What is your view of hell?

[DarrenJClark]

On ‎4‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 10:19 AM, Xethea said:

Hell is a place for spiritual torture, basically. A place God set for those evil ones like Satan and demons who betrayed God in Heaven. Unbelievers/unsaved sinners will also be there when their time on earth is finished. 

 

Spirits never, ever end. We are born with dead spirits, yet, they exist. It's not the same as a dead body, as if when it dies, it vanishes completely with no trace of it. There is still a way to trace a dead spirit. God is a spirit, He is forever. He has made us like Him, once we exist, we exist for an eternity.

Two points.  1, A central Christian doctrine is that the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous at the end of this age will be a full embodied resurrection.  The traditional view of hell holds that the wicked go to hell fully embodied.  Your view of just the human spirit being tortured in hell is even more an outlier version of hell than mine is.  At least I have historical examples of Christian theologian I can appeal to as evidence that conditionalism was held by some early church fathers and other theologians throughout history.  Do you know of any theologians who have held to your view?  I ask because I would read them as see what they say.

2, The Bible nowhere states that the human spirit is immortal.  What verse do you have in mind that support your view of immortal human spirits?

 

[JustPassingThru]

On 2/12/2019 at 12:47 PM, DarrenJClark said:

there is the view that when God punishes the wicked in hell it will destroy or kill them (I will call this conditional immortality, or CI),

I am a conditionalist. 

I'm curious, how long will the souls of the lost conditionally remain in Hell, ...5 years, 50, 100, 500, 1,000?

Please, can you give scriptural proof?

[Kristin]

This topic bothers me tremendously. Many people I know and love are not saved. I believe Hell is a temporary abode of unbelievers. The lake of fire is the ultimate destination of many I understand. Heartbreaking. I pray for the salvation of my family first. Then I think on it and I am tortured by the fact of unending destruction of the ungodly. And then I think to pray for the whole of humanity. It’s the most important thing pressed on the Body of Christ. We must try. I hate hell and the lake of of fire. I hate Satan tho too. Humans shouldn’t have to go to the lake of fire IMO. BUT GOD... He does what is right always. I trust in my Lord. That’s all I can do. 

[DarrenJClark]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 8:48 AM, JustPassingThru said:

I'm curious, how long will the souls of the lost conditionally remain in Hell, ...5 years, 50, 100, 500, 1,000?

Please, can you give scriptural proof?

Your question makes me think you do not understand what conditional immortality is.  The label conditional immortality applies to the biblical teaching that human immortality is conditional on God.   The following is from the Rethinking Hell website.

 

"God alone possesses immortality innately and therefore any other being who is immortal (imperishable, deathless) is so extrinsically, that is, as the result of a positive act of God. No other being, human or otherwise, whether by creation or resurrection, possesses immortality innately but only as God’s specific gift.  Immortality is a gift bestowed by God upon his children. To receive this crown, a person must belong to Christ. Such is the condition of this conditional immortality. And this conditionalist view is evangelical insofar as it is understood and articulated within a framework of evangelical Christian orthodoxy."

 

"From cover to cover the Bible indicates that immortality and everlasting life are gifts given by God only to his people. In Genesis 3:22-23 God banished Adam and Eve from the garden so that, without access to the Tree of Life, they would not live forever. In the imagery of Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:14, only believers will have access to the Tree of Life as inhabitants of paradise, the New Jerusalem. The hope of immortality was lost in the fall, but 2 Timothy 1:10 says life and immortality were brought to light through the gospel. According to 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 believers in Jesus Christ will be clothed with immortality so that they can inherit the kingdom of God. The lost will not be granted immortality and will therefore not live forever. No wonder John 3:16 says those who do not believe will perish, and Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death."

 

Since unbelievers are not innately immortal they will die completely when they suffer the final punishment by God.  Evangelical conditionalism does not teach that unbelievers "conditionally remain in Hell" so asking me how long sinners will be in hell conditionally is irrelevant.  

 

 

[HAZARD]

On 4/7/2019 at 8:48 AM, JustPassingThru said:

I'm curious, how long will the souls of the lost conditionally remain in Hell, ...5 years, 50, 100, 500, 1,000?

Please, can you give scriptural proof?

The Lake of Fire, is the eternal Hell and perdition of wicked men, demons, fallen angels, and all rebellious creatures of all ages who have ever rebelled against God, and who have refused to repent when they could have. It is called "The Gehenna of Fire" and is always translated Hell (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43-45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). This prison is also called "the second death, which is the lake of fire" (Rev. 2:11; 20:6, 14). This final Hell was prepared for the devil and all his angels (Matt. 25:41-46), and for all other rebells, and it is ETERNAL in duration (Rev. 14:9-14; 20:10-15; Isa. 66:22-24; Matt. 25:46). There is no record in Scripture of anyone being the lake of fire at present. Scripture does show that the beast and the false prophet will be the first to be cast into it. This will happen before the Millennium (Rev. 19:20). They will still be there 1,000 years later when the devil and all other rebels will be cast into it (Rev. 20:10-15).

[JustPassingThru]

Exactly brother!

That is the point of my question, ...apparently 1,000 years isn't enough time to prove annihilationism to those that take away Eternal damnation from Scripture.

God meant what He said and said what He meant

1

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.  Rev 22:19 

[OpenMind]

On 2/12/2019 at 3:47 PM, DarrenJClark said:

There are three main views of hell in Evangelicalism.  There is the view that God will punish the wicked in hell forever (I will call this the eternal conscious punishment, or ECP view), there is the view that when God punishes the wicked in hell it will destroy or kill them (I will call this conditional immortality, or CI), and there is the view that God will refine the wicked in hell so as to ensure all are purified and eventually saved (I will call this purgatorial universal reconciliation, or PUR).  This by no means a comprehensive descriptions of these views of hell.

I am a conditionalist. 

I am wondering if people would please identify which view of hell they currently follow and list the single strongest argument for that view.  

I like to talk about how and why people hold to the doctrines they do rather than simply argue with them so I hope I can learn something new about these various views on hell.

Thankyou.

Hell is a Lie

I believe the concept of hell as typically depicted is a lie.  There is no place of eternal torment full of fire and tormenting demons.  The reason I say this is because it's not in scripture.  

The concept of eternal punishment was common in many pagan religions when Christianity began, including the Norse, the Teutons, the Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians and the Chinese.  The Roman Catholic Church is well known to have used fear to drive people, and their money, into the church and effectively used the image of hell to depict the horrors of the consequence of disobedience to the church. 

I don't believe the concept of hell was invented by the RCC perse, but rather it is an amalgamation of pagan concepts that seeped into Christianity with the help of the RCC as it suited their purpose.

Modern Bible Translations are Inaccurate

The King James Version is probably the biggest reason people continue to believe in it today as the words Sheol, Gehenna and Hades are translated as "Hell".  Sheol and Hades actually mean "the grave" or "the unseen place", which is the place where everybody goes upon death, but the KJV translators disingenuously translated these words as "Hell" when speaking of the wicked dying, but translated those same words as "the grave" when speaking of the righteous dying.  That's blatant bias designed to shape the thinking of the reader.

For example, 1 Corinthians 15:55

O death where is thy sting?  O grave (Hades) where is thy victory?

But the same word in Luke 10:15 is translated as hell.

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell (Hades).

There are literally hundreds of such examples.

Gehenna refers to a valley outside of Jerusalem where the Pagans used to sacrifice their children in fire and which was being used as a garbage incinerator in Jesus' time.  Yet this word also is translated as hell.

Matthew 5:29

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell (Gehenna).

Jesus was talking about physical fiery death here, not a place of eternal torment.

Early Christians Believed in Universalism

The second reason why I don't believe in a place of eternal torment is because the early Christians didn't either.  The concept of hell did not exist in Christianity for the first four centuries.  The original apostles creed (before the RCC corrupted it) made not a single mention of eternal punishment.  The grave stones of early Christians proclaimed joy and hope for all, depicting the Lord Jesus with a goat over his shoulder signifying that even the wicked will be found by the shepherd.  And it is from these early Christian centuries, when death was no longer regarded as death but sleep in the hope of salvation, and from which we get the word cemetery, which comes from the Greek word dormitory, which means "the sleeping place".  Death was no longer sadness but a reminder of hope and joy.  Every single piece of evidence of early Christian life is in line with the concept of universalism.

The Bible Itself Teaches  Universalism

Revelation 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him.

Colossians 1:20 having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself.

Acts 3:21: restitution of all things

Hebrews 1:2 heir of all things

Galatians 3:8 In thee shall all nations be blessed

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand

Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God

Luke 6:35 he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

2 Peter 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Romans 11:32 that he might have mercy upon all

Romans 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ

Ephesians 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things

John 3:13 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me

Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Titus 2:11 The grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for all people

John 1:29 Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

1 Timothy 4:10 the living God, who is the Saviour of all men

John 4:42 and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world

1 John 3:8 the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil

2 Timothy 1:10 our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death

Revelation 1:18 I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of death and hades

Revelation 20:14 death and hades were cast into the lake of fire

I Corinthians 15:22 In Christ shall all be made alive

Philippians 2:10-11 Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess

Edited April 26, 2019 by OpenMind

[OpenMind]

On 4/14/2019 at 4:54 PM, HAZARD said:

This final Hell was prepared for the devil and all his angels (Matt. 25:41-46), and for all other rebells, and it is ETERNAL in duration (Rev. 14:9-14; 20:10-15; Isa. 66:22-24; Matt. 25:46). 

If you look at the original Greek for Matthew 25:41 you'll see that the word translated as "eternal" is aiónios, which more accurately means "age long".  it's the word from which we get "eon" and it's translated as "eternal" because it means "a very long time", but it is not literally eternal, as in never ending.  Aiónios always refers to a time period, an age, which has an end.

Also...

[166 (aiṓnios) does not focus on the future per se, but rather on the quality of the age (165 /aiṓn) it relates to. Thus believers live in "eternal(166 /aiṓnios) life" right now, experiencing this quality of God's life now as a present possession.

[source]

Edited April 26, 2019 by OpenMind

[BorderCowboy]

My belief in hell is simply is to be removed from God's sight......the true horror. My belief is strong in our Lord, so as stated previously, I don't give it much thought. Just my two bits,  JJ

Edited April 26, 2019 by BorderCowboy

[HAZARD]

3 hours ago, OpenMind said:

If you look at the original Greek for Matthew 25:41 you'll see that the word translated as "eternal" is aiónios, which more accurately means "age long".  it's the word from which we get "eon" and it's translated as "eternal" because it means "a very long time", but it is not literally eternal, as in never ending.  Aiónios always refers to a time period, an age, which has an end.

Also...

[166 (aiṓnios) does not focus on the future per se, but rather on the quality of the age (165 /aiṓn) it relates to. Thus believers live in "eternal(166 /aiṓnios) life" right now, experiencing this quality of God's life now as a present possession.

[source]

Does for ever, and for ever and ever mean forever or not?

Rev 14:11 
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 

Rev 20:10 
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Just as we shall reign for ever and ever;

Rev 22:5 
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.