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The Last Trumpet: The Trumpet of God


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33 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Right: ONE (1) rapture of the church. But the Old Testament saints must be resurrected some time, and they are NOT "in Christ." There's must be another time. OF COURSE there will be multiple. AGain you are placing TIMING on "first" resurrection. It is NOT first as in chronology but first in HONOR. It is for the righteous. (it will also be first in time, but the timing is NOT just one moment in time. Again, which do you choose of the two for Jesus' resurrection? His MUST be included in one or the other, since there are only two. Which will you choose for the 144,000 that are seen the second time in heaven? Which will you choose for the Old Testament saints?  You only imagine it is unscriptural. Agreed, the resurrection of the Old Covenant saints is not written plainly in black and white, but several times Jesus said He would raise them up "on the last day." That would be at the time of the 7th vial that ends the week.

 

OF COURSE we are "groups." The church is not the 144,000, in spite of what the JW tell us. Neither are any of the OT saints "in Christ."  All this is just common sense and logic.  

AS for the temple: do you imagine the river of life is INSIDE the temple? 

Hi again iamlamad

See Heb 11:40 again. O.T. saints CANNOT be resurrected except at the SAME TIME as us!

The river of Life proceeds from God's throne-wherever His throne is you will find it.

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35 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Yet John wrote that there are ONLY TWO, and he wrote that under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - meaning, with Jesus' approval.  Therefore Jesus own resurrection MUST come under one or the other in Revelation.  Did you not also read that He was the "firstfruits?" If there is a first, then there MUST BE a second. OF COURSE He was part of that "first" resurrection John wrote of.  It is included in the word, "first-fruits."

No problem, the scripture (approved by Jesus says, "THIS is the first resurrection..." I'll stick with that. This is why various scholars call it the first general resurrection. Because people try to make many others count as the first etc.

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On 4/4/2019 at 11:16 AM, iamlamad said:

Look, CL, if you wish to be left behind, that is between you and God. The pretrib rapture is truth, and very real, and could happen tonight.  Perhaps you should take a look at this verse:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Question: do you want Christ to appear to YOU at the same time He is appearing to the rest of the church? He is only going to appear to those that are LOOKING FOR HIM. Everything a believer gets from heaven or from God comes by FAITH. Since you have ZERO faith in His coming FOR the church, don't even think you will be caught up.  It is a heavenly principle:

But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Don't even THINK you will be caught up with the rest of the church that is EXPECTING Him.

Since it looks like you will be left behind, I have a suggestion: just turn yourself in right away - tell them you are a believer - and you will lose your head and become one of those listed in the first verses of Rev. 13.

Or maybe you are a Jew and don't believe Jesus is the Messiah. If so, the result will be the same: you will be left behind. 

 

Rapture fans equate the Second Coming of Christ with their fantasy evacuation.  

Biblical context doesn't substantiate the assumption at all.   Contextual proofs don't hold water with them, however.  Of all those who study the Bible their method is among the most restricted and illogical, ideologically speaking.   They refuse to employ standard methods of scriptural interpretation and substitute their own dogmatic ideas.  In other words, they presume the doctrine and then use scripture to support it INSTEAD of plumbing the depths of scripture to find contextual evidence for the rapture (which doesn't exist).

Jesus WILL return.  All three of the world's major religions expect His arrival.  

The problem with Rapture fans is that they think He'll come two, three or four times.  Rapture fans can't agree how many times He will reappear or even when it will happen.  Why?  Because they base their time line on an assumption of troubled times they call the tribulation as well as pseudo-English translations of other languages which inevitably lead them astray.

iamlamad is guilty of blaspheme because he presumes to judge another with divine authority.   Is this person the judge of all mankind and able to determine who will or will not be left behind - during an imaginary rapture?  Why do rapture fans have to commit SIN in order to justify their ridiculous ideology?  Has it come to this?   Is the only way to defend the rapture lie now degraded into hellish insults?

The church isn't EXPECTING a rapture, folks.   The church is expecting the Second Coming, not a cowardly evacuation from earth's troubles.  The rapture is an American invention.  Most of Christendom, including the Roman Catholic church and the Orthodox churches as well as Judaism reject it.   

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15

Jesus, a person of some authority, prayed that the rapture wouldn't happen, that His disciples would NOT be taken off planet before the appropriate time.  Which part of NOT do rapture fans NOT understand?  The inevitable retort will be that this passage is taken out of context, even as rapture fans rely upon a half dozen or so verses they themselves take out of context to justify their lie.

Jesus has promise to be with us in times of trouble.   So bring on the tribulation because He is with me throughout.  If I die in the midst of it I will be with God.  If I continue through it, I will know His faithfulness in keeping me always.  The context of the entire Bible promises not an escape from trouble, but that God will be with us in times of trouble.  It is through trouble that our faith is identified.  Rapture fans resort to demonic devices to rob Christians of this courageous hope.  

Rapture fans are cowards inasmuch as they want to escape trouble - vertically.   GOD HATES A COWARD. (Revelation 21:8)

Rapture fans are anti-semitic bigots in that they deny "the ride" to Jews and any church not representative of the American Protestant heresy of the rapture.

So I remain on earth today surrounded by members of a yellow spineless bigoted church who can't study the Word of God to determine truth.  Instead they must SIN and blaspheme the authority of God to condemn someone who disagrees with them.   Is this Christian or is this opinionated rubbish?  When did an honest search for Biblical truth become a reason for accusation?

When did the church lose its nerve?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

Edited by choir loft
scripture reference added
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2 hours ago, choir loft said:

Rapture fans equate the Second Coming of Christ with their fantasy evacuation.  

Biblical context doesn't substantiate the assumption at all.   Contextual proofs don't hold water with them, however.  Of all those who study the Bible their method is among the most restricted and illogical, ideologically speaking.   They refuse to employ standard methods of scriptural interpretation and substitute their own dogmatic ideas.  In other words, they presume the doctrine and then use scripture to support it INSTEAD of plumbing the depths of scripture to find contextual evidence for the rapture (which doesn't exist).

Jesus WILL return.  All three of the world's major religions expect His arrival.  

The problem with Rapture fans is that they think He'll come two, three or four times.  Rapture fans can't agree how many times He will reappear or even when it will happen.  Why?  Because they base their time line on an assumption of troubled times they call the tribulation as well as pseudo-English translations of other languages which inevitably lead them astray.

iamlamad is guilty of blaspheme because he presumes to judge another with divine authority.   Is this person the judge of all mankind and able to determine who will or will not be left behind - during an imaginary rapture?  Why do rapture fans have to commit SIN in order to justify their ridiculous ideology?  Has it come to this?   Is the only way to defend the rapture lie now degraded into hellish insults?

The church isn't EXPECTING a rapture, folks.   The church is expecting the Second Coming, not a cowardly evacuation from earth's troubles.  The rapture is an American invention.  Most of Christendom, including the Roman Catholic church and the Orthodox churches as well as Judaism reject it.   

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15

Jesus, a person of some authority, prayed that the rapture wouldn't happen, that His disciples would NOT be taken off planet before the appropriate time.  Which part of NOT do rapture fans NOT understand?  The inevitable retort will be that this passage is taken out of context, even as rapture fans rely upon a half dozen or so verses they themselves take out of context to justify their lie.

Jesus has promise to be with us in times of trouble.   So bring on the tribulation because He is with me throughout.  If I die in the midst of it I will be with God.  If I continue through it, I will know His faithfulness in keeping me always.  The context of the entire Bible promises not an escape from trouble, but that God will be with us in times of trouble.  It is through trouble that our faith is identified.  Rapture fans resort to demonic devices to rob Christians of this courageous hope.  

Rapture fans are cowards inasmuch as they want to escape trouble - vertically.   GOD HATES A COWARD. (Revelation 21:8)

Rapture fans are anti-semitic bigots in that they deny "the ride" to Jews and any church not representative of the American Protestant heresy of the rapture.

So I remain on earth today surrounded by members of a yellow spineless bigoted church who can't study the Word of God to determine truth.  Instead they must SIN and blaspheme the authority of God to condemn someone who disagrees with them.   Is this Christian or is this opinionated rubbish?  When did an honest search for Biblical truth become a reason for accusation?

When did the church lose its nerve?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

11

So does getting involved with messianic Judaism in Florida bring out the crushing debate tactic monster in us all? Are there Thursday night practice sessions and slam the Gentile motivational courses? Can I holler from the back row? Heights make me angrier and it's tempting to throw things from up in the loft.

that's me learning to holler from the back row.....hey this is fun.............. care to appologize for the silver trumpetrs or are you just going to ignore that bit of ignorance on your part?

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6 hours ago, choir loft said:

Rapture fans equate the Second Coming of Christ with their fantasy evacuation.  

Biblical context doesn't substantiate the assumption at all.   Contextual proofs don't hold water with them, however.  Of all those who study the Bible their method is among the most restricted and illogical, ideologically speaking.   They refuse to employ standard methods of scriptural interpretation and substitute their own dogmatic ideas.  In other words, they presume the doctrine and then use scripture to support it INSTEAD of plumbing the depths of scripture to find contextual evidence for the rapture (which doesn't exist).

Jesus WILL return.  All three of the world's major religions expect His arrival.  

The problem with Rapture fans is that they think He'll come two, three or four times.  Rapture fans can't agree how many times He will reappear or even when it will happen.  Why?  Because they base their time line on an assumption of troubled times they call the tribulation as well as pseudo-English translations of other languages which inevitably lead them astray.

iamlamad is guilty of blaspheme because he presumes to judge another with divine authority.   Is this person the judge of all mankind and able to determine who will or will not be left behind - during an imaginary rapture?  Why do rapture fans have to commit SIN in order to justify their ridiculous ideology?  Has it come to this?   Is the only way to defend the rapture lie now degraded into hellish insults?

The church isn't EXPECTING a rapture, folks.   The church is expecting the Second Coming, not a cowardly evacuation from earth's troubles.  The rapture is an American invention.  Most of Christendom, including the Roman Catholic church and the Orthodox churches as well as Judaism reject it.   

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15

Jesus, a person of some authority, prayed that the rapture wouldn't happen, that His disciples would NOT be taken off planet before the appropriate time.  Which part of NOT do rapture fans NOT understand?  The inevitable retort will be that this passage is taken out of context, even as rapture fans rely upon a half dozen or so verses they themselves take out of context to justify their lie.

Jesus has promise to be with us in times of trouble.   So bring on the tribulation because He is with me throughout.  If I die in the midst of it I will be with God.  If I continue through it, I will know His faithfulness in keeping me always.  The context of the entire Bible promises not an escape from trouble, but that God will be with us in times of trouble.  It is through trouble that our faith is identified.  Rapture fans resort to demonic devices to rob Christians of this courageous hope.  

Rapture fans are cowards inasmuch as they want to escape trouble - vertically.   GOD HATES A COWARD. (Revelation 21:8)

Rapture fans are anti-semitic bigots in that they deny "the ride" to Jews and any church not representative of the American Protestant heresy of the rapture.

So I remain on earth today surrounded by members of a yellow spineless bigoted church who can't study the Word of God to determine truth.  Instead they must SIN and blaspheme the authority of God to condemn someone who disagrees with them.   Is this Christian or is this opinionated rubbish?  When did an honest search for Biblical truth become a reason for accusation?

When did the church lose its nerve?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

All I did was quote scripture. I let the scripture do the talking and convicting. 

Let's see if we can count:  He came once. That would be ONE (1) time. When He comes this next time, that would be two (2) comings. Yep! I guess that would be His second coming. I certainly believe that for His second coming, He is coming pretrib FOR His saints.  It is His "escape" plan. While those left behind get "sudden destruction," those that are alive and in Christ get caught up and so escape the sudden destruction.  Now, if you wish be remain behind, the first thing you will face is the sudden destruction wrath meant ONLY for those who reject Christ.  It's up to you. 

I don't know why you insist I am wrong: I have 1 thes. 4 & 5 on my side. I have Rev. 7 on my side: John got to see the great crowd, too large to number, in heaven, around the throne, before he ever started the 70th week. Just to assist you here - that means PRETRIB. "The trib" means, for most of the church, the 70th week. It's right there in black and white: the church IN HEAVEN before the 70th week begins. And that matched what Paul taught to a "T." His rapture comes just before wrath - and God's wrath begins at the 6th seal. The rapture then will come just before the 6th seal.  Your entire second paragraph is nothing but filler: claptrap, drivel. It is only lambasting what you don't understand. 

to find contextual evidence for the rapture (which doesn't exist).  You should have written,  to find contextual evidence for the rapture (which I cannot find). IT is right there in black and white. But it does take some little amount of understanding. 

I would guess, even though you are sure you are right, that you cannot pinpoint the start of the 70th week in Revelation. I will further guess, since you can't, how in the world can you know the rapture is not pretrib?  I will further guess you cannot find where the real rapture is in Revelation either. I do hope you prove me wrong with scripture rightly divided and understood. 

The problem with Rapture fans is that they think He'll come two, three or four times.  He is GOD! He can do what He wants. But the fact is, Scripture tells us of TWO MORE comings.  His coming as seen in Rev. 19 will be His THIRD coming. For His second coming, it should be understood that He does NOT touch down, but remains in a cloud, then takes His church back to heaven. Of course, the trouble with posttribbers is they MISS one coming entirely. 

 Rapture fans can't agree how many times He will reappear or even when it will happen.   This may be true: It is because many pretribbers, just like posttribbers, are not good students of the bible.  The truth is, He is coming next FOR His saints, and again over 7 years later WITH His saints. This much is a given, proven by scripture. Posttrib fans can't explain how they will get to the marriage and supper in heaven. 

iamlamad is guilty of blaspheme because he presumes to judge another with divine authority  No, I just quote scripture and let it do its work.   It is the scripture that tells us He is only going to appear to those who are LOOKING For Him.  I did not write that, Paul or another writer did. 

If I were you, I would be VERY careful what you say about scripture. AFter all, it IS HIS WORD. 

The church isn't EXPECTING a rapture, folks.   You said this wrong: the church, for the most part, IS expecting the rapture; after all it is scripture. Jesus will certainly come for us, and the church will be caught up. (for the readers, that is the meaning of "rapture:" to be caught up. OF COURSE it is scriptural.  It appears it is only you and a few that believe like you that are NOT expecting Him. If I were you, I would camp out on that verse in Hebrews 9 again: verse 28. It seems you just don't believe it. (For the readers: someone said on a forum that the rapture was only believed by the church in the US. So I sent letters online (Interpals) to 50 people I found in Africa. MOST of them believe in the rapture. Their reason? "It's in the bible."

not a cowardly evacuation from earth's troubles.  Readers, Who are you going to believe? This writer that simply does not know the truth, or Luke who Did know the truth, and wrote in chapter 21: 

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

HOW will we escape?

1 Thes. 4:

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This writer expects he will comfort others by telling them they must go through God's wrath!  Pretribbers comfort others by telling them that God has made an escape plan!

For the readers: if you had a choice, would you choose an escape plan created by God just for you - or would you ignore God's escape plan and do you own thing? 

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one."  This is for the church age, NOT for the days of GT. Here is a verse specifically for the days of GT: Rev. 13:

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Make no mistake, for any believers left behind, THEY WILL BE OVERCOME. It is God's word.  The truth is, God's plan is that people that His escape and wait out these days in heaven. For the readers: will you fill follow God's plan, or be a "maverick?"

Jesus, a person of some authority, prayed that the rapture wouldn't happen, that His disciples would NOT be taken off planet before the appropriate time.

This writing does not recognize the " appropriate time." This is shocking because Paul TELLS Us the time: it is just before God's wrath is poured out. THAT is the appropriate time. And John then saw the church in heaven AT that appropriate time.

Jesus has promise to be with us in times of trouble.   This is truth for the church age. But during the 70th week Jesus has promised the saints WILL BE OVERCOME. Readers, it is a choice: take God's escape or be overcome. It is as simple as that. 

For the readers, the rest of this post is just someone in choir loft hollering drivel - knocking what he does not understand. 

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10 hours ago, Uriah said:

No problem, the scripture (approved by Jesus says, "THIS is the first resurrection..." I'll stick with that. This is why various scholars call it the first general resurrection. Because people try to make many others count as the first etc.

You will get no argument from me here: it is certain the most honorable (Strong's Greek 4413: First, before, principal, most important. Contracted superlative of pro; foremost) resurrection, or the CHIEF of all resurrections. It is for ALL the righteous. 

 

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10 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi again iamlamad

See Heb 11:40 again. O.T. saints CANNOT be resurrected except at the SAME TIME as us!

The river of Life proceeds from God's throne-wherever His throne is you will find it.

since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. NIV

Yes, we will all be together at the marriage and supper. But we certainly will not rise up together. You are in error once again.

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7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. NIV

Yes, we will all be together at the marriage and supper. But we certainly will not rise up together. You are in error once again.

Hi iamlamad

                    NLT Heb 11:40- For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us.

So here is yet another translation. I think you and I will continue to disagree on these things. I read it as people being resurrected at the same time, you read it as them reaching that state at varying times.- Your choice.

Also, one last comment on Rev 20:5- But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Here is the outline of its usage: (G4413)

first in time or place

in any succession of things or persons

first in rank

influence, honour

chief

principal

first, at the first

At the Strong's Greek reference you posted, about 1.5 inches down on your screen, you will see the "SHOW ALL" button. That is where you will find a reference to all of the times it is used in each of the various categories above.  You will see Rev 20:5 as corresponding to the usage I have highlighted above on this page. Unless you were unfamiliar with these simple functions, it has been -your choice- to ignore the usage and use one not intended to make your point.

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4 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi iamlamad

                    NLT Heb 11:40- For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us.

So here is yet another translation. I think you and I will continue to disagree on these things. I read it as people being resurrected at the same time, you read it as them reaching that state at varying times.- Your choice.

Also, one last comment on Rev 20:5- But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Here is the outline of its usage: (G4413)

first in time or place

in any succession of things or persons

first in rank

influence, honour

chief

principal

first, at the first

At the Strong's Greek reference you posted, about 1.5 inches down on your screen, you will see the "SHOW ALL" button. That is where you will find a reference to all of the times it is used in each of the various categories above.  You will see Rev 20:5 as corresponding to the usage I have highlighted above on this page. Unless you were unfamiliar with these simple functions, it has been -your choice- to ignore the usage and use one not intended to make your point.

Finally: you have written something I can agree with!  ?   "I think you and I will continue to disagree on these things."

 

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22 hours ago, Uriah said:

No problem, the scripture (approved by Jesus says, "THIS is the first resurrection..." I'll stick with that. This is why various scholars call it the first general resurrection. Because people try to make many others count as the first etc.

You are thinking "first in time." And you are right, for the second resurrection comes a thousand years later. But you are also thinking this is a one time event that comes after the tribulation. In that you are mistaken. ALL the righteous have or will take part in this resurrection.

If you wish to find the timing of Paul's rapture, you must get it from Paul - for no one else got his revelation. Error comes when people try to find the timing for the rapture of the church in the Olivet Discourse - or some obscure verse in the Old Testament. There is only one other place one can get a hint of Paul's timing, and that is the great crowd, too large to number. 

By the way, I am waiting for you to show us where the rapture is in relation to the start of the 70th week - in Revelation.

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