Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[JoeCanada]

On 5/27/2019 at 11:36 AM, iamlamad said:

It is OK that you don't agree now. Just hold on! It will not be long before the rapture and then we will all know. Just so you know, there are many things in the New Testament not covered by the Old. There is nothing in the Old about the earth-lease book in the Father's right hand.  It is mentioned ONLY in the book of Revelation.  

I really don't know why you have such difficulty here: It is absolute FACT John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the Father. So either He was NOT THERE as I think the scripture is showing us, or He was just not seen. Which seems most likely? Can you even imagine the Christ, the Son of the Living God, the second person of the Godhead NOT BEEN SEEN? I cannot even fathom such a thing! We have over a dozen verses telling us that Jesus SHOULD HAVE been seen there.  Then we have my personal testimony of Jesus asked me "WHY WAS I NOT SEEN at the right hand of the father when there are  over a dozen verses saying that is where I went to be." 

Psalm 16:8

I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.

Psalm 110:1

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

 

There goes your Old Testament argument - or lack thereof!

 

 

 

I tried hard to figure out your ramblings about Rev 4 and 5. Here then, is what I found from Scripture....both Old and New Testaments.

A THRONE is set up in heaven.

A THRONE is a seat of authority.

The THRONE in heaven is the THRONE of God, from which He maintains sovereignty over all.

God governs from His THRONE in righteousness and justice:

Psalm 9:4-8..... - For You have maintained my right and my cause; You sat on the throne judging in righteousness. You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked; You have blotted out their name forever and ever. O enemy, destruction's are finished forever! And you have destroyed cities; even their memory has perished. But the LORD shall endure forever; He has prepared His throne for judgment. He shall judge the world in righteousness, and He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.

Psalm 89:14......Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; mercy and truth go before Your face.

Many believe that the ONE seated on the THRONE is God the Father. However, The Father cannot be seen by anyone:

John 1:18.......No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Scripture is clear that Jesus is the only physical form of the invisible God:

Colossians 1:15.....He is the image of the invisible God

Now, look at Rev 4:3:

And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance, and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance.

In the Old Testament, the last and first stones on the breastplate of judgment worn by the high priest are the sardius and jasper stones...Exod 28:4, 15-21

These stones represent the twelve tribes of Israel. the first and last sons were Reuben and Benjamin. Benjamin means ""Son of the right hand" (Gen 35:18) and Reuben means " The Lord has looked upon my affliction" (Gen 29:32)

Therefore, the jasper and sardius stones show that the One who sits on the throne is the "Son of the right hand, who was afflicted"

Note that Jesus does not sit at the right hand of any likeness of the Father. Rather, the Son sits at the right hand of the "power of God"

Luke 22:69...... Hereafter, the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God"

Jesus calls Himself the "First and the Last....(Rev 1:11). As just shown, the first and last stones on the breastplate of judgment, worn by the high priest....(Jesus is our High Priest...Heb 4: 14-16), represent Jesus.

Rev 4:3..... and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald......

The rainbow is a sign of the covenant that God made with the earth, that He would never destroy all flesh with a flood again...(Gen 9:13-17)

The rainbow that John sees is different from the rainbow we see. The rainbow in Heaven appears as hues of an emerald.  The emerald was the third stone in the breastplate of judgment of the high priest....( Exodus 28:17)

This stone represents the tribe of Levi. Levi means...."My husband will be joined unto me".....(Gen 29:34)

The Church is the "Bride of Christ" who is joined in "one spirit with Him".

Let's talk about the 24 elders.

They are dressed in white garments and have golden crowns on their heads.

These are from the "first fruits resurrection"....resurrected when Christ led a train of captives to heaven.

"They fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne saying...."(Rev 4:10)

" Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created".....Rev 4: 11 .....( All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him, nothing came into being that has come into being..John 1:3)

How is it then, that you can state that Jesus was not in the THRONE room.

Scripture totally REFUTES the things you say!

 

 

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Let me see if I am following you. Are you saying that chapters 4 and 5 give us the context and timing of the first seal? For once we can agree. We can see the Church in heaven in Revelation 5 . They were redeemed from the earth before any seals were opened. The Tribulation occurs during the 1st 5 seals. Jesus returns in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth in the 6th seal as confirmed by Matthew 24. Then the wrath of God, the day of the Lord begins.

Hi Light,

If you are meaning Rev 5:10 to show the church in heaven....."You have made them (us) to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they (we) will reign upon the earth"....( NASB and King James in brackets)....then I must disagree with you.

The King James contains "us"and "we".....  which are absent from the NASB and many other translations. 

If we look at verse 9...."“And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.” (Revelation 5:9 NASB)

Though there are not many manuscript witnesses that testify to “purchased for God,” .........it is supported by the best witness to Revelation, Codex A

From what I found thru research, there was a scribal tendency to “clarify” ambiguous readings. And in this case, it makes much more sense that a scribe would add an object to clarify who is being purchased, rather than a scribe omitting the object of God’s purchasing. That is to say, there was a scribal tendency to “clarify” ambiguous readings.

Also......since the four living creatures are clearly celestial beings, it is absurd to argue that they have been redeemed. Would you not agree?

 

[Last Daze]

8 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Also......since the four living creatures are clearly celestial beings, it is absurd to argue that they have been redeemed. Would you not agree?

Good point there Joe.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I tried hard to figure out your ramblings about Rev 4 and 5. Here then, is what I found from Scripture....both Old and New Testaments.

A THRONE is set up in heaven.

A THRONE is a seat of authority.

The THRONE in heaven is the THRONE of God, from which He maintains sovereignty over all.

God governs from His THRONE in righteousness and justice:

Psalm 9:4-8..... - For You have maintained my right and my cause; You sat on the throne judging in righteousness. You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked; You have blotted out their name forever and ever. O enemy, destruction's are finished forever! And you have destroyed cities; even their memory has perished. But the LORD shall endure forever; He has prepared His throne for judgment. He shall judge the world in righteousness, and He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.

Psalm 89:14......Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; mercy and truth go before Your face.

Many believe that the ONE seated on the THRONE is God the Father. However, The Father cannot be seen by anyone:

John 1:18.......No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Scripture is clear that Jesus is the only physical form of the invisible God:

Colossians 1:15.....He is the image of the invisible God

Now, look at Rev 4:3:

And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance, and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance.

In the Old Testament, the last and first stones on the breastplate of judgment worn by the high priest are the sardius and jasper stones...Exod 28:4, 15-21

These stones represent the twelve tribes of Israel. the first and last sons were Reuben and Benjamin. Benjamin means ""Son of the right hand" (Gen 35:18) and Reuben means " The Lord has looked upon my affliction" (Gen 29:32)

Therefore, the jasper and sardius stones show that the One who sits on the throne is the "Son of the right hand, who was afflicted"

Note that Jesus does not sit at the right hand of any likeness of the Father. Rather, the Son sits at the right hand of the "power of God"

Luke 22:69...... Hereafter, the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God"

Jesus calls Himself the "First and the Last....(Rev 1:11). As just shown, the first and last stones on the breastplate of judgment, worn by the high priest....(Jesus is our High Priest...Heb 4: 14-16), represent Jesus.

Rev 4:3..... and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald......

The rainbow is a sign of the covenant that God made with the earth, that He would never destroy all flesh with a flood again...(Gen 9:13-17)

The rainbow that John sees is different from the rainbow we see. The rainbow in Heaven appears as hues of an emerald.  The emerald was the third stone in the breastplate of judgment of the high priest....( Exodus 28:17)

This stone represents the tribe of Levi. Levi means...."My husband will be joined unto me".....(Gen 29:34)

The Church is the "Bride of Christ" who is joined in "one spirit with Him".

Let's talk about the 24 elders.

They are dressed in white garments and have golden crowns on their heads.

These are from the "first fruits resurrection"....resurrected when Christ led a train of captives to heaven.

"They fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne saying...."(Rev 4:10)

" Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created".....Rev 4: 11 .....( All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him, nothing came into being that has come into being..John 1:3)

How is it then, that you can state that Jesus was not in the THRONE room.

Scripture totally REFUTES the things you say!

What I have written came straight from the scriptures - yet you say "rambling.."

All one has to do is read and believe what is read - it sounds so simple - yet people like you prove it is not so simple: preconceived theories block what the scriptures are actually saying. 

You quoted a verse, yet don't believe it. There are a dozen more that say the same thing: Jesus went to be at the right hand of the Father.

Luke 22:69...... Hereafter, the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God"

Now look and read what John saw:  

² And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

³ And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

⁴ And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

What is missing here? God is on the throne but there is NO JESUS at His right hand. I guess from your ramblings that you are thinking it is JESUS on the throne.  Yet the verse you quoted tells us He went to be AT THE RIGHT HAND of the Power of God.  Look what Stephen saw:

Acts 7:56

And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

 

It appears then that you don't understand what Jesus meant when He said no man had ever seen God. Isaiah saw Him. Ezekiel saw Him, and in fact, here in Rev. 4 John saw Him. Therefore we must qualify what Jesus said: perhaps no man has seen God (the Father) face to face.  Perhaps no man has seen the ENTIRE God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit as ONE. What we know is, Stephen saw God and Jesus at His right hand. Did Stephen lie? No. We KNOW Jesus was not lying. Neither was lying. Both are true: therefore we must qualify what Jesus said. Men HAVE seen Father God; not clearly, not face to face, but as a BEING seated on a throne.

 

Therefore you have missed the first clue to understanding the Author's intent in chapter 4: God the Father was there but Jesus the SOn was not. Why is that so hard to believe: you KNOW there was around 32 years when Jesus was on earth and NOT at the Father's right hand.

 

The second clue is that a search was made for one worthy to open the book - yet that first search John watched ended in failure.  Jesus asked me personally, WHY was He not found in that first search. At the time I could not answer Him. There is a very good reason why He was not found in that first search. Perhaps you would like to answer it.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

Let me see if I am following you. Are you saying that chapters 4 and 5 give us the context and timing of the first seal? For once we can agree. We can see the Church in heaven in Revelation 5 . They were redeemed from the earth before any seals were opened. The Tribulation occurs during the 1st 5 seals. Jesus returns in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth in the 6th seal as confirmed by Matthew 24. Then the wrath of God, the day of the Lord begins.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying: if we truly believe what John wrote in these two chapters, there can be no question but that Jesus began opening the seals on the book as soon as He ascended.  No, only you it seems sees the church in heaven in chapter 5. We see JESUS as He ascended show up in the throne room! But not the church. the church is seen in heaven in chapter 7, as the crowd too large to number. No, the church was NOT redeemed from the earth before any seal. Jesus paid the way for them to be redeemed. 

The "tribulation" is in seals 1-5? That is myth. But what do you MEAN by "the tribulation?" Do you mean the every day tribulation that Christians face day by day? Or perhaps you mean the 70th week that will include a midpoint, an abomination and then days of great tribulation. Would you include the days of great tribulation in your "the trib" that will be in seals 1-5? 

I think you have swallowed the prewrath error hook, line, and sinker. Why did you not study it? It was in error when Rosenthal and Van Kampen started it!  They were wrong. But I will hold my peace until you answer my questions.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Who will remain to go into the Messianic kingdom as mortals?

When I said "all" destroyed at the 7th vial, I meant cities and buildings, not people. Of course people will survive from the nations. And from those that fled into the wilderness. But the sheep and goat judgment of the nations will thin them out, many then being cast into everlasting punishment.  So the sheep from that judgment, plus those that fled into the wilderness, plus any other Hebrews that survived the Beast and puts their trust in Christ will enter the millennial Kingdom in natural bodies. From 7 billion today, perhaps the numbers then will be in the millions, not billions.

[OldCoot]

18 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

When I said "all" destroyed at the 7th vial, I meant cities and buildings, not people. Of course people will survive from the nations. And from those that fled into the wilderness. But the sheep and goat judgment of the nations will thin them out, many then being cast into everlasting punishment.  So the sheep from that judgment, plus those that fled into the wilderness, plus any other Hebrews that survived the Beast and puts their trust in Christ will enter the millennial Kingdom in natural bodies. From 7 billion today, perhaps the numbers then will be in the millions, not billions.

Ok.  I think we are on the same page with that.

[The Light]

54 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Quote

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying: if we truly believe what John wrote in these two chapters, there can be no question but that Jesus began opening the seals on the book as soon as He ascended.

What you are saying does not agree with scripture. No seals have been opened. We can confirm this by Matthew 24.

Quote

  No, only you it seems sees the church in heaven in chapter 5.

Seems like Revelation Man also sees the church in heaven in Rev 5. I have never heard of anyone that agrees with what you are saying as there is absolutely no scriptural support.

Quote

We see JESUS as He ascended show up in the throne room! But not the church. the church is seen in heaven in chapter 7, as the crowd too large to number. No, the church was NOT redeemed from the earth before any seal. Jesus paid the way for them to be redeemed. 

No, we see the church in heaven in Rev 5. We the great multitude of Rev 7 is all the believers, which is the Church and the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth that are in the harvest of Rev 14.

Quote

The "tribulation" is in seals 1-5? That is myth.

Right, and that verse, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION is myth also?

Quote

But what do you MEAN by "the tribulation?" Do you mean the every day tribulation that Christians face day by day?

No, I mean the tribulation as in the tribulation spoken of, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. That's the tribulation I'm referring to. The same one in Matthew.

Quote

Or perhaps you mean the 70th week that will include a midpoint, an abomination and then days of great tribulation. Would you include the days of great tribulation in your "the trib" that will be in seals 1-5? 

Sure, but I have great doubt you have any clue whatsoever about the timeline you just spoke of. The word midpoint instead of midst is the tip-off.

Quote

I think you have swallowed the prewrath error hook, line, and sinker. Why did you not study it? It was in error when Rosenthal and Van Kampen started it!  They were wrong. But I will hold my peace until you answer my questions.

Those guys are in error, though I have not read their book or studied what they believe. Sure there is a prewrath rapture, but they miss the pretrib rapture which we can prove by Rev 4and 5. We can also prove by the feasts of God. We can also prove by the parable of the fig tree. We can also prove by the harvest sequence. The list goes on and on.

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by The Light

[iamlamad]

4 minutes ago, The Light said:

What you are saying does not agree with scripture. No seals have been opened. We can confirm this by Matthew 24.

Seems like Revelation Man also sees the church in heaven in Rev 5. I have never heard of anyone that agrees with what you are saying as there is absolutely no scriptural support.

No, we see the church in heaven in Rev 5. We the great multitude of Rev 7 is all the believers, which is the Church and the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth that are in the harvest of Rev 14.

  Quote

You said that wrong: allow me to assist: What you are saying does not agree with [my theory of] scripture.

What do you mean, "no scriptural support?" Everything I post comes straight from the scriptures! The problem is, too many people read with preconceived glasses so don't get the true message.

"no support!" How silly. My first argument is that Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4, when John looked into the throne room. Yet we have over a dozen verses telling us that is where He SHOULD BE in 95 AD. My second point is that in the first search john watched for one worthy to open the book, "no man was found." You can disagree "till the cows come home" but you will still be wrong when the cows are in the barn. The question you must answer is, WHY no man was found in this search - and your answer must also relate to Jesus not being seen at the right hand of the Father. Another point: the Holy Spirit was seen by John in chapter 4, but Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. now you have three problems to solve. Your answer must explain all three things.

It does not really matter HOW MANY "see" the church in heaven in Rev. 5. God does not see the church in heaven until chapter 7. Could you please show us all what verse or verses in chapter 5 tell you the church is there? Also the verse when they got there.

[OldCoot]

8 hours ago, Last Daze said:

In the beginning was the Word.  Jesus, the man, was conceived by the Holy Spirit.  Keep trying.

Then who was it who showed up at Mamre and had ate a meal with Abraham?   And who was it that encountered Joshua and claimed to be commander of the army of the Lord and told Joshua to take off his sandals for he stood on holy ground?   Only Yeshua in both instances.

So while it is true that the Holy Spirit placed Yeshua in the womb of Mary, Yeshua had already shown up several times prior to that as a physical man who talked and ate with men.  And He was acknowledged by men that He was the Lord.  And even contrary to any Vegans who might be in the group, He ate calf and milk.  Just had to put that little nugget in there!