Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[HAZARD]

The Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

 

Daniel’s Seventieth Week and the Tribulation. Dan. 9:24-27.

 

The Tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the seventieth week begins. And when the Antichrist rises at the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergoing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revised Rome who are dominated by the whore until the middle of the week. The Antichrist will make a seven years covenant with Israel assuring them protection in their continued establishment as a nation, Dan. 9:27.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism when it again dominates the nations of the old world and begins to murder all heretics as it has done in the past. Because Jews will not submit, there will be a widespread persecution of the Jews and “theywill be hated of all nations” during the time of “the beginning of sorrows” when the Antichrist will be endeavoring to conquer all these nations, Matt. 24:4-12.

Antichrist will need Jewish moral and financial support to help him rise over these nations, so he will make an alliance with them for seven years. Therefore, the time of the Tribulation is during the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, Dan. 9:27. It will end at the second Advent, Matt. 24:29-31.

 

"And the gospel must first be published among all nations."

 

WHEN WILL IT OCCURE.

 

Mark 13:33, Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

    

34, For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

    

35, Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

    

36, Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

    

37, And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

 

So when will it be? Lets forget the word "SOON."

 

Only the Father knows, and Jesus knows this much, Jesus commands us to be ever ready, for it can happen any time!

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Spock said:

Hi LA,

i hear what you are saying. I believe I read this line of thinking in David Lowe’s book, Earthquake Resurrection. I can’t say that when I read it I bought it lock stock and barrel. That’s not to say it can’t be right; rather it just didn’t sit well with me. (I didn’t shout out, “Yessssss!”) 

i agree, it could possibly fit....that the reason John did not see anyone on earth, in Heaven, or under the earth was BECAUSE JESUS WAS ASCENDING right at that moment, so he was in neither of those camps. I just have not been able to say Amen to that line of reasoning. 

As for the 24 elders identity, I have no comment....I prefer to read and process everyone’s thoughts. I’ve been frustrated enough over the years contemplating these dudes. Lol

great to hear from you again. I’ve always enjoyed reading your words and fellowshipping with you. You turned me on to Peter Goodgames thoughts/blog, and that has been such a blessing for me as well. 

Thanks,

spock

Come on, Spock! It fits better than any other theory!  

No, you missed it. To be worthy, it must be a man, NOT God, and NOT an angel. But it must be a MAN that has become the Redeemer 

"“Thou art worthy to take the book and to open the seals thereof; for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood"

I think we could add, a man that lived without sin and sacrificed His life. He HAD to live a sinless life to become the Redeemer, but He also had to conquer death. When Jesus WAS found, it was because He had just risen from the dead to conquer death. THAT is when He officially became the "Redeemer."  Before that, He was not qualified to take the book and open the seals. 

He ascended in Rev. 5:6.  He was found worthy in Rev. 5:5.  These two chapters show us the movement of time and ultimately the timing of the first seals.  I think Peter Goodgame nailed it! I learned this as God taught me, with no input from anyone. I later found that Peter Goodgame also agrees with me. 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, OneLight said:

 

I was only trying to point to the last trumpet.  Figure out when it will be blown and you have your answer.  If scripture tells us when, why focus elsewhere?

Yea, we would have the answer to when the 7th trumpet sounds - but it is complete MYTH that the rapture is at the 7th trumpet. Sorry, NO gathering, and NO coming there. 

Paul's "last trump" will be the last trump in the church age, and probably the last trump in that year's feast of trumpets. 

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

Greetings Spock and everyone else,

I know you (Spock) have read and maybe still are reading my string on the 3.5 year tribulation/ not 7. Some come to the conclusion that it really does not matter because there are so many differing views. But, looking at the 70th week as being fulfilled by the A/C just makes no sense at all. 

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Assuming this existing covenant is one of these 7 year EU agreements (this seems to be the best argument provided thus far), and a new temple is built and operational, the A/C puts a stop to the sacrifices and oblations 3.5 years later. Everyone says AMEN - right?

Okay... NOW look at the rest of the verse. The word "overspreading" means continual and "abominations" refers to the "anti-christ/Jesus rejecting" sacrifices and oblations (just like the ones for forty years after the cross). This verse says that the sacrifices and oblations are still going on AFTER they are caused to cease! Verse 27 is NOT a separate thought or vision, but rather a continuation and adding to information concerning Jesus.

Now, WHY does it matter?

Telling the world that the A/C will show up in Jerusalem 3.5 years AFTER the rapture.... (if you are wrong and I am right) means that people will see Jesus at His second coming and (because of your teachings) assume He is the A/C. 

Making this one degree move off the flight plan (pilot reference) and assuming there is 7 years in Revelation has led to ALL these nonsense theories attempting to squeeze 7 years into 3.5. 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Spock said:

Lots of good stuff again here,

i know many are expecting a rapture on the Feast of Trumpets but I wonder how the “no man knows the DAY or hour” plays into that.  I suppose Jesus could only be talking about UNBELIEVERS who live in darkness.  We are the children of light and those watching do have knowledge and should NOT BE SURPRISED. 

Again, the 7 days in the chamber after marriage certainly does seem symbolic to the 7 years of hiding. I agree, it is circumstantial evidence, but still evidence.  The Isaiah 26 passage seems to corroborate a 7 year waiting period as well, although I’m sure it is possible to infer a 3.5 waiting period instead.  In fact, this is part of the reason for me starting this thread. I was wondering about the possibility that if the DOTL is only 3.5 years and not 7, that the rapture might happen immediately before the DOTL commences. 

Having the rapture precede the DOTL by about 3.5 years is certainly doable but I was wondering if it needs be. My thinking is simply asking the following: 

a. Can the church still be present during the time of Jacobs trouble (week 70)? 

B. Is the removal of the church (restrainer) necessary for the PEACE TREATY TO GET SIGNED? 

C. Is it possible that during the time of PEACE AND SAFETY on earth (post peace treaty signing) there will NOT be any of God’s judgments.....seals and trumpets?  In other words, can the first half of week 70  (3.5 years) be seal and trumpet free? 

Your model has these answers:

a. No...time of Jacobs trouble is the entire week 70, and church MUST BE GONE.

B. YES...in order for the AC to rise up, church (restrainer) must be gone. AC rises up at peace treaty, not abomination of desolation.

c. YES...all seal and trumpet judgments occur in 2nd half of week 70, after the AOD. 

Im considering all of this now. Your model of putting all seals, trumpets, and bowls AFTER the AOD is obviously not the traditional model and has not been promoted by many. I can recall reading only one other article promoting such. I do remember being impressed at the time I read the article but did not go any further with it.....until now. 

One more question Rev Man for now: you said APOLLYON was the scarlet colored beast in Rev 17. Is this another Beast separate from the Beast of Rev 13, the antichrist?  Just want to make sure I am understanding the conclusions you are making  correctly. 

Thanks,

spock

Spock, why ask questions that are already answered? John tells us.

The rapture will come a moment before the Day of the Lord, so a moment before the 6th seal. Then chapter 7, where God MUST see the church safe in heaven and the 144,000 sealed for their safety. Then the 7th seal starts the 70th week. The trumpets come in the first half, and the vials in the second half. The week ends with the 7th vial.  Then Israel is attacked by many nations, and Jesus returns just in the nick of time, to destroy them. The church returns with Jesus. Revelation Man is mistaken at times.  The seals are BEFORE the 70th week. The trumpet judgments in the first half.  We must follow John's chronology, not make one up!

It is VERY possible that the world will not see the 7 year agreement or even hear about it - it might be done in secret. But the 7th seal will be opened when it is confirmed. The 7th trumpet will mark the time in heaven when the man if sin declares he is God, the abomination. 

The Beast of Rev. 13 is a man, but also an empire of seven nations. There were ten, but the Little Horn (Beast) takes out three, leaving seven, with him as the 8th king. When Jesus comes, the man will be taking and his kingdom turned to dust. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Greetings Spock and everyone else,

I know you (Spock) have read and maybe still are reading my string on the 3.5 year tribulation/ not 7. Some come to the conclusion that it really does not matter because there are so many differing views. But, looking at the 70th week as being fulfilled by the A/C just makes no sense at all. 

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Assuming this existing covenant is one of these 7 year EU agreements (this seems to be the best argument provided thus far), and a new temple is built and operational, the A/C puts a stop to the sacrifices and oblations 3.5 years later. Everyone says AMEN - right?

Okay... NOW look at the rest of the verse. The word "overspreading" means continual and "abominations" refers to the "anti-christ/Jesus rejecting" sacrifices and oblations (just like the ones for forty years after the cross). This verse says that the sacrifices and oblations are still going on AFTER they are caused to cease! Verse 27 is NOT a separate thought or vision, but rather a continuation and adding to information concerning Jesus.

Now, WHY does it matter?

Telling the world that the A/C will show up in Jerusalem 3.5 years AFTER the rapture.... (if you are wrong and I am right) means that people will see Jesus at His second coming and (because of your teachings) assume He is the A/C. 

Making this one degree move off the flight plan (pilot reference) and assuming there is 7 years in Revelation has led to ALL these nonsense theories attempting to squeeze 7 years into 3.5. 

No, you are trying to cram John's 7 years of "stuff" into 3.5 years. It does not work. 

[Spock]

1 hour ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Greetings Spock and everyone else,

I know you (Spock) have read and maybe still are reading my string on the 3.5 year tribulation/ not 7. Some come to the conclusion that it really does not matter because there are so many differing views. But, looking at the 70th week as being fulfilled by the A/C just makes no sense at all. 

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Assuming this existing covenant is one of these 7 year EU agreements (this seems to be the best argument provided thus far), and a new temple is built and operational, the A/C puts a stop to the sacrifices and oblations 3.5 years later. Everyone says AMEN - right?

Okay... NOW look at the rest of the verse. The word "overspreading" means continual and "abominations" refers to the "anti-christ/Jesus rejecting" sacrifices and oblations (just like the ones for forty years after the cross). This verse says that the sacrifices and oblations are still going on AFTER they are caused to cease! Verse 27 is NOT a separate thought or vision, but rather a continuation and adding to information concerning Jesus.

Now, WHY does it matter?

Telling the world that the A/C will show up in Jerusalem 3.5 years AFTER the rapture.... (if you are wrong and I am right) means that people will see Jesus at His second coming and (because of your teachings) assume He is the A/C. 

Making this one degree move off the flight plan (pilot reference) and assuming there is 7 years in Revelation has led to ALL these nonsense theories attempting to squeeze 7 years into 3.5. 

Hi Donkey,

up front I will tell you, verse 27, especially the second half is not easy for me to interpret. Even the commentaries confuse me. But when in trouble I look to the Bible to interpret the Bible. 

Thus, I interpret that verse using the following three sources:

1. Daniel 12:11

2. Matt 24:15

3. 2 Thess 2:4

All three of these verses are easier for me to interpret.  If so inclined, I would be interested in reading How you would interpret those 3  verses? 

Thanks,

spock

 

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

19 minutes ago, Spock said:

Hi Donkey,

up front I will tell you, verse 27, especially the second half is not easy for me to interpret. Even the commentaries confuse me. But when in trouble I look to the Bible to interpret the Bible. 

Thus, I interpret that verse using the following three sources:

1. Daniel 12:11

2. Matt 24:15

3. 2 Thess 2:4

All three of these verses are easier for me to interpret.  If so inclined, I would be interested in reading How you would interpret those 3  verses? 

Thanks,

spock

 

1

Dan. 12:11 says there will be 3.5 years (1290 days) AFTER the AoD (which I believe refers to 70AD) followed by an extra 45 days AFTER the 2nd coming. The bowl judgments are not poured out until AFTER Jesus returns. 

Matt 24:15 as I just said, refers to 70AD. The previous verses describe the events of the 40 years after the cross. 40 years is significant also. The entirety of the NT was written BEFORE 70AD and so we see references to it there, but it is absent in all other prophecy including Revelation. Surely, it would be mentioned if it were still viable. Either way, I have it occurring AFTER the cross and BEFORE the rapture. Also, it is very common to lay out a summary of events all the way to the end first, then backtrack and give more details. It is done in Daniel, also in Matt. The 15th verse starts with "therefore", and this signifies the change.

2 Thess 2:4

The word for temple should be examined. In the Bible it is almost always rendered as "house". But, since the cross, the temple has been obsolete. The house of God is within US, the believers. There is no temple except Jesus and His followers. For the A/C to "sit" in the temple, merely is stating that he is the judge or ruler over it. In this case, he is merely claiming to BE Jesus. All it is saying is "he is pretending to be the Messiah". A temple is not even necessary for him to do it, all he has to do is show up and make the declaration.

[OneLight]

13 hours ago, OneLight said:

 

I was only trying to point to the last trumpet.  Figure out when it will be blown and you have your answer.  If scripture tells us when, why focus elsewhere?

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Yea, we would have the answer to when the 7th trumpet sounds - but it is complete MYTH that the rapture is at the 7th trumpet. Sorry, NO gathering, and NO coming there. 

Paul's "last trump" will be the last trump in the church age, and probably the last trump in that year's feast of trumpets. 

 

Yeah, I've heard that from you before without ever showing scriptural evidence otherwise.  Where is scripture can we find Paul pointing to your claimed "last trump of the church age" as being what Paul was talking about?  Where in scripture does it even mention church age trumpets? 

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, Spock said:

Hi Marilyn,

just want you to know I may not respond to every post, but I am reading them all. Sometimes I just take in what is being said and don’t have any questions or rebuttal to add.....just pondering the words and processing. 

As for this post, you said, “why is it called “the tribulation” if there are no seals or trumpet judgments?  I’m actually not aware of the entire 7 years being called the tribulation. Can you show me scripture that says that. I am aware that the last 3.5 years is called TRIBULATION by Jesus in Matthew 24. But I know of nowhere where the entire week is called TRIBULATION.  I just assumed that is a pre Trib term to serve their interests. Lol

Hi Spock,

I see. Yes there are so many comments and some quite long. You do well to read them all and ponder. Thanks for that info.

So for `the tribulation.`

The time slot has been set by Jesus as just prior to His return, (to deliver Israel and judge the nations). Jesus specifically links it to the `Abomination of Desolation,` spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Daniel specifies this event to be fulfilled during the seven years of Gentile Dominion. (Dan. 9: 24 - 27)

`Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city.....Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week, (unit of seven years).` 

When the tribulation (7 years) starts, people are saying "Peace & Safety," and then `sudden destruction,` starting off small, (as pains on a pregnant woman) and then gradually intensify.   The `Abomination of Desolation` in the middle of the `week,` (seven years) marks the time of great tribulation. The labour pains of the tribulation, have greatly intensified.

Note in Matthew 24: 8 we read, `All these are the beginning of sorrows.`  ` Sorrows,` Gk. word `odin,` meaning a pang or throe esp, of childbirth.  So the Lord is saying that there will be wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes, and these are the beginning of sorrows, (esp. childbirth)(like pains upon a pregnant woman, Paul says) 

Thus we see the beginning of the tribulation, (time of sorrows like child birth) through to the Great tribulation with the A/D. Then the Lord says `after the tribulation of those days, (not just the great tribulation, but the (whole) tribulation of those days), the powers of heaven will be shaken and He will return with His mighty angels.

Hope that helps, Marilyn.