Stu of Whoville Posted February 15, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 33 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, DarrenJClark said: Well, I do believe the Bible, thoroughly. Do you think everyone who interprets a verse differently to you is disbelieving the Bible? 4 hours ago, missmuffet said: I guess you will just have to wait and find out if you do not believe in what the Holy Bible says. There is very compelling evidence on both sides of the debate. I have a high regard for the people who disagree with my position just as much as I have a high regard for those who agree with my position. There are somewhere around 100 Bible verses that seem to indicate that hell is the means by which the soul dies. There are fewer than 25 verses which indicate eternal conscious torment (ECT). Now, just because there are fewer verses supporting ECT doesn't mean that viewpoint is wrong, but it does help me to be willing to consider the 100 other verses and their viewpoint. Now, it seems to me, we must try to reconcile the two sides of the debate into a unified whole that faithfully supports all verses on the matter. The two arguments I have heard about this are... Eternal death and eternal torment are the same thing. When the Bible says that a wicked soul will die it really means that the wicked soul will live forever in a state of always dying. The other argument is that even though the the place (hell) may exist forever, that doesn't mean that the souls in hell necessarily endure forever. Even those verses which speak of forever and ever can be interpreted as hyperbolic language used to indicate a final and definite destruction. Their destruction is forever and ever. The eternal soul has met its end. It shall never return because it's end is a forever end. Both of these arguments seem lacking to me. I am undecided because I cannot find a theory that encompasses all of the scriptures on the topic. Edited February 15, 2019 by Stu of Whoville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrenJClark Posted February 15, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 85 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 7 hours ago, HAZARD said: The Bible needs no interpretation. A God who wrote a book by which men will be judged, and wrote it in such a way that it needed to be interpreted by experts to be understood would be no God at all. The Bible is a simple book to understand because it was given by God to be understood by the simple. You will be happy to know then, taken plainly Psalms 51; Matt 3:12; 10:28; 13:40-42; 18:8-9; 25:46; John 3:16; and, 2 Thess 1:9-10 all teach that the wicked are killed or destroyed by God. That is, if you want to take the words for what they most plainly mean then you will find option two has more support than option one. Your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrenJClark Posted February 15, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 85 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Stu of Whoville said: Eternal death and eternal torment are the same thing. When the Bible says that a wicked soul will die it really means that the wicked soul will live forever in a state of always dying. Where does the Bible call death eternal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrenJClark Posted February 15, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 85 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Stu of Whoville said: The other argument is that even though the the place (hell) may exist forever, that doesn't mean that the souls in hell necessarily endure forever. Even those verses which speak of forever and ever can be interpreted as hyperbolic language used to indicate a final and definite destruction. Their destruction is forever and ever. The eternal soul has met its end. It shall never return because it's end is a forever end. That hyperbolic language argument is not how I would argue as a conditionalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu of Whoville Posted February 15, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 33 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, DarrenJClark said: Where does the Bible call death eternal? Do you believe that death is not eternal (or maybe a better word would be final)? I don't understand that. How can death (or at least judgment) not be final. Hebrews 9:27 would seem to indicate that death is the final word on a person's life. Job 14:5, Ecclesiastes 9:5, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, John 3:36, Romans 6:23 all give relevant testimony. While true that there is a resurrection of the righteous, it is also true that once the final judgment has been made there will be no resurrection for the wicked. They either go to eternal torment or to the dustbin of the universe where the soul is destroyed. Whichever is true, there is no coming back from it. Edited February 15, 2019 by Stu of Whoville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bible_Gazer Posted February 15, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 450 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 152 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/05/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2019 Ever consider that if there is a place called hell for the eternity living dead that they are going to be here with the righteous on the same planet earth. Wow, we will never be to far from them, just on a different level. That is if people holds to that hell is beneath scripturally. Prov.15:21 Rev.21:2-3 does say heaven is coming down to earth and Matt.5:5 says the meek shall inherit the earth. Hum ! There will be shouting of glory above and shouting of pain below. Just can't see it being that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 15, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 40,782 Content Per Day: 7.95 Reputation: 21,262 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 15, 2019 On 2/12/2019 at 4:47 PM, DarrenJClark said: There are three main views of hell in Evangelicalism. There is the view that God will punish the wicked in hell forever (I will call this the eternal conscious punishment, or ECP view), there is the view that when God punishes the wicked in hell it will destroy or kill them (I will call this conditional immortality, or CI), and there is the view that God will refine the wicked in hell so as to ensure all are purified and eventually saved (I will call this purgatorial universal reconciliation, or PUR). This by no means a comprehensive descriptions of these views of hell. I am a conditionalist. I am wondering if people would please identify which view of hell they currently follow and list the single strongest argument for that view. I like to talk about how and why people hold to the doctrines they do rather than simply argue with them so I hope I can learn something new about these various views on hell. Thankyou. why don't you ask this man Luke 16:24 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. KJV 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAZARD Posted February 15, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 320 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 6,829 Content Per Day: 0.85 Reputation: 3,570 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/16/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2019 14 hours ago, DarrenJClark said: You will be happy to know then, taken plainly Psalms 51; Matt 3:12; 10:28; 13:40-42; 18:8-9; 25:46; John 3:16; and, 2 Thess 1:9-10 all teach that the wicked are killed or destroyed by God. That is, if you want to take the words for what they most plainly mean then you will find option two has more support than option one. Your choice. Why did you only quote half of what I wrote? And what have the scriptures you quoted to do with interpreting the Bible? Do yourself a favour and check all these scriptures. The Bible needs no interpretation. A God who wrote a book by which men will be judged, and wrote it in such a way that it needed to be interpreted by experts to be understood would be no God at all. The Bible is a simple book to understand because it was given by God to be understood by the simple. Following the commonly accepted argument that a perfect God cannot make anything imperfect, we can scripturally say that God did not fail in His purpose of giving man a simple revelation that could be easily understood by all men alike, even by the simple (Deut. 29:29; Ps. 119:104, 140; Proverbs 1:1-4; 2 Timothy 3:15-17). Paul speaks of "the simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Cor. 11:3). Jesus thanked God that the truths of the Bible were hidden from the worldly wise who refused to believe, and stated that God has "revealed them unto babes" (Matt. 11:25-27). He gives the reason truths are hidden from anyone. It is because they refuse to humble themselves to believe and conform to the Bible (Matt.13:10-17). Jesus speaks of the devil taking the Word from the hearts of men lest it should bring forth fruit (Matt. 13:19-23. Paul also speaks of the devil blinding the minds of men lest they should believe, and he also speaks of men wilfully handling the Word of God dishonestly and deceitfully (2 Cor. 4:1-6). The most simple beginners can understand the Bible one line at a time, for this is the way it was given, and it is the best way to understand it (Isa. 28:9-13). No man can get the vastness of the Bible at once. It is the infinite scope of the Bible truth that causes some men to think the Bible is hard to understand. Its like someone saying they cannot understand water because they cannot drink the whole ocean dry in one drink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrenJClark Posted February 15, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 85 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 1 hour ago, HAZARD said: Why did you only quote half of what I wrote? And what have the scriptures you quoted to do with interpreting the Bible? This whole post I created is about hell. I do not have to quote everything you wrote when my response was to assume you are correct but that would mean the plain meaning of Psalms 51; Matt 3:12; 10:28; 13:40-42; 18:8-9; 25:46; John 3:16; and, 2 Thess 1:9-10 all teach that the wicked are killed or destroyed by God. If no interpretation is needed (assuming you are correct so I am not arguing with you about what you say on interpreting the Bible) then option two in my post above has the most Scriptural evidence for it. I am not going to argue here about hermeneutics when my post is about hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrenJClark Posted February 15, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 85 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 13 hours ago, Stu of Whoville said: Do you believe that death is not eternal (or maybe a better word would be final)? I don't understand that. How can death (or at least judgment) not be final. Hebrews 9:27 would seem to indicate that death is the final word on a person's life. Job 14:5, Ecclesiastes 9:5, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, John 3:36, Romans 6:23 all give relevant testimony. While true that there is a resurrection of the righteous, it is also true that once the final judgment has been made there will be no resurrection for the wicked. They either go to eternal torment or to the dustbin of the universe where the soul is destroyed. Whichever is true, there is no coming back from it. I am a conditionalist so I am not saying that the wicked will not be dead permanently once judged by God and thrown into Gehenna (Matt 10:28). I personally would not use the term eternal death because people have a habit of reading the word eternal and assuming an ongoing state of dying is in view. If the Bible mentioned it explicitly then I would have to address it and use it. If not then I am not going to use that exact term even though I am sure you and I agree on what it means - people will be dead forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts