Pacifism vs Just War Theory

[BeauJangles]

1 hour ago, theInquirer said:

It's impossible to lovingly hate someone, or to hatefully love someone. 

A very thought provoking enigmatic statement. I've yet to hear the term, and it does take one aback somewhat. But now that we've come to this point in the thread, do you still feel the same concerning non-participation of serving in the armed forces? As I recall, the Quakers also adhere to this. God bless!

Shalom, 

David/BeauJangles

[theInquirer]

16 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

A very thought provoking enigmatic statement. I've yet to hear the term, and it does take one aback somewhat. But now that we've come to this point in the thread, do you still feel the same concerning non-participation of serving in the armed forces? As I recall, the Quakers also adhere to this. God bless!

Shalom, 

David/BeauJangles

I guess you might say that my question comes down to: is it possible to love someone while killing them?  I heard about one veteran who said he loved his enemies even while he was killing them, but I'm not sure.  It's certainly a very difficult question, and I'd have to say that at this point I'm still undecided.

Thanks for your comment though

[Neighbor]

On 2/14/2019 at 5:05 PM, theInquirer said:

So I come from a pacifist Mennonite family, but for the past couple of years I personally have not been sure whether I ought to believe the pacifism view or the just war view. . . any advice?

Advice? Ah perhaps read Judges, read of Gideon.  Was the man  found trying to tend the wheat not on the threshing stones high in the open  winds and easily visible, but instead hiding deep on the winery floor where the grapes are crushed? He was terrified of the enemy pillaging and killing in the land. Yet God used him. How? And, for what good purpose of God?

Judges 6 and into 7, English Standard Version (ESV)

Midian Oppresses Israel

The people of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, and the Lordgave them into the hand of Midian seven years.  And the hand of Midian overpowered Israel, and because of Midian the people of Israel made for themselves the dens that are in the mountains and the caves and the strongholds. For whenever the Israelites planted crops, the Midianites and the Amalekites and the people of the East would come up against them. They would encamp against them and devour the produce of the land, as far as Gaza, and leave no sustenance in Israel and no sheep or ox or donkey.  For they would come up with their livestock and their tents; they would come like locusts in number—both they and their camels could not be counted—so that they laid waste the land as they came in.  And Israel was brought very low because of Midian. And the people of Israel cried out for help to the Lord.

 When the people of Israel cried out to the Lord on account of the Midianites, the Lord sent a prophet to the people of Israel. And he said to them, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: I led you up from Egypt and brought you out of the house of slavery.  And I delivered you from the hand of the Egyptians and from the hand of all who oppressed you, and drove them out before you and gave you their land.  And I said to you, ‘I am the Lord your God; you shall not fear the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.’ But you have not obeyed my voice.”

The Call of Gideon

 Now the angel of the Lord came and sat under the terebinth at Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress to hide it from the Midianites.  And the angel of the Lord appeared to him and said to him, “The Lord is with you, O mighty man of valor.”  And Gideon said to him, “Please, my lord, if the Lord is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all his wonderful deeds that our fathers recounted to us, saying, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt?’ But now the Lord has forsaken us and given us into the hand of Midian.”  And the Lord turned to him and said, “Go in this might of yours and save Israel from the hand of Midian; do not I send you?”  And he said to him, “Please, Lord, how can I save Israel? Behold, my clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.”  And the Lord said to him, “But I will be with you, and you shall strike the Midianites as one man.”  And he said to him, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, then show me a sign that it is you who speak with me. 18 Please do not depart from here until I come to you and bring out my present and set it before you.” And he said, “I will stay till you return.”

 So Gideon went into his house and prepared a young goat and unleavened cakes from an ephah of flour. The meat he put in a basket, and the broth he put in a pot, and brought them to him under the terebinth and presented them.  And the angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened cakes, and put them on this rock, and pour the broth over them.” And he did so.  Then the angel of the Lord reached out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unleavened cakes. And fire sprang up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened cakes. And the angel of the Lordvanished from his sight.  Then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the Lord. And Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord God! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.”  But the Lord said to him, “Peace be to you. Do not fear; you shall not die.”  Then Gideon built an altar there to the Lord and called it, The Lord Is Peace. To this day it still stands at Ophrah, which belongs to the Abiezrites.

 That night the Lord said to him, “Take your father's bull, and the second bull seven years old, and pull down the altar of Baal that your father has, and cut down the Asherah that is beside it  and build an altar to the Lord your God on the top of the stronghold here, with stones laid in due order. Then take the second bull and offer it as a burnt offering with the wood of the Asherah that you shall cut down.”  So Gideon took ten men of his servants and did as the Lord had told him. But because he was too afraid of his family and the men of the town to do it by day, he did it by night.

Gideon Destroys the Altar of Baal

 When the men of the town rose early in the morning, behold, the altar of Baal was broken down, and the Asherah beside it was cut down, and the second bull was offered on the altar that had been built.  And they said to one another, “Who has done this thing?” And after they had searched and inquired, they said, “Gideon the son of Joash has done this thing.”  Then the men of the town said to Joash, “Bring out your son, that he may die, for he has broken down the altar of Baal and cut down the Asherah beside it.”  But Joash said to all who stood against him, “Will you contend for Baal? Or will you save him? Whoever contends for him shall be put to death by morning. If he is a god, let him contend for himself, because his altar has been broken down.”  Therefore on that day Gideon was called Jerubbaal, that is to say, “Let Baal contend against him,” because he broke down his altar.

 Now all the Midianites and the Amalekites and the people of the East came together, and they crossed the Jordan and encamped in the Valley of Jezreel. But the Spirit of the Lord clothed Gideon, and he sounded the trumpet, and the Abiezrites were called out to follow him.  And he sent messengers throughout all Manasseh, and they too were called out to follow him. And he sent messengers to Asher, Zebulun, and Naphtali, and they went up to meet them.

The Sign of the Fleece

 Then Gideon said to God, “If you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said, behold, I am laying a fleece of wool on the threshing floor. If there is dew on the fleece alone, and it is dry on all the ground, then I shall know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said.”  And it was so. When he rose early next morning and squeezed the fleece, he wrung enough dew from the fleece to fill a bowl with water.  Then Gideon said to God, “Let not your anger burn against me; let me speak just once more. Please let me test just once more with the fleece. Please let it be dry on the fleece only, and on all the ground let there be dew.” And God did so that night; and it was dry on the fleece only, and on all the ground there was dew.

Gideon's Three Hundred Men

 Then Jerubbaal (that is, Gideon) and all the people who were with him rose early and encamped beside the spring of Harod. And the camp of Midian was north of them, by the hill of Moreh, in the valley.

 The Lord said to Gideon, “The people with you are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hand, lest Israel boast over me, saying, ‘My own hand has saved me.’ ....

[Billiards Ball]

On 2/14/2019 at 5:05 PM, theInquirer said:

So I come from a pacifist Mennonite family, but for the past couple of years I personally have not been sure whether I ought to believe the pacifism view or the just war view. . . any advice?

1) Hitler's Axis was slaughtering millions, millions more were scheduled for murder

2) In a just cause, millions fought to end the Axis

3) A Christian who is drafted to a just cause has an individual conscience burden to either fight, or serve as a medic/without bearing arms except for defense

4) A just war is usually drafted and fought by the State, not by lone Christians--thank God the State is here from God to sometimes put down unjust States

That's about it, really. Should we be pacifist regarding ISIS? A friend helps lead U.S. efforts to defeat ISIS and told me in person quite recently--we kill them all or they will kill us. Biblically, self-defense is justifiable.

[theInquirer]

12 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Advice? Ah perhaps read Judges, read of Gideon.  Was the man  found trying to tend the wheat not on the threshing stones high in the open  winds and easily visible, but instead hiding deep on the winery floor where the grapes are crushed? He was terrified of the enemy pillaging and killing in the land. Yet God used him. How? And, for what good purpose of God?

Judges 6 and into 7, English Standard Version (ESV)

Midian Oppresses Israel

The people of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, and the Lordgave them into the hand of Midian seven years.  And the hand of Midian overpowered Israel, and because of Midian the people of Israel made for themselves the dens that are in the mountains and the caves and the strongholds. For whenever the Israelites planted crops, the Midianites and the Amalekites and the people of the East would come up against them. They would encamp against them and devour the produce of the land, as far as Gaza, and leave no sustenance in Israel and no sheep or ox or donkey.  For they would come up with their livestock and their tents; they would come like locusts in number—both they and their camels could not be counted—so that they laid waste the land as they came in.  And Israel was brought very low because of Midian. And the people of Israel cried out for help to the Lord.

 When the people of Israel cried out to the Lord on account of the Midianites, the Lord sent a prophet to the people of Israel. And he said to them, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: I led you up from Egypt and brought you out of the house of slavery.  And I delivered you from the hand of the Egyptians and from the hand of all who oppressed you, and drove them out before you and gave you their land.  And I said to you, ‘I am the Lord your God; you shall not fear the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.’ But you have not obeyed my voice.”

The Call of Gideon

 Now the angel of the Lord came and sat under the terebinth at Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress to hide it from the Midianites.  And the angel of the Lord appeared to him and said to him, “The Lord is with you, O mighty man of valor.”  And Gideon said to him, “Please, my lord, if the Lord is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all his wonderful deeds that our fathers recounted to us, saying, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt?’ But now the Lord has forsaken us and given us into the hand of Midian.”  And the Lord turned to him and said, “Go in this might of yours and save Israel from the hand of Midian; do not I send you?”  And he said to him, “Please, Lord, how can I save Israel? Behold, my clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.”  And the Lord said to him, “But I will be with you, and you shall strike the Midianites as one man.”  And he said to him, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, then show me a sign that it is you who speak with me. 18 Please do not depart from here until I come to you and bring out my present and set it before you.” And he said, “I will stay till you return.”

 So Gideon went into his house and prepared a young goat and unleavened cakes from an ephah of flour. The meat he put in a basket, and the broth he put in a pot, and brought them to him under the terebinth and presented them.  And the angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened cakes, and put them on this rock, and pour the broth over them.” And he did so.  Then the angel of the Lord reached out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unleavened cakes. And fire sprang up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened cakes. And the angel of the Lordvanished from his sight.  Then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the Lord. And Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord God! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.”  But the Lord said to him, “Peace be to you. Do not fear; you shall not die.”  Then Gideon built an altar there to the Lord and called it, The Lord Is Peace. To this day it still stands at Ophrah, which belongs to the Abiezrites.

 That night the Lord said to him, “Take your father's bull, and the second bull seven years old, and pull down the altar of Baal that your father has, and cut down the Asherah that is beside it  and build an altar to the Lord your God on the top of the stronghold here, with stones laid in due order. Then take the second bull and offer it as a burnt offering with the wood of the Asherah that you shall cut down.”  So Gideon took ten men of his servants and did as the Lord had told him. But because he was too afraid of his family and the men of the town to do it by day, he did it by night.

Gideon Destroys the Altar of Baal

 When the men of the town rose early in the morning, behold, the altar of Baal was broken down, and the Asherah beside it was cut down, and the second bull was offered on the altar that had been built.  And they said to one another, “Who has done this thing?” And after they had searched and inquired, they said, “Gideon the son of Joash has done this thing.”  Then the men of the town said to Joash, “Bring out your son, that he may die, for he has broken down the altar of Baal and cut down the Asherah beside it.”  But Joash said to all who stood against him, “Will you contend for Baal? Or will you save him? Whoever contends for him shall be put to death by morning. If he is a god, let him contend for himself, because his altar has been broken down.”  Therefore on that day Gideon was called Jerubbaal, that is to say, “Let Baal contend against him,” because he broke down his altar.

 Now all the Midianites and the Amalekites and the people of the East came together, and they crossed the Jordan and encamped in the Valley of Jezreel. But the Spirit of the Lord clothed Gideon, and he sounded the trumpet, and the Abiezrites were called out to follow him.  And he sent messengers throughout all Manasseh, and they too were called out to follow him. And he sent messengers to Asher, Zebulun, and Naphtali, and they went up to meet them.

The Sign of the Fleece

 Then Gideon said to God, “If you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said, behold, I am laying a fleece of wool on the threshing floor. If there is dew on the fleece alone, and it is dry on all the ground, then I shall know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said.”  And it was so. When he rose early next morning and squeezed the fleece, he wrung enough dew from the fleece to fill a bowl with water.  Then Gideon said to God, “Let not your anger burn against me; let me speak just once more. Please let me test just once more with the fleece. Please let it be dry on the fleece only, and on all the ground let there be dew.” And God did so that night; and it was dry on the fleece only, and on all the ground there was dew.

Gideon's Three Hundred Men

 Then Jerubbaal (that is, Gideon) and all the people who were with him rose early and encamped beside the spring of Harod. And the camp of Midian was north of them, by the hill of Moreh, in the valley.

 The Lord said to Gideon, “The people with you are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hand, lest Israel boast over me, saying, ‘My own hand has saved me.’ ....

Well this is all fine and good, but that's in the Old Covenant. . . what about Matthew 5 where Jesus said "but I tell you, do not resist an evil person. . ."?  There is a distinction between the Law and the New Covenant. . .

[theInquirer]

9 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

1) Hitler's Axis was slaughtering millions, millions more were scheduled for murder

2) In a just cause, millions fought to end the Axis

3) A Christian who is drafted to a just cause has an individual conscience burden to either fight, or serve as a medic/without bearing arms except for defense

4) A just war is usually drafted and fought by the State, not by lone Christians--thank God the State is here from God to sometimes put down unjust States

That's about it, really. Should we be pacifist regarding ISIS? A friend helps lead U.S. efforts to defeat ISIS and told me in person quite recently--we kill them all or they will kill us. Biblically, self-defense is justifiable.

The thing is, all of the above is a pragmatic, utilitarian argument, not one from morals or principles set down in the Bible. . . where do we see it stated that we are to act according to whatever achieves the most "expedient" route?  Since when were we called to be "safe?"  

I'm more looking for moral principles in the Bible, not so much outcome arguments. . .

[Neighbor]

2 hours ago, theInquirer said:

Well this is all fine and good, but that's in the Old Covenant. . . what about Matthew 5 where Jesus said "but I tell you, do not resist an evil person. . ."?  There is a distinction between the Law and the New Covenant. . .

I guess see things quite differently.  There is time before the Law a new there will be time after the covenent in blood of Jesus as well, but there is no change in the precepts and principles and commands of God. My lord returns on a white horse of a military commander.

 

... "Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.  His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.  He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.  And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.  From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.  On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords."

[Billiards Ball]

14 hours ago, theInquirer said:

The thing is, all of the above is a pragmatic, utilitarian argument, not one from morals or principles set down in the Bible. . . where do we see it stated that we are to act according to whatever achieves the most "expedient" route?  Since when were we called to be "safe?"  

I'm more looking for moral principles in the Bible, not so much outcome arguments. . .

My argument stream is biblical:

1) Torah Law distincts self-defense as allowable from murder as a crime

2) Romans 14 and other passages teach following the government

3) Romans 14 is modified itself, following other passages, to follow conscience (I CAN fight in a just war if drafted, I CAN choose to serve as a medic/non-combatant, I CAN be a conscientious objector if legal or jailed if illegal, I DO follow my government but would NOT abort a child, even if the government proscribed forced abortions)

4) My conscience informs me/my faith informs me that fighting the Nazis was justified, indeed, born again leaders were convicted in plots to kill Hitler (!), but "whatever is not of faith is sin"

The four principles condense to "whatever isn't of faith is sin". If your conscience tells you not to fight, don't. That's biblical, not "pragmatic".

[JohnD]

On 2/14/2019 at 4:05 PM, theInquirer said:

So I come from a pacifist Mennonite family, but for the past couple of years I personally have not been sure whether I ought to believe the pacifism view or the just war view. . . any advice?

The Bible speaks to matters like this as personal choice.

What can you live with?

Which one will eat at you for doing or not doing?

All anyone else can do is give advice but in the end

you alone have to live with your choices.

God bless.

[Adstar]

On 2/15/2019 at 9:05 AM, theInquirer said:

So I come from a pacifist Mennonite family, but for the past couple of years I personally have not been sure whether I ought to believe the pacifism view or the just war view. . . any advice?

Read the sermon of Jesus on the mount.. The beattitudes.. Matthew chapters 5 , 6 and 7 and believe it..   Thats the best advice you can recieve..