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Mid Trib rapture anyone?


Spock

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38 minutes ago, Spock said:

Well, this certainly was different.  Reading all the differences of opinions people have while interpretating God’s prophetic word causes me to marvel.  I hope the Lord is amused by our inability to be of ONE MIND, ONE VOICE regarding a “multitude” of doctrines, not even limited to prophecy. 

I guess it just wasn’t His will to make it that cut and dry (black and white).  And what to me is even more amusing is that Paul tells us God gives the Church TEACHERS who are gifted/blessed who often times teach erroneous doctrines or interpret the Word inaccurately.  This hits home for me because I am a teacher. Imagine if I taught my students erroneous information regarding the American Revolution or the Civil War. If parents got wind of it, how long do you think I would be a teacher there?  Yet, oh so often God’s teachers are being allowed to teach us (the body of Christ) wrong information.

Think about that..........excuse me for thinking out loud and this rant. This post just got me to thinking......I know, that could be a dangerous thing! 

Being called in the office of the teacher certainly carries a large responsibility. I have often marveled at the many denominations, each saying they are right, but disagreeing with others that say they are right!  

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On 3/4/2019 at 4:30 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

You are such a gracious gentleman and it is a pleasure to read and hear God`s heart - But never forget, we all are on the same team seeking the same answers. 

I would like to present another view as to the Great multitude.

`After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands...These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation ...`  (Rev. 7: 9 & 14)

I believe God has described them -

1. Great multitude OF the nations, (Gentiles)etc. (The Body of Christ is `called OUT` of the nations.)

2. The Lamb is the Lord`s title in relation to purposes of Israel (their sacrifices)& the nations. (No where is the Lamb, (Capital L) in relation to the Body of Christ, as we never had sacrifices.)

3. The Palm branches indicate the Feast of Tabernacles, in the New Heavens and New Earth, God dwelling (by His Spirit) with the nations on the earth. (Rev. 20: 3 & 24) (The Body of Christ, however are told that they will rule with Christ on His own throne in the third heaven. Rev. 3: 21)

Thus I believe the great Multitude are the saved of the nations in the tribulation. That is why ch. 7 is a parenthesis to the judgments of the scroll. God always has His hand of mercy out, even amid the judgments. What a merciful God He is. This is such an encouragement for many will cry out to God in the famine, lack of water and intense heat.

Hope that gives you food for thought. Marilyn.

I understand, I just disagree. Have you ever been to a play where they close the curtain between "acts?"  What happens behind the curtain? They are rearranging the set so it will fit the next act.  Notice how John went straight through seals 1-6, one right after another. But went into some kind of intermission after the 6th seal. What is he doing? I think he is rearranging the set! You see, two events absolutely must take place in the mind of God before the 7th seal opens the 70th week of Daniel: First, the church MUST BE safely seen in heaven. Check! John saw the church in heaven - the great crowd too large to number. Second, the 144,000 MUST BE sealed for their protection. Once these two events have taken place, then John can open the 7th seal and start the 70th week. 

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I think you have started a faulty argument!

Paul gives at least two more markers in 1 Thes. 5:

1. The Day of the Lord

2. God's wrath beginning. 

In Chapter 6: perhaps Jesus was talking to Jews about THEIR resurrection day, not the day of the rapture for the Gentile church. I believe the Old Testament saints will be raised on the last 24 hour day of the 70th week - at the 7th vial.  That would be the last 24 hours of their age.

No, its not faulty.  I agree that our gathering together to Him takes place on the day of the Lord, and that the day of the Lord is a day of wrath, but those don't speak to timing.  If you'll notice, I said "timing markers."  Being the last of something indicates a place in a sequence, a relative timing. 

Last trumpet on the last day.  Explicitly stated.  Undeniable.

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51 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I understand, I just disagree. Have you ever been to a play where they close the curtain between "acts?"  What happens behind the curtain? They are rearranging the set so it will fit the next act.  Notice how John went straight through seals 1-6, one right after another. But went into some kind of intermission after the 6th seal. What is he doing? I think he is rearranging the set! You see, two events absolutely must take place in the mind of God before the 7th seal opens the 70th week of Daniel: First, the church MUST BE safely seen in heaven. Check! John saw the church in heaven - the great crowd too large to number. Second, the 144,000 MUST BE sealed for their protection. Once these two events have taken place, then John can open the 7th seal and start the 70th week. 

Hi iamlamad,

No scriptures again bro! You really need to address what someone has written and show where they are right or wrong. You just tend to say `I disagree,` and go off into your own opinion.

Marilyn.

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3 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

No, its not faulty.  I agree that our gathering together to Him takes place on the day of the Lord, and that the day of the Lord is a day of wrath, but those don't speak to timing.  If you'll notice, I said "timing markers."  Being the last of something indicates a place in a sequence, a relative timing. 

Last trumpet on the last day.  Explicitly stated.  Undeniable.

I think the start of the DAY is a timing marker: "TIME" goes from a time of peace and safety to suddenly being the start of THE DAY and of His wrath. It is easy to find this pace in John's narrative in Revelation.  Some imagine it is easy to find "the last trump" in Revelation! It is only imagination, not truth. No one has ever proved by scripture that the 7th trumpet in Revelation is Paul's last trump - and I doubt they ever will. 

I don't think there is a scripture anywhere that ties Paul's "last trump" to the "last day." That must be imagination too. Therefore NOT "undeniable."

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Just now, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

No scriptures again bro! You really need to address what someone has written and show where they are right or wrong. You just tend to say `I disagree,` and go off into your own opinion.

Marilyn.

I am SURE you know where these scriptures are! It is only that we read them differently. 

Can you come up with a good explanation of why john broke his line of discussion between the 6th and 7th seal? I have given my explanation. Perhaps you have a better one.

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22 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I don't think there is a scripture anywhere that ties Paul's "last trump" to the "last day." That must be imagination too. Therefore NOT "undeniable."

Read John 6.

I don't want to derail this thread so that's all I'm going to say about it.

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51 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I am SURE you know where these scriptures are! It is only that we read them differently. 

Can you come up with a good explanation of why john broke his line of discussion between the 6th and 7th seal? I have given my explanation. Perhaps you have a better one.

Hi iamlamad,

No, it is not that we read them differently, it is that we have not discussed the scriptures I quoted.

We read of the judgments that the Father has written in the scroll, and then we read of God`s mercy to Israel, (144, 000 priests) and the Great multitude. We read that they are OF the all the nations, tribes etc. (Rev. 7: 9) They are still OF those nations, however now they are `saved,` have their robes washed in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7: 14) They serve the Lord and `follow` obey Him. Their inheritance is ON the earth as God`s word says -

`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honour into it.` (Rev. 21: 24)

Thus we see the nation who are saved, are still nations, and they are on the earth. The Body of Christ is the Lord`s Body and will sit with Him on His own throne in the angelic realm.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

Look forward to discussing scripture with scripture. Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

So true bro. Now remember that the Apostle Paul, (by the Holy Spirit said -

`Therefore take heed to yourselves & to all the flock,.....For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you,....` (Acts 20: 29)

`Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.`  (Acts 20: 30)

 Perverse, Gk. Word `diastrepho` meaning to distort, misinterpret & corrupt.

God being omniscient, (all knowing) knows that errors will come in. However if we look at church history we can see that the Holy Spirit has been revealing truths, bringing clarity, for all the great truths - Salvation by faith, holy living, baptism in water, the infilling of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the ministry gifts of the ascended Lord, (and many of these in my life time), till we are at the final stage of the clarification of eschatological truths.

So it is that across the Body of Christ we find that those major truths are received and believed. And that is because the Holy Spirit spoke through teachers etc

Jesus said - `When the He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; ....` (John 16: 13)

So we are working through God`s word to see what the Holy Spirit is revealing concerning this LAST truth, God`s purposes in Christ, (eschatology - end times).

`...that we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive, but speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head - Christ.` (Eph. 4: 14 & 15)

 

Thus, can you look again at what I wrote on the Great multitude and show what is true from God`s word and what is error, please?

Marilyn.

 

I can’t say for sure it is error.....because imo it is all speculative.  It might be right, it might not be. I don’t believe it is right...when I read it, nothing inside me went YES, YES, YESSSSSSSSSS. 

Is that reliable......not to anyone but perhaps me, so I don’t blame you or anyone if you discard my rationale for not accepting it.  

Oh well......

im still trying to figure out if your contemporary interpretation of Daniel 7 is correct....

in fact, I think over the years there may be a few other “wow” moments you have given me, Marilyn when I have read your interpretation of a Bible passage. 

But you know what? I have The utmost respect and love for you because I absolutely know you have a mad love for God, His Word, and the Body of Christ. That’s really all I need to know...everything else you may or may not believe is secondary to me.  But, I don’t think I will ever be on your level of seeing things. You see things I just don’t see! 

Keep being you,

spock

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43 minutes ago, Spock said:

I can’t say for sure it is error.....because imo it is all speculative.  It might be right, it might not be. I don’t believe it is right...when I read it, nothing inside me went YES, YES, YESSSSSSSSSS. 

Is that reliable......not to anyone but perhaps me, so I don’t blame you or anyone if you discard my rationale for not accepting it.  

Oh well......

im still trying to figure out if your contemporary interpretation of Daniel 7 is correct....

in fact, I think over the years there may be a few other “wow” moments you have given me, Marilyn when I have read your interpretation of a Bible passage. 

But you know what? I have The utmost respect and love for you because I absolutely know you have a mad love for God, His Word, and the Body of Christ. That’s really all I need to know...everything else you may or may not believe is secondary to me.  But, I don’t think I will ever be on your level of seeing things. You see things I just don’t see! 

Keep being you,

spock

Hi Spock,

Thank you for such lovely words of encouragement dear bro. I see you as a man of God who is careful for what he would believe, and rightly so. Thus I believe there needs more details as to my comments and more discussion for understanding or pointing our error.

1. The Great Multitude OF the Nations are those who turn to God in the Great tribulation, (Rev. 7: 14). They are known as the nations and they are saved. Thus when we read in Rev. 21: 24 of the `nations of those who are saved` on the earth, then we can surely say that it is those of the nations who came out of the Great Tribulation. That is their inheritance, the New earth, while the Body of Christ, we know is in heaven, on the Lord`s own throne. (Rev. 3: 21)  

Any thoughts or questions so far?

Marilyn.

BTW `Speculative` is when something is not backed up by the appropriate scripture/s or no scripture. And that is what a discussion should bring out, whether the comment is true or in error.

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