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Mid Trib rapture anyone?


Spock

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8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

There is only so much one can say on an issue, then it just gets to be a repetitive sort of butting heads. I hear the Holy Spirit also, but the bible is the Word of God or God's ESSENCE, He gives us our roadmap via the bible. We are told plainly that the 70th week starts and that in the middle of the week is when all the action starts. It's pretty simple really, people tend to overthink and over complicate the timing because they think that Revelation has to be in order, well go read Daniel, it is not in Chronological Order either.

There is no need for further "INSTRUCTION" when we already have instruction. Its clear everything starts in the Middle of the Week, Gods Wrath starts in the Middle of the Week. Not at the sixth seal. It goes against everything God stands for to start something out of sync. 

The mistake that is made is not understanding the Seals RELEASE the Judgments, it's not like the First Seal is opened and everything the Anti-Christ does happens in an instant, the First Four Seals are a RELEASE POINT of what he is going to do, its like me opening the Gates for the Horses at the Kentucky Derby, its not telling us anything about the Race, only about what is being RELEASED. The Race has to happen to get the story on full. 

So the First Seal releases a Conquering Warrior, then he goes forth Conquering for 3.5 years until Jesus arrives !! Its not like the First Seal happens and we have to wait for it to end, then the Second Seal is opened. You see, that is why the Seals are different from the Trumpet Judgments, the Seal Judgments RELEASE the Anti-Christ to go forth sowing his wicked ways without a WITHHOLDER voa the Holy Spirit stopping him. 

First Seal....................The Anti-Christ goes forth Conquering for 3.5 years until Jesus Returns.

Second Seal.................The Anti-Christ takes peace from the earth for 3.5 years until Jesus Returns

Third Seal...................The Anti-Christs wars bring starvation/famine to the earth, no doubt until Jesus Returns.

Fourth Seal.................The Anti-Christ of course kills many, so Death and Hades/Grave are in abundance until Jesus Returns.

Firth Seal.....................The Deaths that result from the Anti-Christ tyrannical rule. 

Sixth Seal....................The Lord God Announces His Wrath is open mankind. 

 

I still think no one gets the facts here, all of the Seals are basically opened simultaneously, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing............No one has to wait on each one to come to pass, thus the Sixth Seal is basically at the Midway Point, as are the other 5 Seals that are opened. So the whole argument about the Sixth Seal is a moot point to start with. They are all opened at basically the same time on earth. Then the 7th Seal is opened only after the Jews have reached the safety of the Petra/Bozrah area. 

The Anti-Christ then goes Forth for 3.5 years...............God's Judgment on earth lasts 3.5 years. God gives mankind the ruler their hearts desired. Then God starts pelting the Earth with more Judgments.

 

Greetings Rev Man,

You know I have a ton of respect and appreciation for you and your words.  You have been such a blessing to me. We hear what you are saying but put yourself in our shoes.....you say the HS has given this to you, Iamlamad says the HS has given this to him, and who knows who else has said, “the HS has revealed this to me” ....the point being, which is obvious, we, the audience can only go by the written word as our final authority.

if I am reading you right, I believe you are saying the trumpet and bowl judgments are being GENERALLY described by the seal judgments seeing they go forth the entire 3.5 years. So, the wars, famines, pestilence, etc that the 4 seals show are played out through the trumpet and bowl judgments.  Is this correct?  So they are not really separate judgments, rather incorporated through the trumpets and bowls, is this correct? If so, seal 4 says it only affects 1/4 of the earth. So are you saying the rule of the AC is only over 1/4 of the earth?  I know Joel Richardson would agree with this interpretation since he believes the AC rule is Islamic nations in the Mid East, not Europe. 

In addition, please address SPECIFICALLY how you see the 6th seal plays out?  WHEN 6:17 says, “for the great day of their wrath has come and who is able to stand?”  Please address this question clearly showing how it plays out in the 3.5 year timeline.  Thanks.

Your position does sound like a real possibility if you don’t believe the Seals are different from the trumpet and bowl judgments and you don’t believe Jesus opened the seals once he ascended into Heaven. The interpretation of Rev 5:6 can certainly lead one to this conclusion so I do not believe it is as black and white as you say that favors your interpretation. 

And don’t forget, there really is no specific written instruction regarding the timing of the rapture. We have been told it will precede God’s wrath but it looks to me according to your interpretation of how things play out, the wrath does not begin until after the AOD, which is the mid point of the week. So, to assume the rapture HAS TO PRECEDE the peace treaty may be a bit problematic. I know one can argue the church is not included in the time of Jacobs trouble, but some believe both can coexist simultaneously for a period, like maybe 3.5 years before any wrath is released.  

I think you have read  the arguments and evidence for why some believe the 6th seal and rapture go together. If you also believe the raptured Saints are shown in Rev 7:9-17, explain why this vision immediately follows the 6th seal?  Why didn’t God put chapter 7 BEFORE chapter 6 if the rapture precedes the seals?  He easily could have done that to make it easier for us to follow.  Do you believe that was merely coincidental? 

So, unfortunately, there are more than one interpretation that makes sense here.  We are merely discussing, asking questions, gathering facts, and trying to draw reasonable conclusions.  We all have the HS in us so we can only trust he will turn the light on when it is the right time for each of us personally. 

But never forget, we all are on the same team seeking the same answers. 

Spock

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MISPOST.........

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1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

MISPOST.........

Midpost.....hmm, I guess that means go look somewhere in the middle of this thread. So, all my questions will be answered there. Hmmmm

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3 hours ago, Spock said:

Greetings Rev Man,

You know I have a ton of respect and appreciation for you and your words.  You have been such a blessing to me. We hear what you are saying but put yourself in our shoes.....you say the HS has given this to you, Iamlamad says the HS has given this to him, and who knows who else has said, “the HS has revealed this to me” ....the point being, which is obvious, we, the audience can only go by the written word as our final authority.

Well for starters, you might want to reread my post, I say I hear from the Holy Spirit, but all my guidance comes from the Word of God as being my road map. I stated that on purpose, because God is not giving NEW DIRECTIONS via "written word" that comes to people. He nudges us in the Spirit forward via His Written Word. He doesn't dictate new things unto us that are exclusive unto "US ONLY" whenever you see that be very weary. Now things that have been locked up, have to start being revealed, thus some of those things of course are coming out fresh, but they must have a foundation in the word of God, which is why anything I do I lay the foundation via the word, not via revelation from God, because God only nudges us towards the truths that are in His word already. Whenever people like Joseph Smith {Mormons} start adding to the bible you know they are, IMHO, off the deep end.

Any man who isn't hearing from the Holy Spirit doesn't understand the concept of Christianity, it's not an audible voice. As per one says this and another says this, that is what the Holy Spirit is for, to guide us into all truth. I can hear a person for 5 minutes and know if they are of the Holy Spirit or not, most of the times. I can read posts and tell if someone understands the things of God or are confused by Satan. It is what it is, I don't call them out, but I just wont reply much to them. But that is on us, to be able to understand the difference via the Spirit. I only lay my foundation via the Written Word, just like the 1260, 1290 and 1335. I didn't just guess on that, I laid it out via the bible, just because people can't see that, well I can't change and won't change where God leads me because others don't see things, it's obvious to me what it is, because its a rational path, nothing else I have ever seen on those numbers in Daniel 12 are even rational, they speak about going into the 1000 year reign, and that never made one bit of sense at all. Everything is finished when Jesus returns.

3 hours ago, Spock said:

if I am reading you right, I believe you are saying the trumpet and bowl judgments are being GENERALLY described by the seal judgments seeing they go forth the entire 3.5 years. So, the wars, famines, pestilence, etc that the 4 seals show are played out through the trumpet and bowl judgments.  Is this correct?  So they are not really separate judgments, rather incorporated through the trumpets and bowls, is this correct? If so, seal 4 says it only affects 1/4 of the earth. So are you saying the rule of the AC is only over 1/4 of the earth?  I know Joel Richardson would agree with this interpretation since he believes the AC rule is Islamic nations in the Mid East, not Europe. 

 

Nope......................The Anti-Christ is RELEASED onto the world for 3.5 years. The Seal Judgments OVERLAP the Trumpet and Vial Judgments in that the Anti-Christ kills/conquers for 3.5 years, and God's Trumpet Judgments and Vial Judgments have SPECIFIC TARGETS and timetables. For instance the 1st Woe lasts for 5 months etc. etc. etc. The Seal Judgments are the Anti-Christ being given free reign, and God pelting mankind with supernatural Judgments, Jesus opens them all, thus they are all Gods Wrath, and the Seals are all opened in close proximity.

The 1/4 of mankind represents how any people he kills, that is why it speaks of THE GRAVE, it's not about Land. Likewise during the Sixth Seal the Angelic Army slays 1/3 of all mankind. It's obvious what it means in spite of some peoples obfuscation. I don't buy into anything Joel Richardson says, Islam will be wiped off the face of the Map. She is the Largest part of the Harlot {ALL FALSE RELIGION} of Rev. 17 and the Kings on league with the Beast kill her off !! This coming Anti-Christ demands to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD, so the Islamic hordes will of course resist, they BOMB for their god now, what do you think they will do if they are mandated to worship a man ? The Anti-Christ is going to be WISE {Understanding DARK SENTENCES means he understands riddles/conundrums} and thus he knows the Muslims will never kowtow to these demands, so what is he going to do ? He is going to destroy them from the get go. Islam, one way or another is wiped off the face of the earth, there is no room for Allah anymore via the Anti-Christ.

3 hours ago, Spock said:

 In addition, please address SPECIFICALLY how you see the 6th seal plays out?  WHEN 6:17 says, “for the great day of their wrath has come and who is able to stand?”  Please address this question clearly showing how it plays out in the 3.5 year timeline.  Thanks.

 

All Six of the Seals are basically opened at once, RELEASING the Anti-Christ to Go forth and Announcing God's Wrath is upon mankind. The 7th Seal is delayed to give the Jews time to get to their sage zone on Petra. 

3 hours ago, Spock said:

 Your position does sound like a real possibility if you don’t believe the Seals are different from the trumpet and bowl judgments and you don’t believe Jesus opened the seals once he ascended into Heaven. The interpretation of Rev 5:6 can certainly lead one to this conclusion so I do not believe it is as black and white as you say that favors your interpretation. 

 

I don't even worry about this, Jesus went to Heaven and offered the Sacrifice, came back for 40 days, then ascended to the throne where he resides today. The Seals will be opened at the Midway point of the Tribulation. 

3 hours ago, Spock said:

 And don’t forget, there really is no specific written instruction regarding the timing of the rapture. We have been told it will precede God’s wrath but it looks to me according to your interpretation of how things play out, the wrath does not begin until after the AOD, which is the mid point of the week. So, to assume the rapture HAS TO PRECEDE the peace treaty may be a bit problematic. I know one can argue the church is not included in the time of Jacobs trouble, but some believe both can coexist simultaneously for a period, like maybe 3.5 years before any wrath is released.  

 

We are shown about the Rapture in the bible, some get it, some don't or can't. The Christians all die, that is the Rapture. We are in Heaven for 7 years. That is why there is ONE WEEK left..............that is why the bible says Israel will be blind until the Gentiles time is fulfilled. God dealt with Israel, there was NO CHURCH, God then stops Israel's Judgment at 69 weeks and inserts the Church Age. Israel {Jacob's Troubles} has ONE WEEK left, and we don't understand the Church is TAKEN OUT with one week left ? Well, I see it, others seeing it or not is on them. But if I see fresh Crocodile droppings and a croc slide leading behind a rock, no one has to tell me where the Croc is at !! 

3 hours ago, Spock said:

 I think you have read  the arguments and evidence for why some believe the 6th seal and rapture go together. If you also believe the raptured Saints are shown in Rev 7:9-17, explain why this vision immediately follows the 6th seal?  Why didn’t God put chapter 7 BEFORE chapter 6 if the rapture precedes the seals?  He easily could have done that to make it easier for us to follow.  Do you believe that was merely coincidental? 

 

God thus shows the Church in Heaven on BOTH SIDES of the Seals.............telling us they are there for all 7 years !! That's the whole point. They are seen in Rev. 4, 5 and 7, IN HEAVEN, on each side of the Midway point or on each side of the Seals being opened.

 

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8 minutes ago, Spock said:

Midpost.....hmm, I guess that means go look somewhere in the middle of this thread. So, all my questions will be answered there. Hmmmm

I was supposed to be editing my above post but instead I quoted it..........So Mispost was correct in that instance.

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9 hours ago, Spock said:

 

If you also believe the raptured Saints are shown in Rev 7:9-17, explain why this vision immediately follows the 6th seal?  Why didn’t God put chapter 7 BEFORE chapter 6 if the rapture precedes the seals?  He easily could have done that to make it easier for us to follow.  Do you believe that was merely coincidental? 

Spock

Hi Spock,

You are such a gracious gentleman and it is a pleasure to read and hear God`s heart - But never forget, we all are on the same team seeking the same answers. 

I would like to present another view as to the Great multitude.

`After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands...These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation ...`  (Rev. 7: 9 & 14)

I believe God has described them -

1. Great multitude OF the nations, (Gentiles)etc. (The Body of Christ is `called OUT` of the nations.)

2. The Lamb is the Lord`s title in relation to purposes of Israel (their sacrifices)& the nations. (No where is the Lamb, (Capital L) in relation to the Body of Christ, as we never had sacrifices.)

3. The Palm branches indicate the Feast of Tabernacles, in the New Heavens and New Earth, God dwelling (by His Spirit) with the nations on the earth. (Rev. 20: 3 & 24) (The Body of Christ, however are told that they will rule with Christ on His own throne in the third heaven. Rev. 3: 21)

Thus I believe the great Multitude are the saved of the nations in the tribulation. That is why ch. 7 is a parenthesis to the judgments of the scroll. God always has His hand of mercy out, even amid the judgments. What a merciful God He is. This is such an encouragement for many will cry out to God in the famine, lack of water and intense heat.

Hope that gives you food for thought. Marilyn.

 

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The only two timing markers that we have for the rapture are:

  1. the last trumpet - 1 Corinthians 15:52
  2. the last day - this is reiterated 4x in John 6

If someone really wants to know the timing of the rapture, they should seek to understand the meaning of the last trumpet and the last day.

This may be of interest:

 

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4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The only two timing markers that we have for the rapture are:

  1. the last trumpet - 1 Corinthians 15:52
  2. the last day - this is reiterated 4x in John 6

If someone really wants to know the timing of the rapture, they should seek to understand the meaning of the last trumpet and the last day.

I think you have started a faulty argument!

Paul gives at least two more markers in 1 Thes. 5:

1. The Day of the Lord

2. God's wrath beginning. 

In Chapter 6: perhaps Jesus was talking to Jews about THEIR resurrection day, not the day of the rapture for the Gentile church. I believe the Old Testament saints will be raised on the last 24 hour day of the 70th week - at the 7th vial.  That would be the last 24 hours of their age.

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On 3/4/2019 at 5:30 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

You are such a gracious gentleman and it is a pleasure to read and hear God`s heart - But never forget, we all are on the same team seeking the same answers. 

I would like to present another view as to the Great multitude.

`After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands...These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation ...`  (Rev. 7: 9 & 14)

I believe God has described them -

1. Great multitude OF the nations, (Gentiles)etc. (The Body of Christ is `called OUT` of the nations.)

2. The Lamb is the Lord`s title in relation to purposes of Israel (their sacrifices)& the nations. (No where is the Lamb, (Capital L) in relation to the Body of Christ, as we never had sacrifices.)

3. The Palm branches indicate the Feast of Tabernacles, in the New Heavens and New Earth, God dwelling (by His Spirit) with the nations on the earth. (Rev. 20: 3 & 24) (The Body of Christ, however are told that they will rule with Christ on His own throne in the third heaven. Rev. 3: 21)

Thus I believe the great Multitude are the saved of the nations in the tribulation. That is why ch. 7 is a parenthesis to the judgments of the scroll. God always has His hand of mercy out, even amid the judgments. What a merciful God He is. This is such an encouragement for many will cry out to God in the famine, lack of water and intense heat.

Hope that gives you food for thought. Marilyn.

 

Well, this certainly was different.  Reading all the differences of opinions people have while interpretating God’s prophetic word causes me to marvel.  I hope the Lord is amused by our inability to be of ONE MIND, ONE VOICE regarding a “multitude” of doctrines, not even limited to prophecy. 

I guess it just wasn’t His will to make it that cut and dry (black and white).  And what to me is even more amusing is that Paul tells us God gives the Church TEACHERS who are gifted/blessed who often times teach erroneous doctrines or interpret the Word inaccurately.  This hits home for me because I am a teacher. Imagine if I taught my students erroneous information regarding the American Revolution or the Civil War. If parents got wind of it, how long do you think I would be a teacher there?  Yet, oh so often God’s teachers are being allowed to teach us (the body of Christ) wrong information.

Think about that..........excuse me for thinking out loud and this rant. This post just got me to thinking......I know, that could be a dangerous thing! 

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35 minutes ago, Spock said:

Well, this certainly was different.  Reading all the differences of opinions people have while interpretating God’s prophetic word causes me to marvel.  I hope the Lord is amused by our inability to be of ONE MIND, ONE VOICE regarding a “multitude” of doctrines, not even limited to prophecy. 

I guess it just wasn’t His will to make it that cut and dry (black and white).  And what to me is even more amusing is that Paul tells us God gives the Church TEACHERS who are gifted/blessed who often times teach erroneous doctrines or interpret the Word inaccurately.  This hits home for me because I am a teacher. Imagine if I taught my students erroneous information regarding the American Revolution or the Civil War. If parents got wind of it, how long do you think I would be a teacher there?  Yet, oh so often God’s teachers are being allowed to teach us (the body of Christ) wrong information.

Think about that..........excuse me for thinking out loud and this rant. This post just got me to thinking......I know, that could be a dangerous thing! 

Hi Spock,

So true bro. Now remember that the Apostle Paul, (by the Holy Spirit said -

`Therefore take heed to yourselves & to all the flock,.....For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you,....` (Acts 20: 29)

`Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.`  (Acts 20: 30)

 Perverse, Gk. Word `diastrepho` meaning to distort, misinterpret & corrupt.

God being omniscient, (all knowing) knows that errors will come in. However if we look at church history we can see that the Holy Spirit has been revealing truths, bringing clarity, for all the great truths - Salvation by faith, holy living, baptism in water, the infilling of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the ministry gifts of the ascended Lord, (and many of these in my life time), till we are at the final stage of the clarification of eschatological truths.

So it is that across the Body of Christ we find that those major truths are received and believed. And that is because the Holy Spirit spoke through teachers etc

Jesus said - `When the He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; ....` (John 16: 13)

So we are working through God`s word to see what the Holy Spirit is revealing concerning this LAST truth, God`s purposes in Christ, (eschatology - end times).

`...that we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive, but speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head - Christ.` (Eph. 4: 14 & 15)

 

Thus, can you look again at what I wrote on the Great multitude and show what is true from God`s word and what is error, please?

Marilyn.

 

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