Heaven when

[iamlamad]

11 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

As far as Lazarus (Elezar) is concerned, Yeshua` explained this to His disciples:

John 11:1-15 (KJV)

1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.) 3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying,

"Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick."

4 When Jesus heard that, he said,

***"This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby."*** 

5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. 6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was. 
7 Then after that saith he to his disciples,

"Let us go into Judaea again."

8 His disciples say unto him,

"Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?"

9 Jesus answered,

"Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. 10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him."

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them,

"Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."

12 Then said his disciples,

"Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well."

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly,

"Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him."

Do you understand? This has nothing to do with "second chances." It has EVERYTHING to do with "the glory of God and that the Son of God might be glorified by it!"

I HIGHLY DOUBT (and with GOOD reason) that these so-called "resurrections" have the same purpose.

 

I've taken the time to listen to the interview that Sid Roth had with Gary Wood. The man is a flim-flam man. This incident happened on December 23, 1966, and he described rising up out of his body into a funnel-shaped cloud, engulfed by a "tranquil light, not as bright as the studio lights."

He talked about seeing "a golden satellite" and "walls made of solid jaspers, that's DIAMONDS!" he emphasized.

He made the claim that it was "2.7 cubic billion miles at its circumference." He's obviously no mathematician. First, he said this backwards; it should be "2.7 billion cubic miles." However, "CUBIC miles" is a measure of VOLUME, not distance! Therefore, it has NOTHING to do with "its circumference!"

He also claimed that it was 780,000 stories high and had enough room for a "hundred thousand million people!" That translates to...

100 x 1,000 x 1,000,000 = 100,000,000,000 or 100 billion people. That's only a tenth of a trillion people!

He said that his own mansion was a southern-style ranchhouse with a fence and marble columns. He described three buckets of paint sitting in his livingroom that created floral arrangements when thrown against the wall! ( WHAT?????!!!)

He talked about how "pure solid gold" doesn't have "the normal impurities that makes gold yellow and is transparent."

He talked about how heaven had this library where angels will wipe out deeds with a cloth from a person's book!

He talked about a room that contained body parts as SPARE PARTS! That way, when a miracle of a restored limb would be performed, the parts would be ready! (Again,  WHAT????!!!!!)

He talked about hearing new songs before they were given to men to write down, and that they were floating down to them as "notes floating through the air!" He talked about hearing these songs as "trees were clapping their hands and flowers with faces were singing!" (This man watched too many old Disney cartoons!)

No, this man just wanted his 15 minutes of fame; that's all.

The same is true for Nathan Wheeler. (I watched him, as well, since his "testimony" was next.)

These men are glory seekers, but not for GOD'S glory but their own.

There's much more to say, but I don't have the stomach for it tonight.

Listen, ANY TIME the dead wake up due to prayer, GOD GETS GLORY!  He had x-ray proof from doctors: his top two vertebrates in his neck were broke. His voice box was crushed, and his vocal cords cut in half. The doctors said He would never speak. They said no one can live with the top two joints in the neck broken.  Well, he lived and he spoke. 

Another person who went to heaven said there were flowers (I think roses) embedded inside his floor.  

Did you ever wonder just how big the throne room must be? The entire bride of Christ was seen in the throne room, in Rev. 7. That could have been several  billions: 50 generations or so of believers!

The spare parts were without a doubt a VISUAL AID used by God to show people He is ready and willing to heal  - yes - even restore body parts.  AT Azuza street in California, quite a few people saw an arm grow out from the socket into a full arm and hand with finger nails! 

You can and will think what you want. Gary is now in heaven. He could care less what you think. 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Listen, ANY TIME the dead wake up due to prayer, GOD GETS GLORY!  He had x-ray proof from doctors: his top two vertebrates (vertebrae) in his neck were broke. His voice box was crushed, and his vocal cords cut in half. The doctors said He would never speak. They said no one can live with the top two joints in the neck broken.  Well, he lived and he spoke. 

Another person who went to heaven said there were flowers (I think roses) embedded inside his floor.  

Did you ever wonder just how big the throne room must be? The entire bride of Christ was seen in the throne room, in Rev. 7. That could have been several  billions: 50 generations or so of believers!

The spare parts were without a doubt a VISUAL AID used by God to show people He is ready and willing to heal  - yes - even restore body parts.  AT Azuza street in California, quite a few people saw an arm grow out from the socket into a full arm and hand with finger nails! 

You can and will think what you want. Gary is now in heaven. He could care less what you think. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Why didn't he wake up this time, too? Didn't anyone pray for him, like his sister did?

I didn't say that miracles don't happen; I said that he was a glory-seeker for claiming he went to heaven and came back to tell about it!

MIRACLES ARE TEMPORARY FIXES AT BEST!!! 

HOWEVER, in the TRUE Resurrection (in which Paul named THREE), we shall be resurrected permanently!

We can have flowers embedded in our floors today! All it takes is a clear plastic that hardens after the flowers are put inside the soft, hot plastic. Think of the more common application of the coating in garage floors where they sprinkle gold flecks in the coating! It's the same sort of procedure. Once the coating hardens, cars can drive over the floor and nothing will harm the gold flecks in the coating.

Now, you said, "Did you ever wonder just how big the throne room must be? The entire bride of Christ was seen in the throne room, in Rev. 7. That could have been several  billions: 50 generations or so of believers!"

Did you ever stop to think about the other billions of people who will trust in THEIR Messiah, too? Do you REALLY think that "Christians" have the monopoly on trusting in God?!!! Don't you yet realize that the New Covenant was to the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL???!!! Gentiles were merely ADDED INTO them in the First Century A.D.! How is it then that this "entire bride" of the JEWISH MESSIAH, could be a mere "50 generations or so of believers"? (And, I get it; 50 generations x 40 years / generation = 2000 years. What about the OTHER 4000 years?) Don't you WANT to meet Avraham? Don't you WANT to see David and Jonathan together again? Don't you WANT to meet Eliyahu (Elijah) or Elisha or Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) or Daniel or Yechezk'el (Ezekiel)? What good is Hebrews 11 anyway?

YOU say, "Gary is now in heaven"; show me where this "heaven" is. Prove to me that there is some "immaterial part of a man called a 'soul' (or a 'spirit')" that goes to this "heaven!" I say that this notion is just a form of neo-Platonism that was adopted in the late 100s and early 200s A.D. by Christians who needed some continuity in death and had a fascination for Greek philosophy and its pagan mythology. I say Gary is in the grave awaiting the Resurrection, just like everyone else is.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Retrobyter

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Why didn't he wake up this time, too? Didn't anyone pray for him, like his sister did?

I didn't say that miracles don't happen; I said that he was a glory-seeker for claiming he went to heaven and came back to tell about it!

MIRACLES ARE TEMPORARY FIXES AT BEST!!! 

HOWEVER, in the TRUE Resurrection (in which Paul named THREE), we shall be resurrected permanently!

We can have flowers embedded in our floors today! All it takes is a clear plastic that hardens after the flowers are put inside the soft, hot plastic. Think of the more common application of the coating in garage floors where they sprinkle gold flecks in the coating! It's the same sort of procedure. Once the coating hardens, cars can drive over the floor and nothing will harm the gold flecks in the coating.

Now, you said, "Did you ever wonder just how big the throne room must be? The entire bride of Christ was seen in the throne room, in Rev. 7. That could have been several  billions: 50 generations or so of believers!"

Did you ever stop to think about the other billions of people who will trust in THEIR Messiah, too? Do you REALLY think that "Christians" have the monopoly on trusting in God?!!! Don't you yet realize that the New Covenant was to the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL???!!! Gentiles were merely ADDED INTO them in the First Century A.D.! How is it then that this "entire bride" of the JEWISH MESSIAH, could be a mere "50 generations or so of believers"? (And, I get it; 50 generations x 40 years / generation = 2000 years. What about the OTHER 4000 years?) Don't you WANT to meet Avraham? Don't you WANT to see David and Jonathan together again? Don't you WANT to meet Eliyahu (Elijah) or Elisha or Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) or Daniel or Yechezk'el (Ezekiel)? What good is Hebrews 11 anyway?

YOU say, "Gary is now in heaven"; show me where this "heaven" is. Prove to me that there is some "immaterial part of a man called a 'soul' (or a 'spirit')" that goes to this "heaven!" I say that this notion is just a form of neo-Platonism that was adopted in the late 100s and early 200s A.D. by Christians who needed some continuity in death and had a fascination for Greek philosophy and its pagan mythology. I say Gary is in the grave awaiting the Resurrection, just like everyone else is.

There is no verse that shows us both the Old Testament saints and the church both in the throne room at the same time; but this is not saying it will not happen! It is a very BIG room! 

Look: you can disbelieve anything. I really don't care. The church in general believes in a real heaven. I believe in a real heaven. I know there is a temple there. AFter all, Isaiah said "His train filled the temple! Why then do you find it so hard to believe what most of the church takes for granted?

I guess you just ignore Paul where he tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is no verse that shows us both the Old Testament saints and the church both in the throne room at the same time; but this is not saying it will not happen! It is a very BIG room! 

Look: you can disbelieve anything. I really don't care. The church in general believes in a real heaven. I believe in a real heaven. I know there is a temple there. AFter all, Isaiah said "His train filled the temple! Why then do you find it so hard to believe what most of the church takes for granted?

I guess you just ignore Paul where he tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Wouldn't it be easier to recognize that what "Christians" call "Heaven," is actually the New Jerusalem? Think about its description, "a city of pure gold, golden streets, pearly gates, foundations of precious stones," these all describe the CITY found in Revelation 21 and 22, not "Heaven!" 

The twelfth foundation is made of amethyst, and amethyst is purple in color, a royal color. I can see the ENTIRE twelfth foundation reserved for this "throne room" of God. Based on the descending order of distances for each higher foundation spaced evenly apart from the other foundations, I believe that the twelfth foundation will be 1,000 stadia x 1,000 stadia in area. That's 115 (114.989) miles x 115 (114.989) miles or 13,222.5 square miles. That would be a big enough room, don't you think?

The church in general believes in a "real heaven" because they don't know any better, and they've been LIED TO for the last two millennia!

Look, I believe in a real heaven, too, but I recognize that the English word "heaven," the Greek word "ouranos," and the Hebrew word "shaamayim" ALL mean the "sky" - the "atmosphere" - around this planet earth! That's VERY real!

And, I don't ignore what Paul said; I just believe that one closes his/her eyes in death and the next moment he/she opens them in the Resurrection, "present with the Lord!"

Regarding the quote from Isaiah 6:1, look it up! This is not a common word used for God's Temple (Baiyt YHWH = "House of-the-LORD")!

This is the word listed in Strong's Concordance as...

1964 heeykaal (hay-kawl'). Probably from yakol (in the sense of capacity); a large public building, such as a palace or temple
-- palace, temple.

Thus, "His train filled the PALACE!" This is how it can be reconciled with the New Jerusalem, when Yochanan (John) said,

Revelation 21:22 (KJV)

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 

However, he said NOTHING about there not being any "palace" in the City! To the contrary, Yeshua`s words in John 14:1-3 were translated into the KJV as...

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

And, those "mansions" (or very large "rooms") ARE in the New Jerusalem, Yeshua`s Father's house! It just all makes good sense that way.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Wouldn't it be easier to recognize that what "Christians" call "Heaven," is actually the New Jerusalem? Think about its description, "a city of pure gold, golden streets, pearly gates, foundations of precious stones," these all describe the CITY found in Revelation 21 and 22, not "Heaven!" 

The twelfth foundation is made of amethyst, and amethyst is purple in color, a royal color. I can see the ENTIRE twelfth foundation reserved for this "throne room" of God. Based on the descending order of distances for each higher foundation spaced evenly apart from the other foundations, I believe that the twelfth foundation will be 1,000 stadia x 1,000 stadia in area. That's 115 (114.989) miles x 115 (114.989) miles or 13,222.5 square miles. That would be a big enough room, don't you think?

The church in general believes in a "real heaven" because they don't know any better, and they've been LIED TO for the last two millennia!

Look, I believe in a real heaven, too, but I recognize that the English word "heaven," the Greek word "ouranos," and the Hebrew word "shaamayim" ALL mean the "sky" - the "atmosphere" - around this planet earth! That's VERY real!

And, I don't ignore what Paul said; I just believe that one closes his/her eyes in death and the next moment he/she opens them in the Resurrection, "present with the Lord!"

Regarding the quote from Isaiah 6:1, look it up! This is not a common word used for God's Temple (Baiyt YHWH = "House of-the-LORD")!

This is the word listed in Strong's Concordance as...

1964 heeykaal (hay-kawl'). Probably from yakol (in the sense of capacity); a large public building, such as a palace or temple
-- palace, temple.

Thus, "His train filled the PALACE!" This is how it can be reconciled with the New Jerusalem, when Yochanan (John) said,

Revelation 21:22 (KJV)

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 

However, he said NOTHING about there not being any "palace" in the City! To the contrary, Yeshua`s words in John 14:1-3 were translated into the KJV as...

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

And, those "mansions" (or very large "rooms") ARE in the New Jerusalem, Yeshua`s Father's house! It just all makes good sense that way.

WHERE is New Jerusalem right now?

[Still Alive]

On 2/14/2019 at 11:11 AM, plavious said:

Just my one little contribution to @Happy Felix question.  Many explicit verses declare that the resurrection will not occur until the end of the age when Christ returns.

In Daniel 12:13 an angel looks ahead to the resurrection as occurring at the end of the age: "But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

In John 6:40 Christ declares that the resurrection will happen on the last day: "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (See also John 6:39, 44, 54).

Paul specifies this meaning even further, stating in 1 Corinthians 15:23that we will be raised at the return of Christ: "Each [will be raised] in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming."

In 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 he also looks ahead to the resurrection as something that will occur not until Christ comes back: "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord."

All Christians will be glorified together
The fact that the resurrection will happen at the return of Christ has important implications: It means that glorification will be a corporate realityand not an individual experience that happens to each believer separately at death. All Christians will be raised into glory together. While we all lived at different periods of time, we all came to faith at different times, and we all will have died at different times (except for those who lived until Christ returns), it is an amazing thing that God has planned things such that our glorification will occur at the same time. What a great encouragement it is to know that the believers of the past are waiting for us to finish the race ourselves so that we can all experience the great joy of glorification togethe

Here's where I think the challenge comes in: We will all be in a different "reality". What if, in eternity, we are all, already there. That is, if linear time is part of this creation, but not part of that one, who's to say that when the day comes relative to our world, we can not all see any point in time in this world as though it was happening to us, "right now". i.e. every person ever to live - and even those not yet born - within this creation may be, from our "linear time" perspective, is already there. 

The bible doesn't say that's the case, and also does not say that is not the case. But there is evidence for the former (the fourth man in the furnace is believed to be Jesus).

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

WHERE is New Jerusalem right now?

Shalom, iamlamad.

In space and traveling toward the earth, and however fast it's going, it will arrive in a little over 1,000 years from now!

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

In space and traveling toward the earth, and however fast it's going, it will arrive in a little over 1,000 years from now!

We have the testimony of many people who have been to heaven, seen the Holy City. It is now on a planet. It is a planet quite like earth, but NO BUGS. No sin. Just great peace. There are cities on this planet.  There are billions of humans there now, in spirit form. On this planet is a palace, most impressive. Flowing out of this palace is the River of Life. Inside the palace is the throne of God, from which the river of life originates.  Many believers have been there and seen it, then returned to tell. They all tell a very similar story.  Two or three people tell of different layers, as if stories on a building - but each layer has rivers, fountains, water falls, flowers, etc. One man got to visit several of these layers. 

You can believe the city is on space. I will believe the city is on a planet in space. 

[Retrobyter]

On 5/13/2019 at 10:50 AM, Still Alive said:

Here's where I think the challenge comes in: We will all be in a different "reality". What if, in eternity, we are all, already there. That is, if linear time is part of this creation, but not part of that one, who's to say that when the day comes relative to our world, we can not all see any point in time in this world as though it was happening to us, "right now". i.e. every person ever to live - and even those not yet born - within this creation may be, from our "linear time" perspective, is already there. 

The bible doesn't say that's the case, and also does not say that is not the case. But there is evidence for the former (the fourth man in the furnace is believed to be Jesus).

Shalom, Still Alive.

"Who's to say"? GOD'S to say! When God created this earth and its inhabitants, He pronounced them ALL "VERY GOOD!" (Gen. 1:31.) When a PERFECT God declares His own Work, the Creation, "ALL 'VERY GOOD,'" then that Creation is also PERFECT! Why would God change PERFECTION?! That's how the Creation came to be IMPERFECT, when the man (as two) changed perfection by disobeying God!

No, what God created He doesn't "un-create!" His Creation was based upon His physical laws (also created for the physical frame) which we call the "Space-Mass-Time Continuum." That is, when mass moves through space, that movement is measured in what we call units of time. We say, "D = RT." or Distance equals Rate multiplied by Time, and "F = ma," or "Force equals mass multiplied by acceleration," where the "acceleration" is measured as "velocity per time" or "distance-per-time per time."

So, by creating space and creating mass, God created time.

The VERY COMMON MISTAKE is thinking that there will be no more time, popularized by the lyrics in several songs, such as "When the Roll Is Called Up Yonder." The mistake stems from the following verses in Revelation:

Revelation 10:5-6 (KJV)

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

However, this is because, as a people who relies heavily upon a "single-verse" theology mentality,  Christians fail to read on to the rest of the statement:

Revelation 10:7 (KJV)

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

By verifying this in the Greek text, we find that the word for "time" in verse 6 is "chronos." Strong's Greek Dictionary lists this word:

5550 chronos (khron'-os). Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from kairos, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from aioon, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay
-- + years old, season, space, (X often-)time(-s), (a) while.

And, some versions will so translate this way:

Revelation 10:5-7 (NIV)

5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said,

“There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

So, when reading the King James Version, one should read it this way:

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV)

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be DELAY no longer: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

There ARE some ABSOLUTES! It is NOT true that "everything is relative!"

So, it is also NOT true that "we will all be in different 'realities'," as opposed to our current "linear time perspective." "Linear time" will continue into "eternity." Thus, "eternity" is NOT "the ABSENCE of time," but ...

"eternity" is "time going on FOREVER!"

I believe, too, that this perspective comes from a MISUNDERSTANDING of Hebrews 12:22-24 that is COMMON among many believers.

Hebrews 12:18-24 (KJV)

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

In this English version, it SOUNDS LIKE we are already there because it is the present perfect tense in English, although today we would say "ye are coming" (present continuous) or "ye have come" (present perfect). When Yeshua` said "I am come that you might have life," He was saying "I have arrived that you might have life" (which would be the present perfect tense).

(More later...)

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I believe, too, that this perspective comes from a MISUNDERSTANDING of Hebrews 12:22-24 that is COMMON among many believers.

Hebrews 12:18-24 (KJV)

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

In this English version, it SOUNDS LIKE we are already there because it is the present perfect tense in English, although today we would say "ye are coming" (present continuous) or "ye have come" (present perfect). When Yeshua` said "I am come that you might have life," He was saying "I have arrived that you might have life" (which would be the present perfect tense).

Shalom, Still Alive.

Continuing on...

As I was saying, when Yeshua` said "I am come that you might have life," He was saying "I have arrived that you might have life" (which would be the present perfect tense). So, to use this example, verse 22 would be saying "ye have arrived unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...."

Just looking at the English, however, is not enough if one wants to get to the "nitty gritty" details. One must go back and look at the Greek. Here's verses 22 and 23 in Greek:

Pros Hebraious 12:22-23 (UBS Greek New Testament)

22 Alla proseleeluthate Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ierousaleem epouranioo, kai muriasin aggeloon, paneegurei 23 kai ekkleesia proototokoon apogegrammenoon en ouranois, kai Kritee Theoo pantoon, kai pneumasi dikaioon tetekeioomenoon,

22 Alla = 22 But
proseleeluthate = ye-have-been-approaching
Sioon = to-Tsiown; Zion
orei = mountain
kai = and/also
polei = city
Theou = of-God
zoontos, = living,
Ierousaleem = Yerushalayim; Jerusalem
epouranioo, = from-above-the-sky,
kai = and/also
muriasin = groups-of-ten-thousand
aggeloon, = messengers,
paneegurei = all-in-meeting-place-for-celebration
23 kai = 23 and/also
ekkleesia = a-called-out-(assembly)
proototokoon = of-firstborn
apogegrammenoon = having-been-enrolled
en = in
ouranois, [the]-skies,
kai = and/also
Kritee = to-[the]-Judge
Theoo = of-God; God's
pantoon, = of-all,
kai = and/also
pneumasi = to-winds
dikaioon = of-righteous-[ones]
tetekeioomenoon, = having-been-perfected/completed,

According to BibleHub (as one of many sources), the word "proseleeluthate," pronounced "pros-el-ay-LU-thah-teh," is the "perfect indicative active (2nd person plural)" of proserchomai which means "I am coming toward" or "I am approaching," which is ALREADY in what we call the "present continuous tense" even though the word in Greek is in the present tense! Therefore, the perfect indicative active is applied to the present continuous tense, and we get "you have been approaching."

It's a bit complicated, but it's not unmanageable.

This verse is NOT saying "we're already there"; it's saying "we're already IN THE PROCESS OF APPROACHING!"