Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

The final 7 years is the 70th week of Daniel. The church is already in heaven before the 70th week begins via the pretribulation rapture. The 70 week is when God deals with the Jews which occurs after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Daniel 9 says: 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people. That would be the Jews.

Very good!

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

I know you don’t think that the coming in Rev 6 = Matt 24 coming, and yet God clearly sets the timeline. 

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

God clearly gives you an absolute timeline starting point, but you won’t listen to Him because it makes no sense to you.

I have already shown you why your timeline is in error. Look again.

Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The church is clearly in heaven before before the tribulation begins. 

As for you showing that Armageddon occurs at Jesus coming in Matt 24, you have not shown any proof of that. All we can see is there is a gathering.

Matt 24

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Conclusion: Since we see the church in heaven in Rev 5 your timeline cannot be correct. Since we see the sun moon and stars event in both Matthew 24 and Rev 6 your timeline cannot be correct. Since we see a gathering just prior to the beginning of the day of the Lord and not Armageddon your timeline cannot be correct. Just plain facts and logic Mr Spock.

i would start by trying to figure out what the church is doing in heaven in Rev 5.

You are repeating the same mistake Rosenthal and Van Kampen made when they started prewrath theory. It was wrong then and it is STILL wrong. You have placed TWO DIFFERENT signs together as if they were the same. They are NOT the same:

In Joel 2 and at the 6th seal, there will come the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord. The moon will appear blood red. 

In Joel 3 and in Matthew 24, there will come another sign - the sign of Christ's coming (See Rev 19). Here it will be total darkness! Neither the sun nor the moon will be visible. Not even the stars will be seen. TWO DIFFERENT signs for two different purposes separated in time by over 7 years.  This is a SERIOUS mistake. Remember the axiom on Revelation. 

Did you just ignore that the signs at the 6th seal are actual a part of the seals protecting the book? And that this was in chapter 6? Christ's coming is not until chapter 19! 

Please allow me to assist your thinking: the seals are protecting the book - to prevent anyone from opening the book until all seven seals are opened first. Once the 7 seals are opened, then the BOOK gets opened. What you read in Rev. 8 is what is written inside the book. You cannot get to the first trumpet until ALL SEALS are opened.  Then the days of GT will not come until first the 7th trumpet is sounded: it will be sounded in heaven to MARK the abomination timing on earth. When the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God - the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven. So the days of GT cannot possibly start until after the 7th trumpet. But you imagine they are in the first seals.

Again, allow me to assist: the first seal is the CHURCH taking the GOSPEL to the world. It was opened as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book into His hands. Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church He was allowed to use wars, famines, pestilences, but was LIMITED in his theater of operation to only 1/4 of the world - that fourth centered on Jerusalem.  That would take in Europe, the middle East and Africa. Where were the two world wars started? IN that 1/4th. Where have famines after famines been? In African, INSIDE that 1/4. 

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. John is still in the church age at the 5th seal. Do you see that your timing is miles off from John's?

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, Spock said:

Well, knowing in Rev 12 that “the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth and his angels with him.....and there was no longer a place for them IN HEAVEN” so I suppose they must be above the earths atmosphere to be thrown down to earth (I assume that means both the land and atmosphere). So I guess we can infer this is the 2nd heaven.  They obviously are in some heaven today, so the 2nd heaven makes sense. 

Regarding the “throne vacancy” honestly, I have no thoughts on that one. You didn’t provide a scripture reference so I guess you just assumed there is a vacancy for that throne. I will play along for now because I’m not sure where you are going with this.

i presume you are giving me this backdrop because you are building your case to show me why the rapture must take place before the 70th week begins, right?  At least, that was the question I asked of you a while back, right?  So, when you wake up and have time, lead on dear sister. Oh, and pleasant dreams....mine were weird! 

spock

Good evening Spock,

Thanks for your thoughts so far. I do realise some of this you may have not thought of before, and will take some time to think on. It is important though as we need to look at the big picture then see our part in it. Now although you haven`t thought upon the realms or rulerships there, much before, it is a major emphasis of God. I will do a quick summary and hope I can explain it better to you.

Like the `trinity` it is logic, (but not the word) that there are 3 persons in the Godhead, so, with some of what I write.  And you worked out well where Satan must be if he was cast down from `heaven,`  in the tribulation, (but not from the angelic realm where he was originally).

So...to facts -

God through Christ, made the 3 different realms of heaven -

Highest realm, the Universal realm, and the earth with its atmosphere.

In those realms God made positions for rulership -

Thrones, Principalities and powers...(Col. 1: 16)

God made those positions where He would delegate His power and authority, and has the right to judge when these positions are unrighteous. Thus we read of Lucifer, (later named Satan) who was given authority in the highest realm. When found to be unrighteous he was cast out of there, and usurped the Principalities and Powers authority in the Universal realm. This is a lesser authority.

Now that does mean that God will never give anyone else the position of rulership in the highest realm? No, for we know that God created them for Himself.

`For by Him, (Christ) all things were created ....whether thrones or dominions or Principalities or Powers. All things were created through Him and FOR HIM.` (Col.1: 16)

We do not see any other angel being given the position of power and authority, (symbol, throne) in the highest realm. Thus it is logical that God is waiting for the appointed time to anoint His righteous rulership, in the highest realm.

 

[Marilyn C]

We then ask, why doesn`t God just continue to rule over all? Why have these positions of rulership in the different realms? Good questions.

God, as we know is a Spirit, (John 4: 24) and is beyond His creation, all the realms, yet He is able to be within it.

`God....who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see,...` (1 Tim. 6: 16)

However...we know that God the Father`s purpose is that His Son `gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Him....` (Eph. 1: 10)  This `in one,` meaning in harmony, in unity, and under Christ`s righteous rule. And then `the Son Himself will also be subject to Him....that God may be all in all.` (1 Cor. 15: 28)

Is that clearer? Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

Good evening Spock,

Thanks for your thoughts so far. I do realise some of this you may have not thought of before, and will take some time to think on. It is important though as we need to look at the big picture then see our part in it. Now although you haven`t thought upon the realms or rulerships there, much before, it is a major emphasis of God. I will do a quick summary and hope I can explain it better to you.

Like the `trinity` it is logic, (but not the word) that there are 3 persons in the Godhead, so, with some of what I write.  And you worked out well where Satan must be if he was cast down from `heaven,`  in the tribulation, (but not from the angelic realm where he was originally).

So...to facts -

God through Christ, made the 3 different realms of heaven -

Highest realm, the Universal realm, and the earth with its atmosphere.

In those realms God made positions for rulership -

Thrones, Principalities and powers...(Col. 1: 16)

God made those positions where He would delegate His power and authority, and has the right to judge when these positions are unrighteous. Thus we read of Lucifer, (later named Satan) who was given authority in the highest realm. When found to be unrighteous he was cast out of there, and usurped the Principalities and Powers authority in the Universal realm. This is a lesser authority.

Now that does mean that God will never give anyone else the position of rulership in the highest realm? No, for we know that God created them for Himself.

`For by Him, (Christ) all things were created ....whether thrones or dominions or Principalities or Powers. All things were created through Him and FOR HIM.` (Col.1: 16)

We do not see any other angel being given the position of power and authority, (symbol, throne) in the highest realm. Thus it is logical that God is waiting for the appointed time to anoint His righteous rulership, in the highest realm.

 

Isn't God our FAther ALWAYS on the throne in that hightest realm - the throne room of heaven? Doesn't Jesus and the Holy Spirit always defer to Him? I see Him ALREADY ruling from the highest realm. But He has given Jesus Christ authority at His right side.

[The Light]

39 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are assuming the 24 elders are "the church." Most people don't assume that. Indeed, the timing of chapter 5 is right when Jesus was found worthy to open the seals - around 32 AD. There was no church then!

You must follow the clues John gives us, without making assumptions.

Notice that John DID NOT see Jesus at the right hand of the FAther in chapter 4 - but saw Him as He ascended in chapter 5

Notice that "no man was found" worthy in that first search John watched.

Notice that the Holy Spirit was NOT YET sent down in chapter 4, but was in chapter 5.

These are all TIMING clues

 

Greetings LA,

No sir, I am not assuming that the 24 elders are the church. The 24 elders say they are redeemed out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. For them to say that, there would have to be every kindred and tongue and people and nation present with them. That would be the church. Spockian logic is all that is needed.

 

[Marilyn C]

26 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Isn't God our FAther ALWAYS on the throne in that hightest realm - the throne room of heaven? Doesn't Jesus and the Holy Spirit always defer to Him? I see Him ALREADY ruling from the highest realm. But He has given Jesus Christ authority at His right side.

Hi iamlamad,

God the Father dwells in `unapproachable light,` (1 Tim. 6: 16) as God`s word says. His eternal throne is NOT in the created order, He always was and was before he created anything, before thrones were put in place in the different realms for He created them, (Col. 1: 16 `For by Him all things were created, that are in heaven and that are on earth,....whether thrones.....Principalities or Powers..` ) God`s ETERNAL THRONE, AUTHORITY AND POWER were NOT created and thus are OUTSIDE of what is created.

Jesus, as you rightly said, is at the Father`s right hand which is BEYOND anything created, on God`s ETERNAL THRONE.

 

Marilyn.

[The Light]

39 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Your logic has flaws!  In the first place, your TIMING is all wrong. John gives timing clues, but you have missed them. The timing of chapter 5 is right when Jesus ascended. The church was in infancy stage. This throne room vision was a vision of the past. The rapture is STILL FUTURE today! At the time of this vision, around 32 AD, Paul had not yet received the revelation of the rapture!

I suspect you are imagining the rapture in 4:1. That theory is MYTH: it was JOHN caught up to heaven. 

Perhaps the elders are singing the song that will represent all believers of all time - not just specifically them. the NIV has it:  "because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."

This is truth: Jesus DID redeem people from all nations

This definitely is the church in Rev 5.   No, this is MYTH. The church is seen in Rev.  as the great crowd too large to number.

So in summary: The church is raptured pre trib  Absolute truth. But can you pinpoint the start of the 70th week in Revelation? Can you show the rapture before that point in Revelation? (It is NOT in Rev. 4:1) Can you pinpoint where we are NOW in the book of Revelation? The rapture must be after that point. (Pure logic)

The church will raptured at the first trump, the left horn.  Left horn?  No, the church will be raptured at the LAST trump.

The tribulation and 70th week will be complete as shown in Matt 24, and then the wrath of God begins as shown in Rev 6.  TOTAL Myth! You show no regard whatsoever for John's chronology.

Axiom on Revelation: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

Your theory will be proven wrong. The truth is, God's wrath begins at the start of the Day of the Lord, at the 6th seal, right where John TELLS US it begins, but the 70th week does not begin until the 7th seal.  The 70th week is marked by 7's - starts at the 7th seal and ends with the 7th vial. And it is in its entirety God's wrath. every trumpet judgment will come with His wrath. You have put the "tribulation" in the first seals. That part is myth. The "tribulation" is the 70th week - and the 70th week is the tribulation. The days of great tribulation will not even BEGIN until after the warning in chapter 14.....and you imagine they will come before the 6th seal. This is prewrath theory which was wrong from the beginning.  Go back and read the axiom again.

Your logic needs a rework!

Whoa, struck a nerve, and you are way off by saying that the timing of chapter 5 is when Jesus ascended. 

You have absolutely no proof of that statement. In fact, your statement is easily proven in error. In Rev 4 we see 24 elders have their crowns. No way they can have their crowns before Jesus ascends. 

Rev 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

So what you are saying has been proven false. That pretty much undermines your arguments.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Can any one explain who these men are:

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?  And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.  And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.  Rev 5:1-4

Clearly, since Jesus told John to write what he saw, ...John saw men in Heaven!

Chapter 5 comes before chapter 6.

[Marilyn C]

36 minutes ago, JustPassingThru said:

Can any one explain who these men are:

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?  And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.  And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.  Rev 5:1-4

Clearly, since Jesus told John to write what he saw, ...John saw men in Heaven!

Chapter 5 comes before chapter 6.

Hi JustPassingThru,

Good spot there Just.... `men in heaven.` amazing.

`But you have come to Mount Zion,......to the innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, (Old Testament saints) to Jesus...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

So we see  - angels, Body of Christ, (church of first-born) & spirits of just men, (OT saints), all in heaven. And none were found worth to open the scroll.

Marilyn.