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Mid Trib rapture anyone?


Spock

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4 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad,

Well, in reading this I have somewhat come to a conclusion of where you stand regarding the timing of the rapture.

"The truth is, the ENTIRE 70th WEEK will come with God's wrath."

Now, I don't for a moment believe that the entire 70th week is the wrath of God. No sir, not me.

But you DO believe this. ( without any support from scripture I might add)

So what you are really saying is that you are pre-wrath. 

Imagine that!

Now, why would you say "without any support from scripture?"  I only QUOTED John!

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
 
Do you imagine THE DAY can come but "hold the wrath?"
Yes, OF COURSE I am "prewrath" because Paul was prewrath in his presentation of the rapture. I am also PRETRIB because Paul is pretrib. 
 
But, I am certainly NOT Rosenthal and Van Campen style prewrath! 
 
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
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39 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

You agreed that God did not give away authority over the earth, 

Yes, the EARTH is the Lord's: He created it. 

whereas previously you said -

God lost His authority over earth when He gave it to Adam. Then Adam gave it to Satan.

I think you need to read YOUR posts more!

Marilyn.

 

I got it! You see a difference between the world and the earth. I don't see that.

God OWNS the earth, but the kingdoms of the world are ON the earth. But God does not own the kingdoms. it is the planet He owns. I believe God gave Adam a 6000 year LEASE on earth - and the "book" in Revelation is that lease document. With that 6000 year lease goes the authority. 

So we still disagree. I still say, God lost His authority over earth (during the time of the lease) when He gave it to Adam. He told ADam to have dominion. If the dominion was still God's, then Adam could not have it. If Adam had it, then God did not. 

By the way, I am by no means perfect.  I make mistakes. And if I do, I admit it.

I OWN a rental unit. I have the title deed proving I own it. But people are leasing it, and THEY Have authority over it until the lease is up.

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44 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

So you can`t describe God, ay? You are referring to the manifest Lord Jesus as a glorified man, and He has a body, whereas the Godhead do not, they are a Spirit.

Marilyn. 

Marilyn, you cannot SAY THAT any longer! Jesus took on human flesh and will have it FOREVER as a part of the triune Godhead. Therefore, GOD is no longer only Spirit. GOD has human flesh, although glorified. 

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1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

Heresay, & heresy. We always believe God`s word against whatever some says they have done.

The `throne` God describes in those places are pictorial representations of things we have no understanding of. They are an earthly picture of what we know. heavenly things are not like earthly which will pass away, heavenly things are eternal.

`A throne set in heaven.` It is a throne that will be appointed by the Father, who is beyond all created realms, a throne for the worthy one to rule VISIBLY in the created order. God the Father is a Spirit and dwells in unapproachable light, which NO MAN HAS SEEN OR CAN SEE.

Those so called visitations to heaven are nor true.

Marilyn.

Marilyn, I wanted to comment on this a little more:  We always believe God`s word against whatever some says they have done.

Agreed. But there is MUCH disagreement over "God's word" and what it means.  You may think a verse means one thing; I may think it means something else. 

For example, someone was taken to hell to "see" it and experience it: she saw a woman who by appearances seemed to be born again. She asked Jesus about it. Jesus told her the woman's story: she WAS born again. (There goes the OSAS doctrine!)  But she was also a thief. Jesus said she thought there was a difference between a BIG sin and a little sin. She had a friend that worked at a pharmacy. When she needed a drug, or medicine, she would ask her friend to steal it for her!  Jesus said He tried for some extended period of time to get her to repent and quit...but she thought it was only her conscience bothering her! (Imagine her darling heart and stupid head!) Well, because she thought it was a small sin, no need to ask God to forgive her! One day she was hit head on in a car crash and went instantly into eternity - and was sent to hell. The bible is clear, thieves can't go to heaven - even if they are born again.  (I have met many OSAS people in my life.)

However, MANY believers will not believe this true happening because their doctrine is to0 fixed. And they cannot get themselves to believe that a born again thief cannot get into heaven - although it is a bible truth.

I could cite another story of a preachers, CERTAINLY born again, who died without forgiving his wife.  The bible is very clear, if we don't forgive, then neither can our Father forgive.  AGain, many will not believe it, because the have preconceived glasses on.

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2 hours ago, Spock said:

Well, how come Rev only talks about 3.5 years of trouble and not 7? 

And, do you really believe Israel will be in much tribulation the first 3.5 after the peace treaty that allows for them to rebuild their temple and resume sacrices? 

How come Jesus skipped over the first half in His discourse - going from church age straight to the AOD? I can't answer that. 

Neither can I answer why Revelation mentions the 3.5 years of the last half of the week 5 times, with no mention of the first half. I THINK I know, but John does not tell us. I think the reason is, the signing of the 7 year agreement will be done in secret.  The only way anyone can really tell us when the trumpet judgments begin. And they will probably not know WHO until the revealing when the man of sin enters the temple.

Since Jesus called it "the tribulation" I guess anyone else can. I prefer to call it the 70th week. From Daniel we know it is 7 years. I also know, one (not even God) can divide 3.5 years in half and still end up with one half being 3.5 years. It will take the full 7 years to do that. 

I don't think it will be a picnic, but during the first half, neither Satan nor the Antichrist Beast will be going after the Jews or the remnant of believers. But all will suffer under the trumpet judgments EXCEPT the 144,000.  But even they may have trouble finding fresh water to drink. 

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10 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Thought I`d try to answer your first question. `How come Rev, only talks of the 3.5 years of trouble?` Actually Rev. shows us that there are more years than that. Look at Rev. 9: 1 when the `star` that had fallen from heaven to earth releases the demons from the pit. (obviously those Jesus sent there). Now we know that occurs in the middle of the trib, (see Rev. 12: 7 - 12) when Satan and his fallen angels get cast out of the lower heavens to earth, limiting their authority.

Thus the tribulation punishments of Rev. 8: 7 - 13 (pre- woes) are quite horrific - 1/3 of trees, all green grass burned up. Just that alone means no food for animals, no grains for flour, rice, staple foods that we all need, also vegetables that grow, burned up. Then we move on to the sea and realise that the fish will be affected by the blood in the water, and even more horrific is the fresh water, which we need at least daily to survive. A third, became bitter. Then stars and sun will shine less, making growing food all the more difficult.

All in all the first part of the trib, will bring on hunger, and great thirst. Not a pleasant time.

Hope that builds a picture there, bro. Marilyn.

I haven’t completely made up my mind yet (still analyzing and pondering) as to the timing of the trumpet judgments. Presently I believe 1-4 is in first half; 5-7 in second half. 

Not sure though....wondering if all 7 follow the AOD. 

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I got it! You see a difference between the world and the earth. I don't see that.

God OWNS the earth, but the kingdoms of the world are ON the earth. But God does not own the kingdoms. it is the planet He owns. I believe God gave Adam a 6000 year LEASE on earth - and the "book" in Revelation is that lease document. With that 6000 year lease goes the authority. 

So we still disagree. I still say, God lost His authority over earth (during the time of the lease) when He gave it to Adam. He told ADam to have dominion. If the dominion was still God's, then Adam could not have it. If Adam had it, then God did not. 

By the way, I am by no means perfect.  I make mistakes. And if I do, I admit it.

I OWN a rental unit. I have the title deed proving I own it. But people are leasing it, and THEY Have authority over it until the lease is up.

Hi iamlamad,

`The earth is the Lord`s and all its fullness, the world AND THOSE WHO DWELL THEREIN, for He has founded it upon the seas and established it upon the waters...` (Ps. 24: 1 & 2)

God has NOT lost His authority over the earth, as you say. Satan usurped authority and God could have dealt with him right then and there, but God ALLOWS Satan to have a certain amount of authority and NO more.

God gave Adam dominion UNDER GOD, not independent of God. That was Adam`s mistake to go independent instead of staying interdependent.

And yes, even I dear bro, make many mistakes. I do like to have a chuckle now and again. perhaps I should have put, (lol) so you know when I am having a laugh, which would be about us all as humans, and the funny things we do sometimes. (lol)

Now the people in your rental only have so much authority, they do not own it nor can they make decisions regarding it for selling, or remaking, or any such thing. So that picture really just shows that they are under you, but have some say, (limited) as in you can`t invade their privacy.

God certainly controls the kingdoms of this world, BUT not how they choose to rule. That is what is judged. Remember King of Babylon, Belshazzar, who treated with contempt the vessels of the Lord. Well his days were numbered by God and he was replaced.

`God has numbered your kingdom, and finished it; ...you have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting...Your kingdom has been divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.....that very night Belshazzar, king of the Chaldeans, was slain, and Darius the Mede received the kingdom..` (Da. 5: 26 - 31)

So obviously God is in charge!

Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Marilyn, you cannot SAY THAT any longer! Jesus took on human flesh and will have it FOREVER as a part of the triune Godhead. Therefore, GOD is no longer only Spirit. GOD has human flesh, although glorified. 

Hi iamlamad,

OK let`s get our terminology correct. God - Father, (Spirit) Son, (Spirit), Holy Spirit = GODHEAD.

The Son was manifest as a man and now has a glorified body that is visible, which one day we will see. People can have a vision of the ascended Lord, BUT NOT of God the Father nor the GODHEAD.

BTW Jesus does not have human flesh any more for His body is now immortal, & incorruptible, and ours will be some day too.

Marilyn.

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18 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

OK let`s get our terminology correct. God - Father, (Spirit) Son, (Spirit), Holy Spirit = GODHEAD.

The Son was manifest as a man and now has a glorified body that is visible, which one day we will see. People can have a vision of the ascended Lord, BUT NOT of God the Father nor the GODHEAD.

BTW Jesus do not have human flesh any more for His body is now immortal, & incorruptible, and ours will be some day too.

Marilyn.

I agree with M. When she said Jesus does not have a body of flesh, although you both agreed his body is now immortal and incorruptible (glorified).  

“Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”

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3 hours ago, Spock said:

Well, how come Rev only talks about 3.5 years of trouble and not 7? 

And, do you really believe Israel will be in much tribulation the first 3.5 after the peace treaty that allows for them to rebuild their temple and resume sacrices? 

You need to use your logic Mr Spock.

Matt 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

THESE ARE THE SAME EVENTS. God gives us perfect timing to show us in Revelation where the events of Matthew 24 occur.

 

Matt 24

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 

Rev 6

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

THESE ARE ALSO THE SAME EVENTS.

Logic Mr. Spock. When the tribulation is complete, then the wrath of God will begin.

The church will be caught up in the pretribulation rapture. Then God turns his attention to the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. There are 144,000 first fruits, guaranteeing a harvest and that is the gathering that you see in Matt 24. The twelve tribes will not be caught unaware. They will not be in darkness that that day takes them unaware.

The wrath of God will be 42 months, just like it says, time, times and half a time. This event, God's wrath, does not occur during the 70th week as THE TRIBULATION IS OVER.  The nation of Israel will go through the wrath of God in a place of protection. None of God's people experience his wrath. Not the church, not the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth and not those in Israel that flee as they have been instructed.

 

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