with.  That is backward and not according to scripture. This is the teaching from Matthew 13: 

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The prayer of Jesus is from John 17: 13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them,for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

The answer to this prayer is very clear in the text of Revelation.  In the text that we have batted around Revelation 7 there is a clear marking of those who believe as the wrath of God is about to be unleashed.

7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

The seal of God is the keeping/protection during this time.  If the church is in heaven there is no need to mark them to protect them from that which is about to come upon the whole earth.

Revelation 9: another mention of those that have the mark/seal of God that are protected.

9 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 

The wheat is still standing in the field as the tares are being gathered to be burned.

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

More proof: in Rev. 14 the 144,000 are seen in heaven. How did they get there? John does not tell us. I can only conclude they too were raptured - somewhere around the midpoint of the week. 

They came out of the great tribulation.  The text in Revelation 7 where these are mentioned explains this.

Rev. 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
    and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
    will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
    never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
    nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
    will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
    ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[c]”

You do know that there will be tribulation martyrs.  The church is protected from the wrath of God but not from the rage of satan.  

Revelation 12:10-12 King James Version (KJV)

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

They overcame not loving their lives unto death.  

Now concerning the resurrection and the judgement.  Jesus teaches in Matthew 25 concerning the gathering and the judgement.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Notice there is no separate time for the righteous and the wicked.  Both are there together.  There is the separation of the sheep and the goats.  To the sheep He says come inherit... to the goats He says depart.  This is the view of the resurrection at the end of the thousand years when the books are opened. 

Revelation 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is the rest of the dead which is including everyone from Adam to the last people remaining upon the earth.  sheep, those written in the book of life.  Goats those who do not have their name in the book of life.  Big time separation.