choir loft Posted April 4, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,207 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 328 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted April 4, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, iamlamad said: Leviticus 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Another good theory down the drain! Did you not read my post? How does stating multiple uses and times for blowing the shofar destroy an explanation? You are referring to an English translation of Hebrew text. ENGLISH do not blow shofars and therefore do not understand the term as you yourself so clearly demonstrate. The shofar is blown on many occasions and like language itself the meaning of the sound is modified by the time and circumstance of its use. I think you are blowing something other than an explanation of shofar - smoke perhaps? Think about what the descriptive use MEANS. It's not just a horn and the sound isn't just a noise. It has meaning - all of which you seem quite eager to deny. I wonder why anyone would deny the efficacy of scripture. that's me, hollering from the choir loft.... Edited April 4, 2019 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted April 4, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,207 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 328 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted April 4, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Jostler said: "If there's no rapture, then just what is this "gathering"? There's an answer, but it takes a good bit of drawing in other references to reveal it. Rapture fans only have one answer - the wrong one. The GATHERING refers to the Hebrew word and concept ALIYAH, not the rapture of Protestant American Christians. Anti-semitic ideology of rapture fans is raising its ugly head once again. It its Jewish, then it can't possibly be the correct interpretation. German Nazis shared the same conviction. Politically, it is the primary component of Zionism - as in "making aliyah" or participating in the gathering of Jews to Eretz Israel (land of Israel) - NOT Protestant Christians to the clouds. Prophetically, it is a reference to Ezekiel 37, the dry bones prediction of the End Times. Ezekiel was predicting a gathering of living persons to Israel, not American Protestants to the sky. Historically, it is a reference to the return of Jews to their ancient homeland given to them by God (and affirmed by the Islamic Qur'an). (*) Current Events, read in every newspaper and seen on every TV set, are displayed in truth. The consequences of Aliyah are bloody real, not a theory. Three major religions of planet Earth understand the meaning of gathering/alihyah as well as its purpose; Judaism, Islam & most of Christendom. The single exception is of American Protestants who miss the point completely because they are obsessed with the false demonic doctrine of the rapture. They cannot and will not explain the Bible any other way, despite overwhelming contextual evidence to the contrary. "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man can reason away." - the Doobie Brothers WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES song of the year 1980 "A lie told often enough becomes the truth." - V.I. Lenin Rapture fans are very good at repeating the lie ad nauseam. They are very good at refusing to examine scripture truthfully - lest they understand the rapture for what it really is - a tissue of lies and deception. According to Islamic scripture, rapture fans may be described as losers (Qur'an 5.20-21). According to everyone else they are simply very misguided persons. The Gathering refers to Jewish Aliyah - the gathering of the Jewish people to their homeland. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (*) Allah gives Palestine to Jews——————— And We made the people who were deemed weak to inherit the eastern lands and the western ones which We had blessed; and the good word of your Lord was fulfilled in the children of Israel because they bore up (sufferings) patiently; and We utterly destroyed what Firon (pharaoh) and his people had wrought and what they built. - Qur’an 7.137 And when Musa (Moses) said to his people: O my people! remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations. O my people! enter the holy land which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers. - Our’an 5.20-21 And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment. - Qur’an 17.104 And.surely they purposed to unsettle you from the land that they might expel you from it, and in that case they will not tarry behind you but a little. - Qur’an 17.76 (prophecy of attempts to remove Jews from Palestine) Edited April 4, 2019 by choir loft scripture reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted April 4, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 4, 2019 8 hours ago, iamlamad said: Let's take the signs in the sun and moon for an example: one such sign is at the 6th seal, found in chapter 6 of Revelation. The other, according to Jesus, will come after "the tribulation" of those days, and just before Christ returns to Armageddon. If John had seen it and written it, it would be found in Rev. 19. However, John did not see it and did not write it. You imagine these two signs are the same. Many others do to. However, if we look at the differences, we can see that they are two different signs. The seals are sealing a book and John gets them opened one by one. Once the seals are all opened, then the trumpets are sounded. No trumpet can be sounded before all 7 seals, because the trumpets are what is INSIDE the book. The book CANNOT be opened to start the trumpets until all 7 seals are opened first. So it is simply impossible that something in the seals is the same event as something after the days of tribulation. (Just so you know, the tribulation, or 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. Jesus returns AFTER the week has finished. There will be events between the end of the week (7th vial) and His coming (Rev. 19). Those events are the events of chapters 17 & 18 and the marriage and supper in chapter 19. The signs Jesus mentioned in Matthew then MUST COME after the week has ended at the 7th vial and before Jesus comes in chapter 19. Next, the signs themselves are different: in one the sun is visible but looks black, and the moon appears red: in other words, both are visible. In Jesus' sign, both are darkened, including the stars - meaning total darkness. Two different signs for two different purposes. In short, there will be over 7 years between these two signs. Next, Joel shows the 6th seal sign in Joel 2, and the sign Jesus mentioned in chapter 3 - two different signs for two different purposes and over 7 years apart. I am so sure of John's chronology I always write, any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proven wrong. Hi iamlamad The scriptures say, Matt 24:29- Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken Rev 6:13- And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. But you say it isn't so. You are looking for what it doesn't say instead of what it actually does say. Differences, you say. Yet there are examples of pre-telling and re-telling in scripture all the way back to Genesis. You even dare to say what should be said and where the scriptures should say it. It doesn't work like that- believe the scriptures. Rev 9:14- Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. Rev 16:12- And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. Rev 6:14- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 16:20- And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 7th vial Rev 9:1 & 2- And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. Rev 16:1- And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain Rev 8:12- And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. Rev 16:8- And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire Rev 8:10- And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; Rev 16:4- And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. Rev 8:8- And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; Rev 16:3- And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. Rev 8:1-5- And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour..............And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. Rev 11:15-19- And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever......and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Rev 16:17 & 18- And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. You may be so sure of your chronology, but I still say believe the scriptures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted April 4, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.09 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Uriah said: Hi iamlamad The scriptures say, Matt 24:29- Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken Rev 6:13- And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. But you say it isn't so. You are looking for what it doesn't say instead of what it actually does say. Differences, you say. Yet there are examples of pre-telling and re-telling in scripture all the way back to Genesis. You even dare to say what should be said and where the scriptures should say it. It doesn't work like that- believe the scriptures. Rev 9:14- Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. Rev 16:12- And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. Rev 6:14- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 16:20- And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 7th vial Rev 9:1 & 2- And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. Rev 16:1- And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain Rev 8:12- And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. Rev 16:8- And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire Rev 8:10- And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; Rev 16:4- And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. Rev 8:8- And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; Rev 16:3- And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. Rev 8:1-5- And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour..............And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. Rev 11:15-19- And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever......and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Rev 16:17 & 18- And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. You may be so sure of your chronology, but I still say believe the scriptures! You are analyzing a tree - or a few trees at most. You need to back up a mile or two so you can see the forest! What you are missing: the importance of the book in the Father's right hand. How much of Revelation is about that book? I would say most of the book! It is first mentioned in chapter 5 but chapter 4 is the context of chapter 5. The book then probably covers from chapter 4 to chapter 16, when the seals on the book are included. Chapters 4-8 are to get the seals open so that the book can be opened. Chapters 8 through 16 are what is written INSIDE the book: the 70th week of Daniel. God is WELL able to produce signs in the sun and moon from this day forth and forever - every day a different sign! Two signs may well look alike - may well BE alike, but we have to consider the TIMING. If one sign happens in 2019 and another in 2026, how in the world can they be the same sign - even if every aspect is the same? The answer is, they cannot possibly be the same. " Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" What will CAUSE "the tribulation of those days?" What does "tribulation" mean? It means PRESSURE - in this case caused by oppression: from chapter 13 we know what it will be: people will be forced to bow to an idol, a copy of what Nebuchadnezzar did. Add to that people will be forced to take a mark so they can buy or sell. But before that, angels will fly the world, warning every human in their own language that to take the mark will doom them to the lake of fire. At the same time, there will be no water to drink. People will be so thirsty they would do almost anything for a drink of water - but they cannot enter a store and buy without the mark. It is going to be a very terrible time to live. So WHERE will "those days" of "great tribulation" be found in Revelation? They will be AFTER the warning is given in chapter 14. We see the beheaded begin to show up in chapter 15. Then the vials of God's wrath will be poured out - to SHORTEN those days of GT. Then the 7th vial will end the 70th week. Then chapters 17 and 18 show the destruction of "Babylon" or the great city of Jerusalem where the Beast will have headquartered. Then finally in chapter 16 we get the parallel to Matthew 24: 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light... In Matthew 24, this verse comes AFTER the days of GT. We see then that the parallel to this verse in Matthew 24 is Rev. 19. Now you expect your readers to believe it is legitimate to pull a seal from the book and move it to the end of the week? Or, move His coming from chapter 19 to the 6th seal? It is preposterous! You must follow John's chronology: first the seals are opened one by one. WHY? The PURPOSE is to get the book open, for inside the book is what will knock Satan from his earthy throne as god of this world. Next, once all seals are opned, the book is opened, and what is written inside is what we read in Rev. 8: the trumpet judgments - for at the 7th trumpet Satan loses and Jesus gains. NO MORE will Satan be the god of this world. EVen though the kingdoms of the world become the righfull and legal property or our Lord at the 7th trumpet - God has promised the Beast his 42 months of authority. So from chapter 13 to chapter 19 when Jesus returns will be his 42 months. Now, if you still want to rearrange, go ahead, but just know, your theory will be proven wrong. How can one move a mountain if the mountain cannot be found? Believe the scriptures! Don't rearrange them! First comes a bad earthquake that moves the mountains, but later a much worse earthquake that makes the mountains disappear. These two are not the same earthquake. There is TIME between them. You need to do a study on the TIMING of Revelation! How can ANYONE equate a third part of the sun smitten with total darkness? They are not the same. Just know, your theory will be proven wrong - and it won't be long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted April 4, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.09 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 4, 2019 1 hour ago, choir loft said: Rapture fans only have one answer - the wrong one. The GATHERING refers to the Hebrew word and concept ALIYAH, not the rapture of Protestant American Christians. Anti-semitic ideology of rapture fans is raising its ugly head once again. It its Jewish, then it can't possibly be the correct interpretation. German Nazis shared the same conviction. Politically, it is the primary component of Zionism - as in "making aliyah" or participating in the gathering of Jews to Eretz Israel (land of Israel) - NOT Protestant Christians to the clouds. Prophetically, it is a reference to Ezekiel 37, the dry bones prediction of the End Times. Ezekiel was predicting a gathering of living persons to Israel, not American Protestants to the sky. Historically, it is a reference to the return of Jews to their ancient homeland given to them by God (and affirmed by the Islamic Qur'an). (*) Current Events, read in every newspaper and seen on every TV set, are displayed in truth. The consequences of Aliyah are bloody real, not a theory. Three major religions of planet Earth understand the meaning of gathering/alihyah as well as its purpose; Judaism, Islam & most of Christendom. The single exception is of American Protestants who miss the point completely because they are obsessed with the false demonic doctrine of the rapture. They cannot and will not explain the Bible any other way, despite overwhelming contextual evidence to the contrary. "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man can reason away." - the Doobie Brothers WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES song of the year 1980 "A lie told often enough becomes the truth." - V.I. Lenin Rapture fans are very good at repeating the lie ad nauseam. They are very good at refusing to examine scripture truthfully - lest they understand the rapture for what it really is - a tissue of lies and deception. According to Islamic scripture, rapture fans may be described as losers (Qur'an 5.20-21). According to everyone else they are simply very misguided persons. The Gathering refers to Jewish Aliyah - the gathering of the Jewish people to their homeland. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (*) Allah gives Palestine to Jews——————— And We made the people who were deemed weak to inherit the eastern lands and the western ones which We had blessed; and the good word of your Lord was fulfilled in the children of Israel because they bore up (sufferings) patiently; and We utterly destroyed what Firon (pharaoh) and his people had wrought and what they built. - Qur’an 7.137 And when Musa (Moses) said to his people: O my people! remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations. O my people! enter the holy land which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers. - Our’an 5.20-21 And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment. - Qur’an 17.104 And.surely they purposed to unsettle you from the land that they might expel you from it, and in that case they will not tarry behind you but a little. - Qur’an 17.76 (prophecy of attempts to remove Jews from Palestine) Look, CL, if you wish to be left behind, that is between you and God. The pretrib rapture is truth, and very real, and could happen tonight. Perhaps you should take a look at this verse: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Question: do you want Christ to appear to YOU at the same time He is appearing to the rest of the church? He is only going to appear to those that are LOOKING FOR HIM. Everything a believer gets from heaven or from God comes by FAITH. Since you have ZERO faith in His coming FOR the church, don't even think you will be caught up. It is a heavenly principle: 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. Don't even THINK you will be caught up with the rest of the church that is EXPECTING Him. Since it looks like you will be left behind, I have a suggestion: just turn yourself in right away - tell them you are a believer - and you will lose your head and become one of those listed in the first verses of Rev. 13. Or maybe you are a Jew and don't believe Jesus is the Messiah. If so, the result will be the same: you will be left behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted April 4, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.09 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 4, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, choir loft said: Did you not read my post? How does stating multiple uses and times for blowing the shofar destroy an explanation? You are referring to an English translation of Hebrew text. ENGLISH do not blow shofars and therefore do not understand the term as you yourself so clearly demonstrate. The shofar is blown on many occasions and like language itself the meaning of the sound is modified by the time and circumstance of its use. I think you are blowing something other than an explanation of shofar - smoke perhaps? Think about what the descriptive use MEANS. It's not just a horn and the sound isn't just a noise. It has meaning - all of which you seem quite eager to deny. I wonder why anyone would deny the efficacy of scripture. that's me, hollering from the choir loft.... Numbers 10:2 2 “Make two trumpets for yourself; make them of hammered silver, and use them to summon the assembly and to break up the camps. Another theory down the drain. I wonder why anyone would deny the truth of scripture. Edited April 4, 2019 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted April 4, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.09 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 4, 2019 11 hours ago, Jostler said: well I could put together some for sure. I can at least share the Scriptures He's taught me out of so far. Lots of the information about the Millennium comes through the OT prophets. Isaiah and Ezekiel have a lot to say about it. Let me dig up and organize some Scriptures. I think the first thing that happened for me as He began to open this up was just recognizing how little I really did know. One of the first things I started wrestling with came after the realization that all the eschatology I "knew" pretty much ran out to then end of Revelation 19 and just stopped. It had to do with these two verses: There Jesus is speaking (I believe of the Great Tribulation period) and we can draw some inferences from what He says there. It sounds like He's painting a rather dire picture of a time so devastating that if He didn't intervene, not one single life on earth would survive. But obviously He does choose to intervene and some do survive, however small that remnant may turn out to be. That leaves us to infer that there are some who live, in this fallen flesh, right up to the time of His return and continue on into the Millennial Reign. It seems safe to assume these overcoming survivors will be who repopulates the earth after all the destruction of the Great Tribulation. Then there's this: At the very same time, the "end of the age" closed out by His arrival on earth, and the beginning of the Millennial Reign we see this group too, who were dead, but are now resurrected to "rule and reign" with Him, not forever, but for a specified 1000 year period. So, conclusion number one I came to was the understanding that this is something unique in human history. And something I've never heard taught anywhere before. But the only conclusion I can draw from this is the fact that for the first time since Jesus ascended, there are two "classes" of human beings living on the earth at the same time. One "class" includes people as we are now. "Sons of Adam" in that they are still in flesh and blood bodies subject to the fallen nature, death and decay. But there's also a "class" who are "as He is" raised and now in possession of resurrected bodies. Perfect and incorruptible. In this thousand year period these are a "ruling class" who rule and reign with Him, while the ones who remain as we now are go on to repopulate the earth and fill it. Isaiah and Ezekiel have a lot to say about what life will be like for these and what the earth will be like during that thousand years. Thats a hasty effort to lay out a beginning I hope it made sense so far. I'll try to gather up a few more specific references from the OT and post them here later. Just that bit I did open up with those two verses touches on a whole range of things that immediately come into view, like: "If there's no rapture, then just what is this "gathering"? There's an answer, but it takes a good bit of drawing in other references to reveal it. Why would ANYONE think: "if there's no rapture?" The rapture is a given, clearly taught in scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted April 4, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 4, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, iamlamad said: You are analyzing a tree - or a few trees at most. You need to back up a mile or two so you can see the forest! What you are missing: the importance of the book in the Father's right hand. How much of Revelation is about that book? I would say most of the book! It is first mentioned in chapter 5 but chapter 4 is the context of chapter 5. The book then probably covers from chapter 4 to chapter 16, when the seals on the book are included. Chapters 4-8 are to get the seals open so that the book can be opened. Chapters 8 through 16 are what is written INSIDE the book: the 70th week of Daniel. God is WELL able to produce signs in the sun and moon from this day forth and forever - every day a different sign! Two signs may well look alike - may well BE alike, but we have to consider the TIMING. If one sign happens in 2019 and another in 2026, how in the world can they be the same sign - even if every aspect is the same? The answer is, they cannot possibly be the same. " Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" What will CAUSE "the tribulation of those days?" What does "tribulation" mean? It means PRESSURE - in this case caused by oppression: from chapter 13 we know what it will be: people will be forced to bow to an idol, a copy of what Nebuchadnezzar did. Add to that people will be forced to take a mark so they can buy or sell. But before that, angels will fly the world, warning every human in their own language that to take the mark will doom them to the lake of fire. At the same time, there will be no water to drink. People will be so thirsty they would do almost anything for a drink of water - but they cannot enter a store and buy without the mark. It is going to be a very terrible time to live. So WHERE will "those days" of "great tribulation" be found in Revelation? They will be AFTER the warning is given in chapter 14. We see the beheaded begin to show up in chapter 15. Then the vials of God's wrath will be poured out - to SHORTEN those days of GT. Then the 7th vial will end the 70th week. Then chapters 17 and 18 show the destruction of "Babylon" or the great city of Jerusalem where the Beast will have headquartered. Then finally in chapter 16 we get the parallel to Matthew 24: 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light... In Matthew 24, this verse comes AFTER the days of GT. We see then that the parallel to this verse in Matthew 24 is Rev. 19. Now you expect your readers to believe it is legitimate to pull a seal from the book and move it to the end of the week? Or, move His coming from chapter 19 to the 6th seal? It is preposterous! You must follow John's chronology: first the seals are opened one by one. WHY? The PURPOSE is to get the book open, for inside the book is what will knock Satan from his earthy throne as god of this world. Next, once all seals are opned, the book is opened, and what is written inside is what we read in Rev. 8: the trumpet judgments - for at the 7th trumpet Satan loses and Jesus gains. NO MORE will Satan be the god of this world. EVen though the kingdoms of the world become the righfull and legal property or our Lord at the 7th trumpet - God has promised the Beast his 42 months of authority. So from chapter 13 to chapter 19 when Jesus returns will be his 42 months. Now, if you still want to rearrange, go ahead, but just know, your theory will be proven wrong. How can one move a mountain if the mountain cannot be found? Believe the scriptures! Don't rearrange them! First comes a bad earthquake that moves the mountains, but later a much worse earthquake that makes the mountains disappear. These two are not the same earthquake. There is TIME between them. You need to do a study on the TIMING of Revelation! How can ANYONE equate a third part of the sun smitten with total darkness? They are not the same. Just know, your theory will be proven wrong - and it won't be long. Hi ianlamad Do you deny the things I showed you? You can see very well that they match, thereby making the proof for the non linear nature of Revelation. It nullifies the notion that these things are not repeated because you have determined what God SHOULD have said. Therefore there is no 7 yr tribulation, it is 3.5 yrs long-and all believers will be raptured at the END, not before. Furthermore, those cataclysmic signs will last for a period of months, not years after the 42 month period stated. Edited April 4, 2019 by Uriah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted April 4, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.09 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Uriah said: Hi ianlamad Do you deny the things I showed you? You can see very well that they match, thereby making the proof for the non linear nature of Revelation. It nullifies the notion that these things are not repeated because you have determined what God SHOULD have said. Therefore there is no 7 yr tribulation, it is 3.5 yrs long-and all believers will be raptured at the END, not before. Furthermore, those cataclysmic signs will last for a period of months, not years after the 42 month period stated. It is "proof" only in your mind, not others. Do you deny the things I showed you? They come right off the pages of the book. If you wish to be left behind when Jesus comes pretrib for His church, that is between you and God. I wonder though, if you convince someone of your wrong theory and they MISS the pretrib rapture because of you - will God hold you accountable? OF COURSE there is a 7 year 70th week. Do you imagine Jacob worked only 3.5 years for the woman he loved? No, He worked 7 long years. That is why they also called the 70th week "Jacob's trouble." And Paul tells us HIS rapture comes before wrath - and John tells us the wrath of God begins before the week even starts. In other words, I have no idea where your theory comes from. Like I said, it does not matter if two events matched perfectly: what matters is, WHAT TIME does each event happen. The truth is, you are IGNORING the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted April 4, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted April 4, 2019 General Statement ... Please choose your words carefully. One may not accept the theology another member has, which is why we have discussions. These discussions follow scripture as we are to reason with one another. Unfortunately, sometimes our flesh rears its ugly head and we find ourselves writing accusatory statements instead of disagreement statements. These statements are passive aggressive in nature and are not straight out personal attacks, yet, they cut still the same. Remember, eschatology and prophecy forums are not built for "I'm right and you're wrong" statements because nobody can prove 100% they are correct until the future becomes the present or past. We all see through a glass darkly or in a mirror dimly as we do not know the complete truth until we see it happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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