Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

It does not say that in the text.  The angel (not the elders) is posing a rhetorical question.   it does not say that Yeshua is not there.  It does not say that He has yet to arrive.  It simply tells John to stop weeping and that the Lamb has overcome.  The key is "no one" as in a man.  The description of Yeshua is the Lamb as it had been slain.  Again, the scripture says clearly that He had been marred so bad that He no longer appeared like a man.

Also, there is ample scripture support that the 24 Elders are the redeemed of this NT era. 

You will need stronger scriptural support that Yeshua was not present in that crowd.  You are developing an entire doctrine on a couple of verses from one book in one Testament.  That does not meet the scriptural standard.  Now, I am open to any support you can find for your position from the OT and NT.  But I am not sure you can find that.  I believe there is ample support in both OT and NT for a pre-trib removal of the righteous.   I could be wrong also, but it is incumbent on you to show me from both OT and NT that I err.   

People can read it for themselves and make up their own minds.  To me, its pretty clear what is said and what is meant. 

Stay awake as the darkness encroaches, brother, and encourage others to do the same.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Last Daze
Grammar

[OldCoot]

34 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

People can read it for themselves and make up their own minds.  To me, its pretty clear what is said and what is meant. 

Stay awake as the darkness encroaches, brother, and to encourage others to do the same.

On that we can agree!  God Bless!

[Revelation Man]

On 5/27/2019 at 1:46 PM, iamlamad said:

Hint: the OLD TESTAMENT saints were also saved by Jesus blood! There goes your argument! 

 

HINT: Read Dan. 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan. 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

No one goes to Heaven, save maybe Elijah and Moses, the Jews will be judged at the VERY END when Jesus Returns as shown in verses 1 and 2. The Church is dealt with before the very end, we are Raptured pre 70th Week. People don't go to Heaven as soon as they die, read about Abraham's Bosom. Read 1 Cor 15, we are Raptured at the same time as the DEAD IN Christ. The Jews will be raised at the very end.

On 5/27/2019 at 1:46 PM, iamlamad said:

Jesus "nowhere?" Wake up! Jesus was not worthy to take the book and open the seals ANY TIME during the Old Covenant! He was GOD and not man at the time - and only A MAN could be found worthy.  AT the time of that first search, Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer of mankind. It has to do with TIMING. Between the first search that John watched, and a subsequent search while John was weeping much, Jesus rose from the dead. This is NOT a difficult concept! And it IS what this scripture is telling us - whether you see it or not. 

Your arguments seem always to end up being NON-arguments.

Jesus is God thus he was ALWAYS WORTHY.....Everything you are saying is wrong and you will find out once you get to Heaven brother. Its like talking to a wall, I ain't getting nowhere so its a waste of my time. You actually think you are right, so it is what it is.

On 5/27/2019 at 1:51 PM, iamlamad said:

No, the rapture does not happen in Rev. 4:1: that is MYTH. A beginning reader could tell us that was JOHN caught up into heaven! WHEN? Around 95 AD. I will admit, it is a myth millions have believed. They are just as mistaken as you are. 

For the readers; take note that these letters to the churches were to churches EXISTING in 95 AD. It was still 95 AD or thereabouts when Jesus finished dictating the letters to the church and called John up to heaven.

In 95 AD John saw a vision after He was caught up. A vision can be past, present or future. We have to examine the vision to determine the timing. Make no mistake, it was around 95 AD when John SAW the vision. What John saw or the timing of what John saw is another question. 

Sure it does.

 

On 5/27/2019 at 2:04 PM, iamlamad said:

You are hinting strongly that I heard from Satan. Well, you can be wrong. Perhaps it is "rarely" but I was one of those "rare" times. You deem what I write as wrong because it does not agree with what you write. One thing we do agree one, ONE OF US IS WRONG! And we disagree on which one is wrong. 

Readers, you have to decide by scripture what is truth is what is not. Ask yourself these questions:

Pointing out a fact, those who never admit they can be wrong have already fallen into a trap brother. Satan loves to tell us we can't be wrong, that's the point. Satan never stops working, that's the point.

On 5/27/2019 at 2:04 PM, iamlamad said:

Readers, you have to decide by scripture what is truth is what is not. Ask yourself these questions:

1. Did John see Jesus at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4-  or did he NOT?

2. Did John watch a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals and that search end in failure? Why was John weeping much?

3. Does John write about Jesus suddenly appearing in the throne room and sending the Holy Spirit down  in chapter 5 - or am I imaging that?

4. Ask yourself WHEN did Jesus ascend? WHEN did Jesus get that book into His own hands as per scripture in chapters 4 & 5?

5. Ask yourself, is God ABLE to show a vision of the past? CAN God do this? Can God show a vision with both the past and the future in one vision? is He ABLE? 

6. WHY would God show John a throne room WITHOUT Jesus at the right hand of the FAther? What could be His purpose?

7. WHY would God show John a search for one worthy that ended in failure?

Jesus died 2000 years ago, the Church is in Heaven in Rev. 4 and 5, there is no debate.

On 5/27/2019 at 2:09 PM, iamlamad said:

Why can't you just follow the scripture? Why come up with human reasoning when John TELLS US?

¹⁸ And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Why can't you admit the book of Revelation is DEEPLY ENCODED and HIGHLY SYMBOLIC ? Via Metaphors ?

On 5/27/2019 at 2:09 PM, iamlamad said:

Make no mistake, this is the woman John saw riding the Beast! It is not a false religion, it is a CITY. It is not many false religions, it is a CITY. 

 

The Woman is the Harlot Religions.

On 5/27/2019 at 2:09 PM, iamlamad said:

WHY a city? God wanted Jerusalem to be the city that the world would look on and see GOD at work. But in the end, the world is deceived from the devilish doctrine coming from Jerusalem, as the Beast and False Prophet deceive the ENTIRE WORLD from Jerusalem. 

You even get that wrong, the City is not THE WOMAN, SMH, the WOMAN........RIDES the......BEAST !! The City {Babylon} was one of four descriptors. Nothing more, nothing less. The Harlot is All False Religion and Babylon is WORLD GOV. under Satan.

On 5/27/2019 at 2:09 PM, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but I am going to take John's word over yours.  

I disagree that it will be mostly Muslims: the Beast will be THEIR 12th Imam!  They will be the FIRST to follow Him!

You really just can't decipher it very well brother IMHO, you mean well. You can read what you will, not understanding the code hinders many, not just you. It is what it is.......

Edited May 29, 2019 by Revelation Man

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

HINT: Read Dan. 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan. 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

No one goes to Heaven, save maybe Elijah and Moses, the Jews will be judged at the VERY END when Jesus Returns as shown in verses 1 and 2. The Church is dealt with before the very end, we are Raptured pre 70th Week. People don't go to Heaven as soon as they die, read about Abraham's Bosom. Read 1 Cor 15, we are Raptured at the same time as the DEAD IN Christ. The Jews will be raised at the very end.

Jesus is God thus he was ALWAYS WORTHY.....Everything you are saying is wrong and you will find out once you get to Heaven brother. Its like talking to a wall, I ain't getting nowhere so its a waste of my time. You actually think you are right, so it is what it is.

Sure it does.

 

Pointing out a fact, those who never admit they can be wrong have already fallen into a trap brother. Satan loves to tell us we can't be wrong, that's the point. Satan never stops working, that's the point.

Jesus died 2000 years ago, the Church is in Heaven in Rev. 4 and 5, there is no debate.

Why can't you admit the book of Revelation is DEEPLY ENCODED and HIGHLY SYMBOLIC ? Via Metaphors ?

The Woman is the Harlot Religions.

You even get that wrong, the City is not THE WOMAN, SMH, the WOMAN........RIDES the......BEAST !! The City {Babylon} was one of four descriptors. Nothing more, nothing less. The Harlot is All False Religion and Babylon is WORLD GOV. under Satan.

You really just can't decipher it very well brother IMHO, to mean well. You can read what you will, not understanding the code hinders many, not just you. It is what it is.......

Very typical: you take an Old Testament verse over a New Testament verse.  Big mistake: when both the new and the old speak on the same subject, learn doctrine from the New, not the Old!  the New explains the Old. Paul is very clear; abundantly clear: when he said that when believers are absent from their body they are present with the Lord. And you totally ignore the story of the rich man and Lazarus to arrive at your false theory. Abraham was certainly NOT "sleeping."  At that time, before Jesus dies and rose again, the Old Testament saints were certainly "resting" in paradise.  But when Jesus rose, to took those held captive in paradise to heaven. Now ANY believer that dies goes to heaven. How could you be so wrong on this point? 

WHEN will the Jews get their bodies resurrected? Do you know? It will be at the 7th vial that ends the 70th week. It is the last 24 hour day of their 70 weeks - the END of their time. Jesus said again and again that He would raise them up "on the last day." Revelation Man, you amaze me! You are here to teach others? Really? It is the BODIES of the dead that "sleep in the dust," not their spirit and soul!

we are Raptured pre 70th Week  Finally and tiny thread of truth here - but it is NOT at Rev. 4:1. The rapture will be just before wrath or just before the 6th seal, and the 70th week will begin at the 7th.  There will probably be 10 days of awe between the 6th and 7th seal.

People don't go to Heaven as soon as they die, read about Abraham's Bosom.   Sorry, your theory is VERY outdated! Paradise or Abe's bosom does not exist anymore for believers. Go back and read Paul.  Did you just forget that Jesus DEFEATED the grave (Hades?) No believe has to go there now: we go to be with Jesus. You amaze me. 

Jesus is God thus he was ALWAYS WORTHY  Now I know for sure you have no idea what Rev. 5 is about. Again, you amaze me. 

Take off your preconceived glasses and READ: We are not talking about just "being worthy;" we are talking about being worthy TO OPEN THE BOOK: God could not do it! It had to be a man.

² And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? ³ And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Notice carefully, this search ended in failure! At this time Jesus was NOT FOUND WORTHY to take the book; in fact NO MAN was. But notice what happens next:

⁵ And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Two verses later and Jesus WAS found worthy. What happened during those two verses? Jesus rose from the dead. He defeated death to become worthy. He defeated death to become our REDEEMER. 

What are these verses telling us? That written on the outside of the book was a detailed explanation of WHO could ever be worthy to take this book and open it: it HAD to be a Redeemer.  HOW did Jesus become the Redeemer? He came from heaven to be born of a virgin: no man born of man could qualify. He HAD to live a sinless life. He had to DIE. A last will and testament does not come into force until the death of the testator. Then, finally, He had to rise from the dead. Jesus did all of these things and so BECAME worthy to take the book and open the seals.

You sure seem to think you know  - when in fact you don't: you simply cannot believe John: your preconceptions are more powerful than the written word.

³ So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The woman is riding the beast. But WHO is she: what does she represent?

 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

She is the "mother" or the chief of harlots. 

⁶ And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

⁷ And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Notice, "I will tell the mystery of the woman." Her name is a mystery.  But John tells us here that HE IS GOING TO REVEAL who this woman represents. Wait for it......

⁸ The beast that thou sawest was, and is not;   Nope, not here!  Here John is talking about the Beast, not the woman.

Here it is, what John promised: What you refuse to believe - thinking your theory is better than what John wrote.

¹⁸ And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Now, what city will be reigning over the kings of the earth during the 70th week?

Rev 13:3...all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him

Rev. 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast

The Beast and False Prophet will deceive the entire world, including the kings mentioned above, and they will do it from JERUSALEM! 

John TELLS US what he means by "the great city." All we have to do is BELIEVE HIM!

Revelation 11:8

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 14:8

And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

18:3  ³ For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

 

Why? What is the reason the city of Jerusalem is called the great whore? John tells us: "She made all nations drink of....her fornication." What does this mean? The greatest deception ever foisted upon human beings will come from the city of Jerusalem and will deceive the entire world, save those who are believers.

Can you finally understand John? These verses mean ALL BUDDHISTS will be deceived and will believe the Beast is God. All Hindu's the same. All Muslims the same. They will ALL (every false religion) be deceived. They will all be worshiping the Beast, and Satan behind the beast AS IF HE WERE GOD!  And it will be done from Jerusalem.

During the 3.5 years the Beast and False Prophet will be in Jerusalem, trillions of dollars of goods will be sent to that great city. She will become one of the richest (in gold, jewelry, precious stones, Purple, etc.). Merchants will become rich just supplying the Beast with these worldly good.

however, I suspect all this will just go right over your head. You know better.

 

[ENOCH2010]

the last 3 pages have been 2 pre-tribbers going back and forth over which one is correct, the truth be told they are both wrong. No pre -trib rapture is coming . 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Old Coot.

Did you ever think more deeply about your signature line?

"A Jewish Man is coming who will do a hostile takeover and rule the world!"

That applies to Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ)! Don't you find that just a bit ironic?

[The Light]

12 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

the last 3 pages have been 2 pre-tribbers going back and forth over which one is correct, the truth be told they are both wrong. No pre -trib rapture is coming . 

I'd have to go Revelation Man being correct. He provided the correct and proper scriptural support regarding Rev 5.

[iamlamad]

On 5/27/2019 at 9:39 PM, OldCoot said:

 

Not to steal Revelation Man's thunder, just to reinforce it.  

 

1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Revelation 2:10 (NKJV) Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Revelation 3:11 (NKJV) Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

Revelation 3:21 (NKJV) To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Revelation 3:5 (NKJV) He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

The Elders are the redeemed.....

Revelation 4:4 (NKJV) Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

The redeemed have been caught up and are at the throne room of Yahweh as kings and priests before Him.   All before the Lamb comes forth to take the scroll and the 1st seal is ever opened.   It really is just that simple.

EXCEPT: no one knows if these elders have been resurrected or if they are in Spirit form.

No one knows whether they are New Testament saints or Old Testament saints. For example, two of them could be Enoch and Elijah. One of them could be Adam: who would be more "elder" than Adam?  What we CAN know is that in context Jesus just ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

Notice carefully WHEN the elders sang this song: it was AFTER Jesus rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, sent the Holy Spirit down, and took the book. It really is just that simple.

Therefore to form doctrine on the elders is silly at best. It is the OTHER points of Rev 4 & 5 that show us the intent of the Author.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

I'd have to go Revelation Man being correct. He provided the correct and proper scriptural support regarding Rev 5.

It appears you have the same reading problem Revelation Man has.  The truth is, Jesus was NOT in the throne room and had NOT risen from dead (yet) in chapter 4, but in chapter 5 time passed, Jesus rose from the dead (was then found worthy to take the book and open the seals), ascended on high, John got to see the moment He entered the throne room (in vision form) and sent the Holy Spirit down.  This is chapters 4 & 5 in a nut shell. They give us the context and the timing of the first seal. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

the last 3 pages have been 2 pre-tribbers going back and forth over which one is correct, the truth be told they are both wrong. No pre -trib rapture is coming . 

Ha! Dream on! You will know the truth when you are left behind. Think of us while we are flying up up up...