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The Last Trumpet: The Trumpet of God


Last Daze

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On 2/11/2019 at 11:35 AM, Last Daze said:

I think we can all agree that those who are Christ's are made immortal at the last trumpet, which is identified as the trumpet of God.  Where we diverge is in identifying what the trumpet of God is, and when it is that the last one sounds.  If we use scripture to interpret scripture, it should become clear that the trumpet of God is a term used to describe His voice of authority.

Notice in 1 Corinthians 15:52, Paul calls it the "last trumpet".  By your explanation that would mean the last voice of authority of God, which cannot be true at all.  I lean more toward the other explanations, as it being either the last trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets, placing the timeline sometime between mid September to beginning of October of the year it is to happen ... of at the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15.

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On 3/31/2019 at 9:15 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise FIRST. 

The trumpet must sound first and trumpet means message, right? And the message for the present time is of the harvest, in other words the harvest means the "rapture", the separation, evidently, which is the separation of the wheat from the chaff, as JESUS said: "Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to BURN  them: but gather the wheat into my barn".

Brothers,  which will be the voice or the message of the archangel and who is him? What is his name? Brothers, we must know from whom the Word of God is speaking (God is a title, the Word is God). By the way, the own Scriptures show us all these things. 

The voice of archangel, huh, Who is him? Now, now, he is Michael, evidently. What is his message? What is his voice for us all hear?  The prophet Daniel reveals unto us clearly about this.  The wise prophet revealed what will happen in this end of time through the voice of the archangel Michael, believe in the message of Daniel my brothers:   He said: Daniel 12:1-4:
1 - And at that time (in this time of the end) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (the voice of Michael will cause this great trouble on the earth), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 - And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 - But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

JESUS said: Mat.24:v.15CJB - 15 “So when you see the abomination that causes devastation spoken about through the prophet Dani’el standing in the Holy Place”[a](let the reader understand the allusion),

Rev. 11:v.15KJV  tell us another message, saying: 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  (What will be the efect of this message around the world of the Devil?)  The verse 18 reveals unto us:   18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.   Here we see also the harvest (the separation) of the wheat from the tares.

Michael, as such as the Lord JESUS, is also a son of man, as such as God called several prophets in the OT. 

And JESUS said:  Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?   Be Michael, be JESUS.

 

Brothers. where is the rumour said by the Lord JESUS?  Mat.25:6 - 6 At midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him.  What time is it on God's watch?

The trumpet?

You are using an English translation of a Greek text written by a Jew.    Jews don't blow trumpets !!! - on the battlefield or in synagogue !!!!.   More Protestant misunderstanding here.  The amount of Protestant trash that litters their doctrine could fill an ocean.  I'll attempt to clear it up, but I doubt my words will get through their anti-semitic bias.  Here goes anyway......

Jews blow a shofar, a ram's horn, at the beginning of every worship service.  They never blow trumpets.  Trumpets were used by gentiles.  

THE PRIMARY reason for blowing the shofar is a call to worship.

The literal translation of the passage in question refers to blowing the shofar.   It has a distinctive tone, by the way.  If the reader has any interest in the matter go to YouTube and search for shofar.  There are several video clips that will give you an idea what a shofar sounds like and how it's appropriately used.  While you're at it search for shofar sounds in the sky.   Interesting.  Very interesting.

According to Biblical use and Jewish tradition the shofar is also blown as a call to repentance, as during the 10 days of repentance of the High Holy Days between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.   Protestant Christians don't bother with issues surrounding repentance because they are so holy they don't need it.  When was the last time you heard a sermon on repentance in a church?   They are more rare than an Irish four leaf clover on St. Patties' Day.

Finally, the shofar is blown in battle.   Defensively its blown as a warning - as in the approach of an enemy to the gates of the city.  Its also blown as a signal to begin an attack as in the passage of Gideon when he attacked the army of Midian with three hundred men.  The scripture from 1 Thessalonians is meant as all four; preparation, repentance, defensive warning and attack.  Protestant Christians never prepare for anything, never repent of anything, never prepare for defense and always suffer attack because of it.  Only after the fact do they bother to wonder what happened.  Don't believe me?  Ask your minister how many people come to him for advice after they suffer trouble.

Finally, the entire passage from 1 Thessalonians is a preterist heresy or perhaps a simple misconception hardened into a personal dogma by someone with a vivid imagination.  The event described remains in the future of the events of man.  I can say this with all due certainty because of the clue embedded in its words.   There has been NO resurrection of either the just or the sinners as yet!

If the interpretation offered for this scripture is to be valid, then where are all the resurrected souls of the just?   If they are in heaven, then why is there NO evidence of the rapture on earth?   If they are with Jesus now, then something else is at hand.   The "something else" I speak of is a future event - the Second Coming.

Taking snippets of scripture out of context is a common error of those who persevere in justifying the false doctrine of the rapture.  They do it and refuse to admit their logic is misplaced and misused.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft......

 

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10 hours ago, OneLight said:

Notice in 1 Corinthians 15:52, Paul calls it the "last trumpet".  By your explanation that would mean the last voice of authority of God, which cannot be true at all.

For your consideration, and also from 1 Corinthians 15:

  • For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.  The last enemy that will be abolished is death.  For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.  When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.  1 Corinthians 15:25-28

It's no coincidence that the above passage is in the same context as the last trumpet.  The last enemy to be abolished is death.  That enemy is abolished through the last trumpet which causes the putting on of immortality.  The voice of God's resurrection authority will abolish death.  There will be an immortal resurrection when Jesus returns, and one after the millennial kingdom.

The last verse of the above passage indicated that when death (the last enemy) is abolished, all things will be subjected to God.  There will no longer be the need for Him to "pull rank" and exercise authority.  His authority will be unchallenged and embraced by all and the time of restoration will be completed.

The last trumpet is the voice of His immortal resurrection authority that will abolish the last enemy, death.

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2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

For your consideration, and also from 1 Corinthians 15:

  • For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.  The last enemy that will be abolished is death.  For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.  When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.  1 Corinthians 15:25-28

It's no coincidence that the above passage is in the same context as the last trumpet.  The last enemy to be abolished is death.  That enemy is abolished through the last trumpet which causes the putting on of immortality.  The voice of God's resurrection authority will abolish death.  There will be an immortal resurrection when Jesus returns, and one after the millennial kingdom.

The last verse of the above passage indicated that when death (the last enemy) is abolished, all things will be subjected to God.  There will no longer be the need for Him to "pull rank" and exercise authority.  His authority will be unchallenged and embraced by all and the time of restoration will be completed.

The last trumpet is the voice of His immortal resurrection authority that will abolish the last enemy, death.

Following your train of thought, then the rapture cannot occur until God creates a new heaven and a new earth and the New Jerusalem is seen coming down to earth, for that is at the end of the millennium when Jesus finally judges all and sends death and Hades into the lake of fire.  That is when death will be abolished.  Is this what you believe?

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On 2/11/2019 at 8:35 AM, Last Daze said:

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Matthew 24:13

I agree with you in most of the points you made.  The last trump is the last trump...the same as the trump of God... but I just wanted to point this out, "He who endures to the end, he will be saved."  doesn't this also include NOT TAKING THE MOB? 

Edited by ForHisGlory37
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On 4/1/2019 at 8:01 PM, iamlamad said:

It is a fact: the dead are not going to be judged at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Those words are prophecy meaning a foretelling of a FUTURE time. 

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

"The time of the dead that they should be judged." Do we see judging taking place at the 7th trumpet? I don't - I only see this prophecy of a future judging. At the the great, white throne judgment (FUTURE to the time of chapter 11 by over a thousands years) do I see judging? Yes. It is a TRUE prophecy. It will happen. 

Do the saints and prophets get rewarded right here at the 7th trumpet? No, it is a prophecy of a FUTURE time. Look in chapter 20 with people seated on thrones: that is part of the reward. Remember the parable of someone getting ten cities to rule over? The point is, it does not happen HERE: that reward will come over 3.5 years into the future from this point. 

Does God destroy the earth at this point? You know the answer is no! This is PROPHECY. 

There are only TWO verbs here that are NOT Aorist tense:

Them that fear thy name is present tense.

Destroy the earth is present tense. The destruction has been ongoing at this time. 

MOST of the verbs John used throughout this book are Aorist tense verbs that show no timing information at all. We have no English verbs like this. We cannot get an accurate English translation. Concerning wrath, all we could translate accurately would be "the nations [were, are or will be] "angry" and thy wrath [was, is or will be]

Usually we can judge timing in Revelation by the first mention. For example, when the two witnesses are first seen, as in 11:3, that is when they SHOW UP from heaven to earth.  (Many think they will be Enoch and Elijah - the two men who never died.  Case in point: "wrath" is first mentioned at the 6th seal, NOT at the 7th trumpet. 

In fact, I kind of agree with you on Noah and Lot: Jesus' emphasis was on the suddeness of their demise. In the case of both Noah and Lot, those people woke up that morning thinking it would be a day like all other of their days: so they were living life to the fullest - right up until the rain started - or the fire started.

Is this not exactly what Paul teaches? That while those in Christ get raptured, those left behind get sudden destruction - all at the very same moment in time.

It will be the same when Jesus comes to Armageddon: they imagine this will just be the normal war: they will wipe Israel off the map. They will be proceeding with their place expecting that day to be just like the day before - But SUDDENLY Jesus comes.

So it is in Rev 15:8-... and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. A clear illustration of the non-linear nature

What is so "non-linear?" It will not take long for all the vials. Perhaps a month or two. So no one can enter the temple in heaven until all seven are complete. Are you reading into that more than what is there? The temple was open before the time for the vials - and it will be open again after the vials. I see no problem with chronology. 

I am so sure of John's chronology I wrote an Axiom:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God Given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.  

Prewrath is such a theory: they require massive rearranging. 

It will be up to non-believers to prove by scripture that revelation MUST be rearranged to fit other end time scriptures.

Will hopefully get back to this tomorrow

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21 hours ago, OneLight said:

Following your train of thought, then the rapture cannot occur until God creates a new heaven and a new earth and the New Jerusalem is seen coming down to earth, for that is at the end of the millennium when Jesus finally judges all and sends death and Hades into the lake of fire.  That is when death will be abolished.  Is this what you believe?

Not exactly.  Immortal resurrection occurs in stages as delineated by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:

  • For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  1 Corinthians 15:22-24
  1. Christ the first fruits - The immortal resurrection of Jesus occurred in the first century three days after His death on the cross.  I personally believe that this includes the saints of the old covenant as mentioned in Matthew 27:52-53 as first fruits.  This is the first occurrence.
  2. Those who are Christ's at His coming - This is the second time that the voice of God's authority over death will be heard by those who are in the tombs.  This happens when Jesus returns to set up the kingdom of God on earth as depicted in Daniel 2.
  3. Then the end - This is the third and final time that immortal resurrection occurs.  It takes place after the 1000 year reign of Christ.  It consists of everyone who was not made immortal in either of the first two resurrections.  It is comprised of both good and evil people.

The last trumpet, the trumpet of God, is His authority over death.  This is manifested through immortal resurrection.  There are three distinct instances of such.  The more I reflect on the term "the last trumpet", the more I see it as a reference to purpose and not so much as a reference to timing.

  • Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.  John 5:28-29

His voice (trumpet) of immortal authority will be heard two more times.

 

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14 hours ago, ForHisGlory37 said:

I agree with you in most of the points you made.  The last trump is the last trump...the same as the trump of God... but I just wanted to point this out, "He who endures to the end, he will be saved."  doesn't this also include NOT TAKING THE MOB? 

  • But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Matthew 24:13
  • And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered.  Joel 2:32

Both are references to the time of Jesus' return.  Both are equally true.

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On 4/2/2019 at 7:55 AM, choir loft said:

The trumpet?

You are using an English translation of a Greek text written by a Jew.    Jews don't blow trumpets !!! - on the battlefield or in synagogue !!!!.   More Protestant misunderstanding here.  The amount of Protestant trash that litters their doctrine could fill an ocean.  I'll attempt to clear it up, but I doubt my words will get through their anti-semitic bias.  Here goes anyway......

Jews blow a shofar, a ram's horn, at the beginning of every worship service.  They never blow trumpets.  Trumpets were used by gentiles.  

THE PRIMARY reason for blowing the shofar is a call to worship.

The literal translation of the passage in question refers to blowing the shofar.   It has a distinctive tone, by the way.  If the reader has any interest in the matter go to YouTube and search for shofar.  There are several video clips that will give you an idea what a shofar sounds like and how it's appropriately used.  While you're at it search for shofar sounds in the sky.   Interesting.  Very interesting.

According to Biblical use and Jewish tradition the shofar is also blown as a call to repentance, as during the 10 days of repentance of the High Holy Days between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.   Protestant Christians don't bother with issues surrounding repentance because they are so holy they don't need it.  When was the last time you heard a sermon on repentance in a church?   They are more rare than an Irish four leaf clover on St. Patties' Day.

Finally, the shofar is blown in battle.   Defensively its blown as a warning - as in the approach of an enemy to the gates of the city.  Its also blown as a signal to begin an attack as in the passage of Gideon when he attacked the army of Midian with three hundred men.  The scripture from 1 Thessalonians is meant as all four; preparation, repentance, defensive warning and attack.  Protestant Christians never prepare for anything, never repent of anything, never prepare for defense and always suffer attack because of it.  Only after the fact do they bother to wonder what happened.  Don't believe me?  Ask your minister how many people come to him for advice after they suffer trouble.

Finally, the entire passage from 1 Thessalonians is a preterist heresy or perhaps a simple misconception hardened into a personal dogma by someone with a vivid imagination.  The event described remains in the future of the events of man.  I can say this with all due certainty because of the clue embedded in its words.   There has been NO resurrection of either the just or the sinners as yet!

If the interpretation offered for this scripture is to be valid, then where are all the resurrected souls of the just?   If they are in heaven, then why is there NO evidence of the rapture on earth?   If they are with Jesus now, then something else is at hand.   The "something else" I speak of is a future event - the Second Coming.

Taking snippets of scripture out of context is a common error of those who persevere in justifying the false doctrine of the rapture.  They do it and refuse to admit their logic is misplaced and misused.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft......

 

4

Yes, the Jews blow Shofars at prescribed times and when instructed to do so like at the battle of Jericho. 

But they also had silver trumpets or metal trumpets. This was blown at any time for leaving camp or for a meeting. A specific call for the elders of the tribes, one trumpet or a call from two trumpets for the whole camp to meet. The shofar was always designated for a set time but the silver trumpet could be blown at any time. It would also seem they were used for a call to battle.

The LORD spoke further to Moses, saying, "Make yourself two trumpets of silver, of hammered work you shall make them; and you shall use them for summoning the congregation and for having the camps set out.  Numbers 10: 1,2  Verses 1 thru 10 describe the use of these trumpets.

Edited by Zemke
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6 hours ago, Last Daze said:
  • But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Matthew 24:13
  • And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered.  Joel 2:32

Both are references to the time of Jesus' return.  Both are equally true.

You yourself say that he who endures to the end will be saved, but if you take the MOB, that is NOT enduring to the end.  LOST FOREVER, NO REPENTANCE.

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