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Mid Trib rapture anyone?

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This might be long, but I hope it is interesting enough to not abandon.I want to go on record and say I am not advocating a mid Trib rapture.....but rather am just asking questions to see the pros and cons for such doctrine. Here is what I’m thinking:

1. I don’t really know if the four horsemen have ridden or not, and I really don’t know if the AC is the rider on the white horse and begins the releasing of the seals. In addition,  I don’t really know if the seals begin right when Daniels 70th week begins. I see support for both positions (already ridden or future).

2. I feel much stronger in my belief that the rapture occurs around the 6th seal and this rapture is represented in the Bible in Rev 7:9-17.  But I still am foggy as to WHEN the 6th seal occurs in relation to Daniels 70th week.

3. I have held the belief that the rapture occurrs at the 6th seal and for a long time “assumed” this was released BEFORE the 70th week commences, which means before the covenant being confirmed.  HOWEVER, due to my latest learning, I now believe that maybe the rapture is close to the midpoint of the week (3.5 years) solely based on my exegesis and interpretation  of Revelation 12:5.  I now see the man-child as having a duo meaning- Christ and the Church!  Therefore, I am very open to hearing what you think about a possible MID TRIB RAPTURE. 

4. I’m not interested in reading about the POST TRIB RAPTURE because I’ve read enough and find it wanting, and don’t even want to discuss this, so please no post Trib talk on this thread. I’ve studied the PRE WRATH position and agree the rapture occurs around the 6th seal but do not agree in the timing Rosenthal and Van Kampen put forth...around two years after the abomination of desolation. Im okay with pre weathers coming on this thread to share their thoughts and show me why the 6th seal cannot be released at the mid point. 

5. So, here is what I’m interested  in reading your feedback with Bible support of course: can the rapture occur either shortly before or shortly after the abomination of desolation?  Jesus did say, “when you see the abomination of desolation, run....”. I’m not 100% sure he is only talking to Jews because he believes the Christians will be gone by this time. So I’m open to discuss this...is it possible the rapture could occur immediately after this event?  Or is it possible it could occur immediately before this event.  Because I do believe the raptured and resurrected Saints are shown in Rev 7:9-17, when John says to the angel, who are these people, the reply is, “they came out of the great tribulation.”  This to me can mean one of two things....came out so as not to experience at all, or came out while in it. If we are in it, I feel confident it is before the trumpet and bowl judgments because the 7th seal follows the 6th seal and there is a time of silence followed by the 7 trumpet judgments. 

6. I believe The Day of the Lord (DOTL) is God’s wrath=trumpets and bowls, and  would then begin immediately after the rapture. When Rev 6:17 says “for the great day of their wrath has come” I believe this is when the day of the lord begins...at the 7th seal. 

7. I’m not sold on the belief that the 70th week is only a time of Jacobs trouble and thus EXCLUSIVELY for Jews. I don’t see why the Church can’t be here as well for a while and there is a partial overlap. There always has been an overlap, right?  So this argument to support a pre Trib rapture doesn’t hold a lot of weight for me. It holds a little, but not a lot. 

8. I believe all the precursors for the DOTL to commence are all met as well with a Mid Trib position: 

a. Elijah comes first- if Elijah was John the Baptizer during Jesus’day, I guess he did come before DOTL. (Malachi 4)

b. The AC is revealed first (revealing could either be when the covenant is  confirmed or at the AOD, either way, that precedes the DOTL); 2 Thess 2

c. The apostasy comes first (falling away of the Church precedes DOTL during the first half of the week); 2 Thess 2

d. Heavenly wonders, blood red moon, etc precede DOTL (6th seal precedes DOTL); Joel 2

in addition, pursuant to 1 Thess 5 the DOTL “will come like a thief in the night while the people are saying “peace and safety”” so I’m assuming after the covenant is confirmed, there will be some kind of peace treaty that allows for Jews to rebuild their temple. There should be peace in the Middle East for some 3 years following this treaty....then BOOM! 

Conclusion: So, unless you think this line of thinking has merit, please tell me why the 6th seal can’t be released at the mid point of the week, shortly before or after? I’m all ears and will respect your input. Again, my purpose is not to win people to my way of thinking, but rather to help me think out other perspectives that I am now considering to see if my present belief (pre Trib) is still the best theory out there. Thank you my brothers and sisters in Christ.  Spock 

Edited by Spock

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3 hours ago, Spock said:

This might be long, but I hope it is interesting enough to not abandon.I want to go on record and say I am not advocating a mid Trib rapture.....but rather am just asking questions to see the pros and cons for such doctrine. Here is what I’m thinking:

1. I don’t really know if the four horsemen have ridden or not, and I really don’t know if the AC is the rider on the white horse and begins the releasing of the seals. In addition,  I don’t really know if the seals begin right when Daniels 70th week begins. I see support for both positions (already ridden or future).

2. I feel much stronger in my belief that the rapture occurs around the 6th seal and this rapture is represented in the Bible in Rev 7:9-17.  But I still am foggy as to WHEN the 6th seal occurs in relation to Daniels 70th week.

3. I presently believe the 6th seal is released BEFORE the 70th week commences, which means before the covenant being confirmed, but I’m not closed to still studying other thoughts. In particular the MID TRIB RAPTURE PERSPECTIVE. 

4. I’m not interested in reading about the POST TRIB RAPTURE because I’ve read enough and find it wanting, and don’t even want to discuss this, so please no post Trib talk on this thread. I’ve studied the PRE WRATH position and agree the rapture occurs around the 6th seal but do not agree in the timing Rosenthal and Van Kampen put forth...around two years after the abomination of desolation. Im okay with pre weathers coming on this thread to share their thoughts and show me why the 6th seal cannot be released at the mid point. 

5. So, here is what I’m interested  in reading your feedback with Bible support of course: can the rapture occur either shortly before or shortly after the abomination of desolation?  Jesus did say, “when you see the abomination of desolation, run....”. I’m not 100% sure he is only talking to Jews because he believes the Christians will be gone by this time. So I’m open to discuss this...is it possible the rapture could occur immediately after this event?  Or is it possible it could occur immediately before this event.  Because I do believe the raptured and resurrected Saints are shown in Rev 7:9-17, when John says to the angel, who are these people, the reply is, “they came out of the great tribulation.”  This to me can mean one of two things....came out so as not to experience at all, or came out while in it. If we are in it, I feel confident it is before the trumpet and bowl judgments because the 7th seal follows the 6th seal and there is a time of silence followed by the 7 trumpet judgments. 

6. I believe The Day of the Lord (DOTL) is God’s wrath=trumpets and bowls, and  would then begin immediately after the rapture. When Rev 6:17 says “for the great day of their wrath has come” I believe this is when the day of the lord begins...right after 6th seal.

7. I’m not sold on the belief that the 70th week is only a time of Jacobs trouble and thus EXCLUSIVELY for Jews. I don’t see why the Church can’t be here as well for a while and there is a partial overlap. There always has been an overlap, right?  So this argument to support a pre Trib rapture doesn’t hold a lot of weight for me. It holds a little, but not a lot. 

8. I believe all the precursors for the DOTL to commence are all met as well with a Mid Trib position: 

a. Elijah comes first (two witnesses come in first half of the week before DOTL); Malachi 4

b. The AC is revealed first (revealing could either be when the covenant is  confirmed or at the AOD, either way, that precedes the DOTL); 2 Thess 2

c. The apostasy comes first (falling away of the Church precedes DOTL during the first half of the week); 2 Thess 2

d. Heavenly wonders, blood red moon, etc precede DOTL (6th seal precedes DOTL); Joel 2

in addition, pursuant to 1 Thess 5 the DOTL “will come like a thief in the night while the people are saying “peace and safety”” so I’m assuming after the covenant is confirmed, there will be some kind of peace treaty that allows for Jews to rebuild their temple. There should be peace in the Middle East for some 3 years following this treaty....then BOOM! 

Conclusion: So, unless you think this line of thinking has merit, please tell me why the 6th seal can’t be released at the mid point of the week, shortly before or after? I’m all ears and will respect your input. Again, my purpose is not to win people to my way of thinking, but rather to help me think out other perspectives that I am now considering to see if my present belief (pre Trib) is still the best theory out there. Thank you my brothers and sisters in Christ.  Spock 

Welcome back (Kotter, lol, ) Spock!  Though I hold to a rapture timing very similar to the prewrath position,  I would prefer the label as mid-wrath.  Not,  just to be different,  but because I believe the great tribulation has its (future) origins in God's wrath upon Israel, namely Jerusalem,  that escalates to a cup of trembling for the whole world,  Zech 12-14.

Many pre-wrath people stop just short of saying that the rapture happens AT the 6th seal,  which explains my similarity in views.  But I would like to point out something about the great multitude of Rev 7.  The mistake that many make is to assume that white robes equate to having received immortal,  eternal bodies.   But that is not true.  One only has to look at the 5th seal to see otherwise: 

Verse list:    
Rev 6:9-11 KJV    And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I think there is little doubt that these are Christian... slain for their testimony.   But their petition for revenge is put on hold,  and wait for their brethren.   We,  as Christian individuals,  are probably guilty of wronging a fellow brother, but we are still brothers in Christ.  God is not going to avenge brotherly faults,  while brother dwells among brother,  namely because of so many offences.   But our revenge will come only after the rapture; 

*[[2Th 1:6]] KJV* Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

*[[2Th 1:7]] KJV* And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Their revenge is postponed because their brethren were still dwelling on earth.   And yet they were wearing white robes.   And so are the great multitude found in Rev 7.  White robes are indicative of righteousness... imputed righteousness for those deemed faithful to Christ.   These 5th seal martyrs are seen beneath the throne of God,  where lies the sea of glass.   The overcomers of the beast (Rev 15:2) are also seen standing on this sea of glass,  in expectation of receiving a reward (having harps).  The multitude of Rev 7 are seen "before the throne" just as those in Rev 15:2.  The ones of the 5th seal are seen "under the altar".  The sea of glass (Rev 4) is seen as being "before the throne".  My point being,  that the abode of the righteous prior to receiving their eternal reward, is the sea of glass.  

As I have already alluded to,  the vengeance of the righteous will not begin until the righteous are removed via the rapture.   The days of vengeance will come when you find Jerusalem surrounded: 

Verse list:    
Luk 21:21-22 KJV    Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

So what do we find in Rev 8:1-6?  Pouring out/ answering the prayers of the saints.   And the sounding of the first trumpet! 

Blessings

The PuP 

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 I have been over this many times, and NO ONE has been able to prove a 7 year tribulation. The idea stems from a false interpretation of the 70th week of Daniel. Small details will trip up anyone trying to make sense of Revelation in the context of a 7 year tribulation. When you understand that there are ONLY 3.5 years left of the 70th week, then Revelation (and ALL other prophecy books in the Bible) will finally make sense. The so-called mid-trib is actually pre-trib and pre-wrath then becomes mid-trib and post-trib is well they may as well be Amillennialists.

 First, you already know that Jewish literature doesn't always flow chronologically. They will often state the general first, and then go into the specifics afterward.
A case in point is...
Genesis 1:1-13 (KJV)
 
The first verse is merely a synopsis of what is to follow, and verses 6-8 and verses 9-10 go into the details of how this was accomplished.
 
This also happens in Matt. 24 (prophecy revealed by Jesus) - He outlines out to the end first, then goes back and inserts details about the AoD and start of the Church Age before reaching the rapture, tribulation and 2nd coming.
 
The same thing happens in...
Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it DESOLATE, even until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 
 All those "ands" connect everything associated with the 70th week which begins in verse 26 (AFTER the 69th week ends). Verse 27 is NOT a separate sentence, but rather a continuation of verse 26.
Gabriel first stated the synopsis for the whole passage in verse 24; then, he went into more detail in verses 25-27. However, it happened again in 25-27: First, he stated the synopsis in verses 25-26 (which are the details for verse 24), and then, he went into more detail in 27. He made the statement, "after 62 Sevens shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself," and then showed how that would happen in verse 27.
IF the final Seven begins immediately after the end point of the 62 Sevens, as we assume the 62 Sevens did right after the first 7 Sevens, then the Messiah's death would be WITHIN the final Seven. Removing the cross to a point OUTSIDE of the "determined" 70 weeks would mean the cross cannot be used as part of its fulfillment. This is the one point everyone just seems to think is totally irrelevant. How can the 6 purposes for the 70 weeks be fulfilled without the cross?
 
Now, the "prince that shall come" CANNOT be the "antichrist." Here's why:
In English, we know that the object of the preposition cannot participate in the sentence as a subject or an object in the main thought of the sentence. Since it is not the subject of the sentence, then it cannot be the antecedent of the word "he." Now, if the "he" was part of the prepositional phrase in which the object of the preposition resides, THEN it could be its antecedent.
The same thing is basically true in Hebrew: In Hebrew, there is a construct called a "noun construct state" in which two nouns sitting back to back affect one another. The second noun modifies the first noun, but the first noun can be the subject or object in the sentence. The second noun cannot participate in the sentence's main structure.
The Hebrew of verses 26 and 27 (transliterated) is this:
Dani'el 9:26-27 Masoretic Text as found in PC Study Bible
26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt:
27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt
zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem:
The "`am naagiyd" are the two nouns back to back, and they translate to "[the] people of [the] prince." The first word "`am" ("people") can be a subject or an object in the sentence, but NOT "naagiyd!"
The sentence technically doesn't end in verse 26 but continues through verse 27. There are no nouns attached to the verbs in verse 27; therefore, the word "he" is supplied THREE TIMES in verse 27. To find the subject for the verbs, which would technically be the "antecedent" for the pronoun "he" in verse 27, one must go back to verse 26 to the word "Maashiyach."
Thus, it is the "Maashiyach" or "Messiah" who performs the verbs in verse 27:
27 And the Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week the sacrifice and the oblation are given cause to cease, but for the continued abominations it shall become DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
It's not the "anti-messiah"; it's the Messiah HIMSELF who confirms the (Davidic) covenant; it's the Messiah HIMSELF who "causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" (see Hebrews 10), and it's the Messiah HIMSELF who makes the city (and Daniel's people) desolate!
 
Now are ready to go into the calculations for the end of the 69th week/ start of the 70th week? Hint: it occurs at the baptism NOT the cross. 

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1 hour ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Now are ready to go into the calculations for the end of the 69th week/ start of the 70th week? Hint: it occurs at the baptism NOT the cross. 

I disagree.   When Daniel speaks of being "cut off", it is the word kawrath and used extensively for when a covenant is "made ".  The idea conveys cutting off of the past by cutting a sacrifice,  initiating a new future in the form of a covenant.  E.g,

Verse list:    
Dan 9:26 KJV    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be "cut off", but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Gen 15:18 KJV    In the same day the LORD "made" a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 21:27 KJV    And Abraham took sheep and oxen, and gave them unto Abimelech; and both of them "made" a covenant.
Gen 21:32 KJV    Thus they "made" a covenant at Beersheba: then Abimelech rose up, and Phichol the chief captain of his host, and they returned into the land of the Philistines.
Gen 26:28 KJV    And they said, We saw certainly that the LORD was with thee: and we said, Let there be now an oath betwixt us, even betwixt us and thee, and let us "make" a covenant with thee;
Gen 31:44 KJV    Now therefore come thou, let us "make" a covenant, I and thou; and let it be for a witness between me and thee.
Exo 23:32 KJV    Thou shalt "make" no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
Exo 24:8 KJV    And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath "made" with you concerning all these words.
Exo 34:10 KJV    And he said, Behold, I "make" a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
Exo 34:12 KJV    Take heed to thyself, lest thou "make" a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
Exo 34:15 KJV    Lest thou "make" a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
Deu 4:23 KJV    Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he "made" with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
Deu 5:2 KJV    The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 9:9 KJV    When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD "made" with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

Granted it is also translated as "cut off" as in Daniel 9:26, but we see a continuation of thought when the covenant is confirmed for one week.   What covenant is that? I would contend that it is the one that was cut at the end of the 69th week. 

Blessings

The PuP 

Edited by Da Puppers
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54 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I disagree.   When Daniel speaks of being "cut off", it is the word kawrath and used extensively for when a covenant is "made ".  The idea conveys cutting off of the past by cutting a sacrifice,  initiating a new future in the form of a covenant.  E.g,

Verse list:    
Dan 9:26 KJV    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be "cut off", but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Gen 15:18 KJV    In the same day the LORD "made" a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 21:27 KJV    And Abraham took sheep and oxen, and gave them unto Abimelech; and both of them "made" a covenant.
Gen 21:32 KJV    Thus they "made" a covenant at Beersheba: then Abimelech rose up, and Phichol the chief captain of his host, and they returned into the land of the Philistines.
Gen 26:28 KJV    And they said, We saw certainly that the LORD was with thee: and we said, Let there be now an oath betwixt us, even betwixt us and thee, and let us "make" a covenant with thee;
Gen 31:44 KJV    Now therefore come thou, let us "make" a covenant, I and thou; and let it be for a witness between me and thee.
Exo 23:32 KJV    Thou shalt "make" no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
Exo 24:8 KJV    And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath "made" with you concerning all these words.
Exo 34:10 KJV    And he said, Behold, I "make" a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
Exo 34:12 KJV    Take heed to thyself, lest thou "make" a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
Exo 34:15 KJV    Lest thou "make" a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
Deu 4:23 KJV    Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he "made" with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
Deu 5:2 KJV    The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 9:9 KJV    When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD "made" with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

Granted it is also translated as "cut off" as in Daniel 9:26, but we see a continuation of thought when the covenant is confirmed for one week.   What covenant is that? I would contend that it is the one that was cut at the end of the 69th week. 

Blessings

The PuP 

Thanks, I'll look into that. But, even if they are the same word, wouldn't that just give further evidence to what I am suggesting? The 70th week begins at the baptism which is the confirmation of the covenant with the Jews. Now, we get into something else when we think of the New Covenant to the entire world. Does it begin with the cross which occurs at the midway point of the 70th week (the Old Covenant being interrupted) or also at the baptism? Interesting

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54 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Thanks, I'll look into that. But, even if they are the same word, wouldn't that just give further evidence to what I am suggesting? The 70th week begins at the baptism which is the confirmation of the covenant with the Jews. Now, we get into something else when we think of the New Covenant to the entire world. Does it begin with the cross which occurs at the midway point of the 70th week (the Old Covenant being interrupted) or also at the baptism? Interesting

Hebrews says that it is the blood of Christ that brings redemption for transgressions committed under the old covenant, essentially initiating the new covenant: 

*[[Heb 9:14]] KJV* How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

*[[Heb 9:15]] KJV* And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

*[[Mat 26:28]] KJV* For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Blessings

The PuP 

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The wise virgins shall be taken alive to the Feast of the Lamb so the martyrs of the 5th seal opening cannot be the wise virgins.

We are going nowhere if we are left by the Bridegroom, we can only deny Lord Jesus to save our head or be faithful to face death sentence by the antichrist.

Isnt that clear enough what Jesus has told us about the parable of 10 virgins ? Foolish virgins left shall be martyed if they repent and dare.

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16 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Welcome back (Kotter, lol, ) Spock!  Though I hold to a rapture timing very similar to the prewrath position,  I would prefer the label as mid-wrath.  Not,  just to be different,  but because I believe the great tribulation has its (future) origins in God's wrath upon Israel, namely Jerusalem,  that escalates to a cup of trembling for the whole world,  Zech 12-14.

Many pre-wrath people stop just short of saying that the rapture happens AT the 6th seal,  which explains my similarity in views.  But I would like to point out something about the great multitude of Rev 7.  The mistake that many make is to assume that white robes equate to having received immortal,  eternal bodies.   But that is not true.  One only has to look at the 5th seal to see otherwise: 

Verse list:    
Rev 6:9-11 KJV    And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I think there is little doubt that these are Christian... slain for their testimony.   But their petition for revenge is put on hold,  and wait for their brethren.   We,  as Christian individuals,  are probably guilty of wronging a fellow brother, but we are still brothers in Christ.  God is not going to avenge brotherly faults,  while brother dwells among brother,  namely because of so many offences.   But our revenge will come only after the rapture; 

*[[2Th 1:6]] KJV* Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

*[[2Th 1:7]] KJV* And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Their revenge is postponed because their brethren were still dwelling on earth.   And yet they were wearing white robes.   And so are the great multitude found in Rev 7.  White robes are indicative of righteousness... imputed righteousness for those deemed faithful to Christ.   These 5th seal martyrs are seen beneath the throne of God,  where lies the sea of glass.   The overcomers of the beast (Rev 15:2) are also seen standing on this sea of glass,  in expectation of receiving a reward (having harps).  The multitude of Rev 7 are seen "before the throne" just as those in Rev 15:2.  The ones of the 5th seal are seen "under the altar".  The sea of glass (Rev 4) is seen as being "before the throne".  My point being,  that the abode of the righteous prior to receiving their eternal reward, is the sea of glass.  

As I have already alluded to,  the vengeance of the righteous will not begin until the righteous are removed via the rapture.   The days of vengeance will come when you find Jerusalem surrounded: 

Verse list:    
Luk 21:21-22 KJV    Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

So what do we find in Rev 8:1-6?  Pouring out/ answering the prayers of the saints.   And the sounding of the first trumpet! 

Blessings

The PuP 

 

Greetings Pup,

if you don’t mind, could you give me a point by point analysis of the points I’m making to support this theory.  I would like to know where you think it is faulty and thus not thenwill of God. Thanks.

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15 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

 I have been over this many times, and NO ONE has been able to prove a 7 year tribulation. The idea stems from a false interpretation of the 70th week of Daniel. Small details will trip up anyone trying to make sense of Revelation in the context of a 7 year tribulation. When you understand that there are ONLY 3.5 years left of the 70th week, then Revelation (and ALL other prophecy books in the Bible) will finally make sense. The so-called mid-trib is actually pre-trib and pre-wrath then becomes mid-trib and post-trib is well they may as well be Amillennialists.

 First, you already know that Jewish literature doesn't always flow chronologically. They will often state the general first, and then go into the specifics afterward.
A case in point is...
Genesis 1:1-13 (KJV)
 
The first verse is merely a synopsis of what is to follow, and verses 6-8 and verses 9-10 go into the details of how this was accomplished.
 
This also happens in Matt. 24 (prophecy revealed by Jesus) - He outlines out to the end first, then goes back and inserts details about the AoD and start of the Church Age before reaching the rapture, tribulation and 2nd coming.
 
The same thing happens in...
Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it DESOLATE, even until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 
 All those "ands" connect everything associated with the 70th week which begins in verse 26 (AFTER the 69th week ends). Verse 27 is NOT a separate sentence, but rather a continuation of verse 26.
Gabriel first stated the synopsis for the whole passage in verse 24; then, he went into more detail in verses 25-27. However, it happened again in 25-27: First, he stated the synopsis in verses 25-26 (which are the details for verse 24), and then, he went into more detail in 27. He made the statement, "after 62 Sevens shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself," and then showed how that would happen in verse 27.
IF the final Seven begins immediately after the end point of the 62 Sevens, as we assume the 62 Sevens did right after the first 7 Sevens, then the Messiah's death would be WITHIN the final Seven. Removing the cross to a point OUTSIDE of the "determined" 70 weeks would mean the cross cannot be used as part of its fulfillment. This is the one point everyone just seems to think is totally irrelevant. How can the 6 purposes for the 70 weeks be fulfilled without the cross?
 
Now, the "prince that shall come" CANNOT be the "antichrist." Here's why:
In English, we know that the object of the preposition cannot participate in the sentence as a subject or an object in the main thought of the sentence. Since it is not the subject of the sentence, then it cannot be the antecedent of the word "he." Now, if the "he" was part of the prepositional phrase in which the object of the preposition resides, THEN it could be its antecedent.
The same thing is basically true in Hebrew: In Hebrew, there is a construct called a "noun construct state" in which two nouns sitting back to back affect one another. The second noun modifies the first noun, but the first noun can be the subject or object in the sentence. The second noun cannot participate in the sentence's main structure.
The Hebrew of verses 26 and 27 (transliterated) is this:
Dani'el 9:26-27 Masoretic Text as found in PC Study Bible
26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt:
27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt
zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem:
The "`am naagiyd" are the two nouns back to back, and they translate to "[the] people of [the] prince." The first word "`am" ("people") can be a subject or an object in the sentence, but NOT "naagiyd!"
The sentence technically doesn't end in verse 26 but continues through verse 27. There are no nouns attached to the verbs in verse 27; therefore, the word "he" is supplied THREE TIMES in verse 27. To find the subject for the verbs, which would technically be the "antecedent" for the pronoun "he" in verse 27, one must go back to verse 26 to the word "Maashiyach."
Thus, it is the "Maashiyach" or "Messiah" who performs the verbs in verse 27:
27 And the Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week the sacrifice and the oblation are given cause to cease, but for the continued abominations it shall become DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
It's not the "anti-messiah"; it's the Messiah HIMSELF who confirms the (Davidic) covenant; it's the Messiah HIMSELF who "causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" (see Hebrews 10), and it's the Messiah HIMSELF who makes the city (and Daniel's people) desolate!
 
Now are ready to go into the calculations for the end of the 69th week/ start of the 70th week? Hint: it occurs at the baptism NOT the cross. 

Donkey,

thanks for responding, but would you mind critiquing my theory even assuming what you said....there is only 3.5 years left in prophecy....the great tribulation where the antichrist  has 42 months of power given to him. I assume you believe the two witnesses present for those same 42 months. 

Anyhow, let me know what you think of a rapture either immediately before the 3.5 commences or immediately after it commences.  

Let me know if you agree the trumpets and bowls are God’s wrath and thus the church will be gone before such occurs. Please read my original post and give me specific feedback on those points. 

I will be glad to discuss your 3.5 week remain8ng on the thread you started discussing that line of thinking. In fact, I think I already have added a thought or two, but will address it mor later. 

Thanks

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4 hours ago, Spock said:

Donkey,

thanks for responding, but would you mind critiquing my theory even assuming what you said....there is only 3.5 years left in prophecy....the great tribulation where the antichrist  has 42 months of power given to him. I assume you believe the two witnesses present for those same 42 months. 

Anyhow, let me know what you think of a rapture either immediately before the 3.5 commences or immediately after it commences.  

Let me know if you agree the trumpets and bowls are God’s wrath and thus the church will be gone before such occurs. Please read my original post and give me specific feedback on those points. 

I will be glad to discuss your 3.5 week remain8ng on the thread you started discussing that line of thinking. In fact, I think I already have added a thought or two, but will address it mor later. 

Thanks

Mr. Spock, (that sounds really strange - but cool)

I appreciate your open mind to this subject, it is actually very rare on sites like this.

Yes, all the events in Revelation are only given 3.5 years, so they all occur with in the same time frame.

The rapture on my outline occurs BEFORE the 3.5 years. It is tied to the 6th seal, the FIRST 2 trumpets, Rev. 12, Dan 12:1, Isa. 57:1, 1 Thess. 4:17, Matt 24:38 (parables thru -25:30), The church of Phil., Rev 7 (great multitude), Rev. 11 ("worthy" believers measured and accepted while the unworthy are left behind to trample the outer courts), & Rev 14:16.

 

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