Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[Spock]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Joel 2 gives us the SIGNS people would see BEFORE the 6th seal. The earthquake is an event OF the 6th seal.

Again in Joel 3, he gives us the sign people would see before Jesus returns, as shown in Rev. 19.

Truthfully, I was not looking for an earthquake in either place. Signs are to warn people of a soon coming event. If signs for an event is written in more than one place in scripture, not every part of that sign may written in every verse of mention.

There is something I am not sure about:

Rev. 6:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It is very possible that God's wrath does not start until the first trumpet judgment and the earthquake is a part of the sign of His wrath as much as the cosmic signs. It seems that the cosmic signs follow the earthquake. I am not sure. Isaiah 2 certainly hints strongly that the earthquake is the start of the Day of the Lord. John tells us that His wrath begins with the 6th seal - but then John wrote it with a Greek verb that shows no timing.  I guess until God shows me differently I will continue to say that THE DAY and God's wrath begins with the 6th seal. Once people feel the earthquake (Knowing what Isaiah 2 says) and then see the signs in the sun and moon, they will then KNOW that The DAY has started.

The 3 earthquakes are NOT the same. That theory is myth.

On a different topic (not earthquakes) .....the Day of the Lord.....Okay, I just reread Joel chapters 2 and 3 again slowly, and here are some thoughts I have....

1. Joel chapter 2 sounds like the 5th trumpet army that comes out from the abyss. 

11 The LORD thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty is the army that obeys his command. The day of the LORD is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?

This verse in Joel 2 is the one that makes us believe Joel 2 is IN THE DAY OF THE LORD (God’s wrath).  We know the trumpets and bowls are God’s wrath so it seems to fit.

2. Joel chapter 3 appears to be talking about a different event....ARMAGEDDON. 

2. I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

14. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.

Now here when he talks about the day of the Lord is near I believe is referring to the ultimate Day of the Lord...Armageddon. I believe the DOTL is broad (years) but can also be narrow (1 day) . 

I know you feel strongly that Joel 2 = 6th seal because of this....

10 Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.

But, if this chapter is describing the 5th trumpet, I’m not sure how you can make it be 6th seal.  I don’t see a great army in the 6th seal. So which is it? 6th seal or 5th trumpet or something else? 

 

 

 

[Spock]

LA,

You said this....

It seems now it is you that don't read my posts! I have always said they SHOW UP (from heaven) right in that verse of first mention: 11:3. That is after the first 6 trumpets but before the 7th trumpet. 

spocks rebuttal:

exactly, I know you say this. This is my biggest gripe with you on this. 

You say.....the two show up AFTER THE 6th trumpet......

I say.....but the Bible says THEY DIE AND ARE RESURRECTED after the 6th trumpet! (Rev 11: 7-14).  How could they show up where they die? 6th trumpet

It can’t be both! 

[Spock]

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Rev. 16: 18 - 21.

`And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Then the 7^th angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

And there were noises and thunder and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

Now the great city (Jerusalem) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And great hail from heaven fell upon men, every hailstone about the weight of a talent. And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since the plague was exceedingly great.` (Rev.16: 16 - 21)

Here are some more details of this Great earthquake that had not been previously. Notice it is just after the world`s armies gather at Armageddon.

 

Okay M., Ive spent sometime studying scripture, in particular Rev 6 compared to Rev 16 earthquake. Here we go...

1. Context of 6th seal is obviously before 7th seal. So let’s look and see what happens at the 7th seal....

Rev 8

1When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.

3Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel.

5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

The First Four Trumpets

6And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

 

Back to Spock’s musings again:

So, this passage clearly shows me the trumpets FOLLOW the 6th seal, not coinciding with and it clearly shows me the 6th seal can’t be at the end of week seeing that the trumpets and bowls follow it. 

2. The sun is black and the moon dark red......this sounds like a sign that is given to show us when the DOTL is to begin. Rev 16 says nothing about this and I don’t think many people believe the DOTL begins at Armageddon (Rev 16). 

3. Rev 6 shows Stars falling to the earth, which probably means angelic beings. Rev 16 makes no mention and there doesn’t appear to be a reason to see angels falling when they have already fallen at the midpoint of the week. 

4. Rev 6 shows, “The Heavens receded...”  This. shows me they are opening up which I believe in order to allow the dead in Christ and raptured Saints to come on in.  Of course, Rev 16 has nothing like this because no one is going up, but rather coming down to fight at Armageddon. 

5. Rev 6 says “Every Mtn and island was REMOVED” whereby Rev 16 says every island and mountain WERE GONE. I suppose they could be the same but because John used different verbs it doesn’t appear that he meant them to be the same thing.

6. Now this one is huge for me so pay attention.... Rev 6 says EVERYONE, including Kings and rich people, everyone HID under the rocks and mountains obviously afraid because like they then said “the wrath of God has come.”  Compare this with Rev 16 and you have a completely different take. Rev 16 is clearly about Armageddon, so we know it is describing the last battle on Earth before Christ returns. Do you think the kings are afraid and cowering because Jesus will be coming soon?  Nope, not at all. In fact, the Bible says in 16:21 “they CURSED God....”  No, they weren’t scared....they were very angry with God. And this makes sense M.  Notice that after the 4th and 5th bowl judgments, the people did not even repent....they were hopping mad at God. They were definitely not afraid, just mad. So one shows being scared and hiding while the other shows being angry and cursing. I don’t see how this could be the same thing just giving us different details, when the details are opposite each other. They can’t contradict each other, that makes no sense. 

7. There is no mention of “peals of thunder , rumblings, and flashes of lightning” in Rev 6, but there is in Rev 16. Why?  I think because these come from the throne of God and represent His judgment/Wrath. I don’t believe the 6th seal was God’s wrath. I believe his wrath began after the half hour of silence beginning with the 7th seal. And guess what? The “peals of thunder, rumblings, and flashes of lightning” are mentioned in the 7th seal (but not 6th). See Rev 8:5 for your proof. 

8. Context is always huge: Rev 16 is clearly Armageddon so it has to be right at the end of the week. You cannot definitely say the 6th and 7th seals are at the end of the week.  In my opinion you can’t even INFER  that the 6th and 7th seals are at the end of the week.  The Bible doesn’t support that as I have shown above. 

CONCLUSION: M., you blew me away last night and I was impressed with your argument. But this morning, after searching and studying AND going deeper into the word, I find that I cannot accept this teaching as being accurate, thus I cannot accept it as my own. I know you said each reference is sharing different details, and that may be true, but only if the details DONT CONTRADICT ONE ANOTHER. I believe they were contradicting in places, therefore, not the same. 

Haggai passage commentary:

`For thus says the Lord of hosts: “Once more I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations,.. (Hag.2: 6 & 7)

I believe God is not saying there will only be one more great EQ, but I do believe the one he is referencing in the BIG ONE in Rev 16:18....the granddaddy of them all.  After this EQ, all Remnant Jews will be gathered to Israel and all the nations will want to come to see Yeshua ruling and reigning in Jerusalem....the Desire of all nations indeed! 

Oh, When in doubt, I always apply OT prophecies to ISRAEL first, not the Church. I believe the Rev 6 EQ is meant especially for the church. 

The Defendant’s attorney now rests....

I don’t expect you to change your mind because of this so it’s okay if we agree to disagree. 

In love,

spock

Edited March 20, 2019 by Spock

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Spock said:

On a different topic (not earthquakes) .....the Day of the Lord.....Okay, I just reread Joel chapters 2 and 3 again slowly, and here are some thoughts I have....

1. Joel chapter 2 sounds like the 5th trumpet army that comes out from the abyss. 

11 The LORD thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty is the army that obeys his command. The day of the LORD is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?

This verse in Joel 2 is the one that makes us believe Joel 2 is IN THE DAY OF THE LORD (God’s wrath).  We know the trumpets and bowls are God’s wrath so it seems to fit.

2. Joel chapter 3 appears to be talking about a different event....ARMAGEDDON. 

2. I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

14. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.

Now here when he talks about the day of the Lord is near I believe is referring to the ultimate Day of the Lord...Armageddon. I believe the DOTL is broad (years) but can also be narrow (1 day) . 

I know you feel strongly that Joel 2 = 6th seal because of this....

10 Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.

But, if this chapter is describing the 5th trumpet, I’m not sure how you can make it be 6th seal.  I don’t see a great army in the 6th seal. So which is it? 6th seal or 5th trumpet or something else? 

1. I have no revelation on the Joel 2 Army.  They are God's army, of that I am certain- not lead by the devil or the "destroyer."

It may be the church  as they  return with Him!  If so, then Joel 2 is not in any kind of timing order.

2. I agree: Armageddon  DOTL: I don't think it means the DAy will START there, but God's wrath will certain be there in that valley - and it will be His wrath in the DAY.

I believe Joel 2  = the 6th seal because of the timing: before the DAY or the SIGN for the DAY. 

It will still be THE DAY when we return with Christ. I think those that WANT to fight will certainly fight - on white horses! I think the army is the church.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Okay M., Ive spent sometime studying scripture, in particular Rev 6 compared to Rev 16 earthquake. Here we go...

1. Context of 6th seal is obviously before 7th seal. So let’s look and see what happens at the 7th seal....

Rev 8

1When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.

3Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel.

5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

The First Four Trumpets

6And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

 

Back to Spock’s musings again:

So, this passage clearly shows me the trumpets FOLLOW the 6th seal, not coinciding with and it clearly shows me the 6th seal can’t be at the end of week seeing that the trumpets and bowls follow it. 

2. The sun is black and the moon dark red......this sounds like a sign that is given to show us when the DOTL is to begin. Rev 16 says nothing about this and I don’t think many people believe the DOTL begins at Armageddon (Rev 16). 

3. Rev 6 shows Stars falling to the earth, which probably means angelic beings. Rev 16 makes no mention and there doesn’t appear to be a reason to see angels falling when they have already fallen at the midpoint of the week. 

4. Rev 6 shows, “The Heavens receded...”  This. shows me they are opening up which I believe in order to allow the dead in Christ and raptured Saints to come on in.  Of course, Rev 16 has nothing like this because no one is going up, but rather coming down to fight at Armageddon. 

5. Rev 6 says “Every Mtn and island was REMOVED” whereby Rev 16 says every island and mountain WERE GONE. I suppose they could be the same but because John used different verbs it doesn’t appear that he meant them to be the same thing.

6. Now this one is huge for me so pay attention.... Rev 6 says EVERYONE, including Kings and rich people, everyone HID under the rocks and mountains obviously afraid because like they then said “the wrath of God has come.”  Compare this with Rev 16 and you have a completely different take. Rev 16 is clearly about Armageddon, so we know it is describing the last battle on Earth before Christ returns. Do you think the kings are afraid and cowering because Jesus will be coming soon?  Nope, not at all. In fact, the Bible says in 16:21 “they CURSED God....”  No, they weren’t scared....they were very angry with God. And this makes sense M.  Notice that after the 4th and 5th bowl judgments, the people did not even repent....they were hopping mad at God. They were definitely not afraid, just mad. So one shows being scared and hiding while the other shows being angry and cursing. I don’t see how this could be the same thing just giving us different details, when the details are opposite each other. They can’t contradict each other, that makes no sense. 

7. There is no mention of “peals of thunder , rumblings, and flashes of lightning” in Rev 6, but there is in Rev 16. Why?  I think because these come from the throne of God and represent His judgment/Wrath. I don’t believe the 6th seal was God’s wrath. I believe his wrath began after the half hour of silence beginning with the 7th seal. And guess what? The “peals of thunder, rumblings, and flashes of lightning” are mentioned in the 7th seal (but not 6th). See Rev 8:5 for your proof. 

8. Context is always huge: Rev 16 is clearly Armageddon so it has to be right at the end of the week. You cannot definitely say the 6th and 7th seals are at the end of the week.  In my opinion you can’t even INFER  that the 6th and 7th seals are at the end of the week.  The Bible doesn’t support that as I have shown above. 

CONCLUSION: M., you blew me away last night and I was impressed with your argument. But this morning, after searching and studying AND going deeper into the word, I find that I cannot accept this teaching as being accurate, thus I cannot accept it as my own. I know you said each reference is sharing different details, and that may be true, but only if the details DONT CONTRADICT ONE ANOTHER. I believe they were contradicting in places, therefore, not the same. 

Haggai passage commentary:

`For thus says the Lord of hosts: “Once more I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations,.. (Hag.2: 6 & 7)

I believe God is not saying there will only be one more great EQ, but I do believe the one he is referencing in the BIG ONE in Rev 16:18....the granddaddy of them all.  After this EQ, all Remnant Jews will be gathered to Israel and all the nations will want to come to see Yeshua ruling and reigning in Jerusalem....the Desire of all nations indeed! 

Oh, When in doubt, I always apply OT prophecies to ISRAEL first, not the Church. I believe the Rev 6 EQ is meant especially for the church. 

The Defendant’s attorney now rests....

I don’t expect you to change your mind because of this so it’s okay if we agree to disagree. 

In love,

spock

Good job reasoning things out, Spock!

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Spock said:

LA,

You said this....

It seems now it is you that don't read my posts! I have always said they SHOW UP (from heaven) right in that verse of first mention: 11:3. That is after the first 6 trumpets but before the 7th trumpet. 

spocks rebuttal:

exactly, I know you say this. This is my biggest gripe with you on this. 

You say.....the two show up AFTER THE 6th trumpet......

I say.....but the Bible says THEY DIE AND ARE RESURRECTED after the 6th trumpet! (Rev 11: 7-14).  How could they show up where they die? 6th trumpet

It can’t be both! 

Of course it cannot be both! They must testify for 1260 days - and there will NOT be 1260 days between the 6th and 7th trumpet!

It is very simple. Please, allow to to show you again how easy:

 

(Maybe three days before the midpoint) 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

² But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

³ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.    (Definitely 3.5 days before the midpoint.)

(⁴ These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

⁵ And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

⁶ These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

⁷ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

⁸ And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

⁹ And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

¹⁰ And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

¹¹ And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.)

(AT the midpoint) ¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

See how easy that is?  John introduces the reader to the two witnesses the moment they Show up, but then John takes the reader on a RABBIT trail or SIDE JOURNEY (written as a parenthesis) down the last half of the week with the two witnesses only. After the side journey, the parenthesis is over and John is right back at the midpoint.

I really don't understand what it is you have against parentheses! Notice, if you read it and skip the parenthesis, it still makes perfect sense.

Edited March 20, 2019 by iamlamad

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Since you want to see scripture, I have stated before [maybe not in this thread} that Joel shows us TWO DIFFERENT signs in the sun and moon, and show us they are for different purposes and for a different time.

Joel 2:³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Note carefully: here the moon appears blood red. What does this tell us? It tells us the moon will be VISIBLE. It should be obvious that this is the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord. We see almost the exact wording at the 6th seal.

 

Hi iamlamad,

The Day of the Lord is - a time period and a specific Day. (Heb. Yowm) When the moon becomes LIKE blood, then its light would NOT shine.

Marilyn. 

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, Spock said:

Hi M.,

okay im fresh and studying scripture.

here are all the references in Revelation showing earthquakes:

rev 6:12 - 6th seal, ( no mention of peals of thunder, flashes of lightning, rumblings)

Rev 8:5 - 7th seal, peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an EQ

rev 11:13 - two witnesses resurrected , 1/10 Jerusalem collapsed, 7000 die (no peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning)

rev 11:19- 7thtrumpet,  flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and an EQ)

rev 16:18- 7th bowl, flashes of lightning , rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great EQ.

NOTE 1: rev 4:5 also see peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning BUT NO EARTHQUAKE, 

NOTE 2:   it appears there is an earthquake whenever you have a resurrection (see Matthew 27:53-54 also) : two witnesses resurrected in Rev 11:13. 

So, I think one can presume there would also be an earthquake when the dead in Christ are resurrected (rev 6 perhaps) and when OT Jews are resurrected (Rev 16 perhaps)

so, does the mentioning of peals of thundering, flashes of lightning, rumblings mean something?  It appears these come from the throne of God, therefore God’s judgment. You don’t see this at the 6th seal or the resurrection of the two witnesss at Rev 11 or Matthew 27....so I guess these 8nstances do not reflect God’s judgment.  

INterestingly, the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and the 7th bowl all have the peals of thunder, rumblings, and flashes of lightning associated with it. God’s judgment! 

Okay let’s ponder all of this.....

 

Hi Spock,

Hadn`t really noticed that about the 7th seal, trumpet, bowl, so very interesting bit of info there bro, thanks. So a few comments. 

Does God have to have your criteria of `thunderings..` etc on every earthquake or other events to therefore make them judgments?

There are no `thunderings etc` after the 1 - 6 trumpets, so does that mean they are not judgments?

The Rev. 6 scroll is opened in the throne room where there are `thunderings etc...`

So now you have rejected Rev. 6: 12 - 17  heavens and earth shaking as at the end of the trib, then all your other points should fit, ay?

However, if you are still in some confusion, then how about really trying on the Rev. 6: 12 - 17 as the end and putting all the other pieces in the framework. Do you think you gave that view a good run, or just quickly put it aside?

Marilyn.  

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

The Day of the Lord is - a time period and a specific Day. (Heb. Yowm) When the moon becomes LIKE blood, then its light would NOT shine.

Marilyn. 

Marilyn, this is simply not true; how would anyone KNOW if the moon was blood red - unless it was SEEN?  A blood red moon is visible. Do a google search on blood moon.  The moon appears red in color during a lunar eclipse. 

Where do you get a single day for the Day of the Lord?  I think the 70th week is INSIDE the Day of the Lord.  The week ends but the DAY continues.

[Spock]

46 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Hadn`t really noticed that about the 7th seal, trumpet, bowl, so very interesting bit of info there bro, thanks. So a few comments. 

Does God have to have your criteria of `thunderings..` etc on every earthquake or other events to therefore make them judgments?

There are no `thunderings etc` after the 1 - 6 trumpets, so does that mean they are not judgments?

The Rev. 6 scroll is opened in the throne room where there are `thunderings etc...`

So now you have rejected Rev. 6: 12 - 17  heavens and earth shaking as at the end of the trib, then all your other points should fit, ay?

However, if you are still in some confusion, then how about really trying on the Rev. 6: 12 - 17 as the end and putting all the other pieces in the framework. Do you think you gave that view a good run, or just quickly put it aside?

Marilyn.  

M.,

just in case you missed it, I have a second post I made this morning, a longer post,  with about 8 points I addressed. I also commented on the great Haggai passage you cited that blew me over last night.I hope you like. It is on page 54. 

As usual, I enjoy any feedback or rebuttals on any of those points. 

As for what you said here, I don’t feel I rejected the 6th seal at the end of the week very quickly....I read your basis and study and did my own. I feel if I can’t believe the Rev 16 EQ is the same as the Rev 6 EW, why press on any further?

Spock

Edited March 20, 2019 by Spock