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The Last Trumpet: The Trumpet of God


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6 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Greetings iamlamad

The text in 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5 have nothing to do with the tribulation.  They have nothing to do with the church escaping tribulation.  I know that yo can not see anything else but it is simply not there and not connected in any way.  The teaching of Jesus and the prayer of Jesus are contrary to what you are suggesting.  Jesus taught that the wheat and the tares are to grow together until the time of the harvest.  At the time of the harvest the tares are taken out first.  They are gathered and burned then the wheat is gathered in.  Your rapture theory has it all backward from that.  According to your theory the wheat is gathered up and then the tares are dealt with.  That is backward and not according to scripture. This is the teaching from Matthew 13:  

Jesus was almost always talking to Jews about THEIR time. The Gentile church of today did not exist. The parable of the tares will come at the end of the 70th week of DANIEL. Go back and look: it is for DANIEL and HIS people. The 70th week or "the trib" as some say has nothing to do with the church. The church will be gone.  It is at the END when the parable of the tares takes place. Perhaps it takes place at the sheep and goat judgment, or at the moment Jesus descends. It has nothing to do with the church or the rapture of the church. 

My rapture theory is Paul's rapture theory because he wrote it. You said it has nothing to do with "the tribulation." I disagree. I think the rapture is the TRIGGER for the start of the DAY, and when the DAY starts, that is the trigger for the start of the WEEK. The DAY is wrath, and Paul talks about wrath. Therefore it IS connected. Did you notice, just 3 verses after paul's classic rapture verse about those alive being caught up, Paul mentions the Day of the Lord. just two verses between. Why would Paul do that? Because the rapture and the DAY are back to back events that cannot be separated. The rapture ENDS the age of grace. The "time" or dispensation then becomes "the Day of the Lord." The age of the church will be over. 

Then when Paul tells us about those who are alive and in Christ getting "salvation" or being raptured, while at the same moment those not in Christ get left behind and suffer the sudden destruction.  Immediately then Paul talks of God setting no appointments with His wrath. Why? Because WRATH (judgment) follows the rapture. 

The "wheat" will be the Jews and Hebrews that make it through. One third will make it. 

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10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Jesus was almost always talking to Jews about THEIR time. The Gentile church of today did not exist. The parable of the tares will come at the end of the 70th week of DANIEL. Go back and look: it is for DANIEL and HIS people. The 70th week or "the trib" as some say has nothing to do with the church. The church will be gone.  It is at the END when the parable of the tares takes place. Perhaps it takes place at the sheep and goat judgment, or at the moment Jesus descends. It has nothing to do with the church or the rapture of the church. 

My rapture theory is Paul's rapture theory because he wrote it. You said it has nothing to do with "the tribulation." I disagree. I think the rapture is the TRIGGER for the start of the DAY, and when the DAY starts, that is the trigger for the start of the WEEK. The DAY is wrath, and Paul talks about wrath. Therefore it IS connected. Did you notice, just 3 verses after paul's classic rapture verse about those alive being caught up, Paul mentions the Day of the Lord. just two verses between. Why would Paul do that? Because the rapture and the DAY are back to back events that cannot be separated. The rapture ENDS the age of grace. The "time" or dispensation then becomes "the Day of the Lord." The age of the church will be over. 

Then when Paul tells us about those who are alive and in Christ getting "salvation" or being raptured, while at the same moment those not in Christ get left behind and suffer the sudden destruction.  Immediately then Paul talks of God setting no appointments with His wrath. Why? Because WRATH (judgment) follows the rapture. 

The "wheat" will be the Jews and Hebrews that make it through. One third will make it. 

I don't understand your position at all but good luck with it.  What part of we will not proceed them is it that you do not understand?  Oh I forgot you can add to the resurrections and validate your theory.  Then you accuse me of adding to the scripture when I question that addition.  So If Jesus was only talking to the Jews and what He said to them has nothing to do with us we are without hope.   

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1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

I don't understand your position at all but good luck with it.  What part of we will not proceed them is it that you do not understand?  Oh I forgot you can add to the resurrections and validate your theory.  Then you accuse me of adding to the scripture when I question that addition.  So If Jesus was only talking to the Jews and what He said to them has nothing to do with us we are without hope.   

It is strange you don't understand it, for it is what untold millions of believers today believe.  Agreed: those that are alive and "In Christ" won't go first - it is the DEAD in Christ that goes first. But it is almost a moot point, because the time between the dead rising and those who are alive rising will be a very short time indeed, perhaps milliseconds. 

What have I added? There is ONE (1) (Count to 1) resurrection for the just. Jesus of necessity was a part of that resurrection, for He was Just. His was called "the firstfruits" meaning there will be more to follow. OF COURSE then He was the first to be resurrection in this firsts or most honorable of resurrections! ALL the righteous must be in this first resurrection. 

Our difference is, you imagine it is a one time event that will take place after the tribulation. I don't. Your theory doesn't fit all the end times scriptures.

OF COURSE we are not without hope! Jesus gave PAUL the revelation of Christ in US, the hope of glory. Of course MUCH of what Jesus said fits all believers today, such as the beatitudes. However, most of His words on the end times was directed to the Jews. This is not a difficult concept.  It is a truth of Scripture: the 70th week is for DANIEL'S people, not the church. 

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On 4/6/2019 at 4:42 PM, iamlamad said:

Christ as the firstfruits.

The church as second, third, fourth etc fruits - as the second wave: a crowd too large to number

The 144,000 as the next wave, probably around the midpoint of the week.

The Old Testament saints along with those beheaded and the two witnesses as the next wave - at or near the 7th vial. 

I never have seen it that way.  But I have that little quirk about me that likes to get the OT take on these things.

Yes, Yeshua is the first fruits of those who are resurrected to life, but He is not the first fruits of the harvest.  He is not one of the redeemed so He is not part of the harvest.  

 I believe Leviticus 23 is in view.  Yeshua is our High Priest.  At the time of the harvest, the High Priest presents the first fruits of the harvest to the Father.  Yeshua did that by taking the resurrected saints of Matthew 27:52-53 to the Father as the first fruits of the harvest.  As the High Priest, He would have had to remain ceremonially pure until that task was accomplished.  After His resurrection He told Mary not to handle Him because he had not yet ascended to the Father.  As High Priest, He had to remain undefiled until He had presented the first fruits of the harvest.   Yet later that evening (really the next day since the new day starts at sunset), He appeared to the disciples and He told them to touch Him to prove He wasn't a ghost or spirit.   He had accomplished the presentation of the first fruits before that.  The scripture doesn't  state specifically what became of those resurrected saints, but many early writers who knew the Apostles or students of them wrote that these saints were taken to the Father by Yeshua.  And that would fit with Leviticus 23 and the events of the resurrection day.

But these OT saints were never part of the NT church.  They are redeemed thru Yeshua just like those in the church, but they are not part of the church.  The official start of the church we are part of did not come till 7 weeks after the resurrection.

The main harvest is yet in store.  That will be the gathering of the redeemed unto Yeshua.   That will leave the gleanings part of the harvest, which is part of the harvest requirements of scripture also and comes after the main harvest.   This will be those who place their trust in Yeshua during the tribulation period before Yeshua returns to set up His kingdom on earth.

When in doubt, follow Yeshua's statement that the Torah and the Prophets were written of Him.  He is in every regulatory requirement of the Torah. And the harvest is clearly outlined in the Torah and Yeshua is the center of it.

Just another perspective, but one that works exceptionally well for me.  

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35 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

I never have seen it that way.  But I have that little quirk about me that likes to get the OT take on these things.

Yes, Yeshua is the first fruits of those who are resurrected to life, but He is not the first fruits of the harvest.  He is not one of the redeemed so He is not part of the harvest.  

 I believe Leviticus 23 is in view.  Yeshua is our High Priest.  At the time of the harvest, the High Priest presents the first fruits of the harvest to the Father.  Yeshua did that by taking the resurrected saints of Matthew 27:52-53 to the Father as the first fruits of the harvest.  As the High Priest, He would have had to remain ceremonially pure until that task was accomplished.  After His resurrection He told Mary not to handle Him because he had not yet ascended to the Father.  As High Priest, He had to remain undefiled until He had presented the first fruits of the harvest.   Yet later that evening (really the next day since the new day starts at sunset), He appeared to the disciples and He told them to touch Him to prove He wasn't a ghost or spirit.   He had accomplished the presentation of the first fruits before that.  The scripture doesn't  state specifically what became of those resurrected saints, but many early writers who knew the Apostles or students of them wrote that these saints were taken to the Father by Yeshua.  And that would fit with Leviticus 23 and the events of the resurrection day.

But these OT saints were never part of the NT church.  They are redeemed thru Yeshua just like those in the church, but they are not part of the church.  The official start of the church we are part of did not come till 7 weeks after the resurrection.

The main harvest is yet in store.  That will be the gathering of the redeemed unto Yeshua.   That will leave the gleanings part of the harvest, which is part of the harvest requirements of scripture also and comes after the main harvest.   This will be those who place their trust in Yeshua during the tribulation period before Yeshua returns to set up His kingdom on earth.

When in doubt, follow Yeshua's statement that the Torah and the Prophets were written of Him.  He is in every regulatory requirement of the Torah. And the harvest is clearly outlined in the Torah and Yeshua is the center of it.

Just another perspective, but one that works exceptionally well for me.  

I think those would have been the firstfruits of the Old Testament saints.  I think the church will be the second, third, fourth, etc, of the New Covenant. If you can filter the Old through the new and keep the same perspective, very good.  Much of the Old is made clearer in the New.

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