Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Old Coot.

Did you ever think more deeply about your signature line?

"A Jewish Man is coming who will do a hostile takeover and rule the world!"

That applies to Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ)! Don't you find that just a bit ironic?

His takeover will certainly be "hostile" from earth's point of view!  We could also add He will come from outer space!

[Revelation Man]

14 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

the last 3 pages have been 2 pre-tribbers going back and forth over which one is correct, the truth be told they are both wrong. No pre -trib rapture is coming . 

He says the Pre Trib Rapture happens at the sixth seal {I m pretty sure}, now no matter what you believe does that even fit logically speaking ? 

[iamlamad]

59 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

He says the Pre Trib Rapture happens at the sixth seal {I m pretty sure}, now no matter what you believe does that even fit logically speaking ? 

Read 1 thes. 5: Paul tells us that his rapture event will come almost the same moment wrath begins. It seems the rapture will trigger the Day of the Lord. I did not write Revelation: JOHN did backed by the Holy Spirit. He caused John to write that the Day of wrath begins at the 6th seal- or if some wish to argue for the 7th I would not argue. 

If the 6th seal starts the Day of the Lord - and it does - and if the rapture comes a moment before the Day - and it will - then it is SCRIPTURE telling us that the rapture event will come before the 5th seal. Since the 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age, and they are told they must wait for the final church age martyr, then the rapture must come after the 5th seal and before the 6th.

It is perfectly logical. However, if preconceptions force people to ignore chapters 4 & 5, and imagine the 70th week begins with the first seal  - which it certainly will not - then logic flies out of the window and preconceptions take over.

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

EXCEPT: no one knows if these elders have been resurrected or if they are in Spirit form.

No one knows whether they are New Testament saints or Old Testament saints. For example, two of them could be Enoch and Elijah. One of them could be Adam: who would be more "elder" than Adam?  What we CAN know is that in context Jesus just ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

Notice carefully WHEN the elders sang this song: it was AFTER Jesus rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, sent the Holy Spirit down, and took the book. It really is just that simple.

Therefore to form doctrine on the elders is silly at best. It is the OTHER points of Rev 4 & 5 that show us the intent of the Author.

These elders are not individuals but representative entities.  The pattern of dividing the priests into 24 groups was established by King David in 1 Chronicles 24.  These elders are both kings and priests:  Only the redeemed from Shavuot (Pentecost) onward are individually referenced that way.

Edited May 29, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

9 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Read 1 thes. 5: Paul tells us that his rapture event will come almost the same moment wrath begins. It seems the rapture will trigger the Day of the Lord. I did not write Revelation: JOHN did backed by the Holy Spirit. He caused John to write that the Day of wrath begins at the 6th seal- or if some wish to argue for the 7th I would not argue. 

If the 6th seal starts the Day of the Lord - and it does - and if the rapture comes a moment before the Day - and it will - then it is SCRIPTURE telling us that the rapture event will come before the 5th seal. Since the 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age, and they are told they must wait for the final church age martyr, then the rapture must come after the 5th seal and before the 6th.

It is perfectly logical. However, if preconceptions force people to ignore chapters 4 & 5, and imagine the 70th week begins with the first seal  - which it certainly will not - then logic flies out of the window and preconceptions take over.

1 Thessalonians 5 doesn’t say any removal occurs just before the wrath.  It says it occurs before the Day of the Lord arrived.  The Wrath is a part of that, but not necessarily at the very start of the DOL.

[iamlamad]

32 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

1 Thessalonians 5 doesn’t say any removal occurs just before the wrath.  It says it occurs before the Day of the Lord arrived.  The Wrath is a part of that, but not necessarily at the very start of the DOL.

The way I read it, the whole event begins SUDDENLY, when the bodies of the dead in Christ fly up out of their graves - at a time when people are thinking and probably saying, "peace and safely."

Then, one microsecond later, or sooner, two different groups of people get two different results: those living in the light of the gospel (in Christ) get raptured, and so get to "live together with Him," while those living in the darkness get "sudden destruction."  All this just a tiny tiny moment after the dead in Christ have risen. What then is this "sudden destruction?"  I submit it will be a worldwide earthquake caused when God raises the bodies of those dead in Christ. Those caught up alive will just begin to feel the ground shake and they are caught up.

Paul did not stop there. After giving us this scenario, He went on to write that God is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath. This tells us two things: the sudden destruction is his wrath. It is the start of the Day of the Lord.  Our appointment is with Him in heaven.

[iamlamad]

48 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

These elders are not individuals but representative entities.  The pattern of dividing the priests into 24 groups was established by King David in 1 Chronicles 24.  These elders are both kings and priests:  Only the redeemed from Shavuot (Pentecost) onward are individually referenced that way.

The scripture gives no links between the 24 elders and those priests David divided into 24 groups - that is no link except the number 24. In other words, no one really knows of the 24 courses for the priests has ANYTHING to do with the 24 elders. They may, or they may not.

Neither does anyone know if they are individuals or representatives  - for John does not tell us. 

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

His takeover will certainly be "hostile" from earth's point of view!  We could also add He will come from outer space!

Shalom, iamlamad.

Well said! Amen!

[Revelation Man]

On 5/28/2019 at 7:59 AM, Last Daze said:

Except that the 24 elders were there before the Lamb overcame and was found worthy.

• And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”  Revelation 5:2-5

Suggesting that John just didn't recognize the Lamb isn't true to the text.  The 24 elders were there when no one was able to open the book.  Who they are is uncertain, but they can't represent new covenant believers.  It wasn't until the Lamb overcame sin and death that anyone was found worthy to open the book. 

 

Where was Jesus then since you suppose he was not in Heaven ? The VERY SAME verse says there was NO MAN on EARTH nor UNDER THE EARTH, so where was Jesus ? To jump to these kind of conclusions on ONE VERSE is what makes people go down wrong paths. The bible is very clear all this happens at the exact midpoint of the 70th week, which starts after the Church is Raptured. The Anti-Christ reneges in the middle of the week {MoW} also. 

 

The verse you cite says no such thing as pertaining to Jesus not being in Heaven, Jesus was indeed in Heaven even at the time John wrote the BoR, and these are the things that will be HEREAFTER !! The Church Age ends then the HEREAFTER comes, just because we are given a betrayal of the WORTHINESS of the Lamb of God in this instance, doesn't mean Jesus was not in Heaven. By the way, Jesus is not a man in reality, he is God. So no man was worthy but the Lamb of God was worthy indeed, and he was Worthy when Rev. was written, and he was Worthy from the beginning because the bible says Jesus was slain before the Foundations of the earth.

People can't take one verse and diverge all of one's Eschatology on that alone, that is the way people veer off course.

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Last Daze]

4 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Where was Jesus the since you suppose he was not in Heaven ?

There was a point in time when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.  You'll figure it out.