Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[OldCoot]

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Did Jesus' blood remove THEIR sins? Did His blood redeem THEM to God?

Yes, they are redeemed in the same manner.  That doesn't mean they are in the same category as the NT redeemed.  That doesn't mean the OT saints are somehow inferior to NT saints.  It simply means they are not the same category.    

It is similar to this.  All the created host of heaven are servants of Yahweh. But they are of different categories also. Each equal before the Lord, but each having a unique role they are assigned to.  Some are angels (messengers), some are Seraphs, some Cherubs, some arch angels.  Some only bring announcements or messages, some actually fight battles with the evil ones. 

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Do you believe Jesus left heaven to be born of a virgin? Can you find that in the Old?

Isaiah 7:14

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Can you find He had to die in the Old? 

Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, etc. A long list on that one.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Can you find that God would not allow His body to corrupt in the old? Therefore He MUST RISE in the Old Testament.

Psalms 16:10 which is known in both Jewish and Christian camps as a Messianic Psalm.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Can you find that He would ascend back on High in the Old - to sit at the right hand of God?

Psalms 110:1 and Hosea 5:14-15.   And the implication in the Hosea passage is for Him to return to His place, He had to have left it.  See Isaiah 7:14 above.  And it also states that He would not return here again until the Hebrew people, specifically the leadership of Israel, acknowledges their offense of rejecting Him.  Affirmed in Matthew 23:39.  

Were you aware of that one?

Edited May 30, 2019 by OldCoot
Spelling. Stupid spell checker!

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

What you are having problems with is seeing these events in the words of chapters 4 & 5. All I can say is, take off your preconceived glasses and read closer.  You KNOW it is fact: John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the father. You imagine He was there, but Jesus TOLD ME it was while He was on earth. Since you KNOW He spent time on earth, why not at least TRY and see this as a possibility? 

Look, I could say the same thing towards you.  It really means nothing.  Peter not only heard Yeshua, but walked, ate, slept, etc with Him for over 3 years.  Yet, Peter said we have a more sure testimony of the scripture.  Even with His extensive interaction with Yeshua, he did not rely on it, and told us to rely on the scripture more.  In other words, as the HS says, we are to test all things.  That is all I am doing with you.  Testing.  and I have not seen any support for your position from the OT, which again, the HS sets as the standard.  Both OT and NT must support any  doctrine.

I am not saying it is the case with you, but Paul warned us that Satan can transform himself as an angel of light. We can think that we heard from Yeshua, but it may not be so.  The only way to confirm is thru His Word, and He shows us how to do that by setting the standard of both OT and NT confirmation.

Edited May 30, 2019 by OldCoot

[Revelation Man]

10 hours ago, Last Daze said:

In the beginning was the Word.  Jesus, the man, was conceived by the Holy Spirit.  Keep trying.

Wow, you don't get it do you ? 

Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air..

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit have ALWAYS BEEN !! 

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus is eternal, these are basic tenets of Christendom. 

It boggles my mind how people venture way off course on ONE VERSE. 

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I tried hard to figure out your ramblings about Rev 4 and 5. Here then, is what I found from Scripture....both Old and New Testaments.

A THRONE is set up in heaven.

A THRONE is a seat of authority.

The THRONE in heaven is the THRONE of God, from which He maintains sovereignty over all.

God governs from His THRONE in righteousness and justice:

Psalm 9:4-8..... - For You have maintained my right and my cause; You sat on the throne judging in righteousness. You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked; You have blotted out their name forever and ever. O enemy, destruction's are finished forever! And you have destroyed cities; even their memory has perished. But the LORD shall endure forever; He has prepared His throne for judgment. He shall judge the world in righteousness, and He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.

Psalm 89:14......Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; mercy and truth go before Your face.

Many believe that the ONE seated on the THRONE is God the Father. However, The Father cannot be seen by anyone:

John 1:18.......No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Scripture is clear that Jesus is the only physical form of the invisible God:

Colossians 1:15.....He is the image of the invisible God

Now, look at Rev 4:3:

And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance, and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance.

In the Old Testament, the last and first stones on the breastplate of judgment worn by the high priest are the sardius and jasper stones...Exod 28:4, 15-21

These stones represent the twelve tribes of Israel. the first and last sons were Reuben and Benjamin. Benjamin means ""Son of the right hand" (Gen 35:18) and Reuben means " The Lord has looked upon my affliction" (Gen 29:32)

Therefore, the jasper and sardius stones show that the One who sits on the throne is the "Son of the right hand, who was afflicted"

Note that Jesus does not sit at the right hand of any likeness of the Father. Rather, the Son sits at the right hand of the "power of God"

Luke 22:69...... Hereafter, the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God"

Jesus calls Himself the "First and the Last....(Rev 1:11). As just shown, the first and last stones on the breastplate of judgment, worn by the high priest....(Jesus is our High Priest...Heb 4: 14-16), represent Jesus.

Rev 4:3..... and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald......

The rainbow is a sign of the covenant that God made with the earth, that He would never destroy all flesh with a flood again...(Gen 9:13-17)

The rainbow that John sees is different from the rainbow we see. The rainbow in Heaven appears as hues of an emerald.  The emerald was the third stone in the breastplate of judgment of the high priest....( Exodus 28:17)

This stone represents the tribe of Levi. Levi means...."My husband will be joined unto me".....(Gen 29:34)

The Church is the "Bride of Christ" who is joined in "one spirit with Him".

Let's talk about the 24 elders.

They are dressed in white garments and have golden crowns on their heads.

These are from the "first fruits resurrection"....resurrected when Christ led a train of captives to heaven.

"They fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne saying...."(Rev 4:10)

" Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created".....Rev 4: 11 .....( All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him, nothing came into being that has come into being..John 1:3)

How is it then, that you can state that Jesus was not in the THRONE room.

Scripture totally REFUTES the things you say!

 

 

Good stuff here brother......I disagree a wee bit in that I don't think any men {save Elijah/Moses maybe} are in Heaven before the Rapture. But that wasn't my point of this reply. 

 

I see you are into the Breastplates of the High Priests, the colors/stones. Now read Rev. 9 {the Two Woes} and check out the Locusts {Demons} have Breastplates of Iron {Like Rome} and the 200 Million Army have Breastplates just like the High priests of Israel as per the colors. Check it out. 

That is why I contend {one of many reasons} the 200 Million is an Angelic Army of God bringing Plagues on mankind.

Its not 200 million Chinamen.

[Last Daze]

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Then who was it who showed up at Mamre and had ate a meal with Abraham?   And who was it that encountered Joshua and claimed to be commander of the army of the Lord and told Joshua to take off his sandals for he stood on holy ground?   Only Yeshua in both instances.

So while it is true that the Holy Spirit placed Yeshua in the womb of Mary, Yeshua had already shown up several times prior to that as a physical man who talked and ate with men.  And He was acknowledged by men that He was the Lord. 

I can agree with that but it wasn't until He entered the world as a man enters the world (born of a woman) that he overcame the world and was found worthy to be given all authority in heaven and on earth.

• And one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”  Rev 5:5

The single criterion for opening the book is overcoming.  Did the person at Mamre accomplish that?  No, because it could only be accomplished by someone born into the world.  There's a reason why we have forgiveness through Jesus and not an OT manifestation of the Word.

The throne room scene of Rev 4 & 5 establishes the Lamb as the only one worthy to open the book.  The reason He is worthy is because He overcame the world.  Prior to His victory over sin and death, no one had overcome the world.  The 24 elders and the 4 creatures were there in the throne room before the Lamb's victory over sin and death.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Look, I could say the same thing towards you.  It really means nothing.  Peter not only heard Yeshua, but walked, ate, slept, etc with Him for over 3 years.  Yet, Peter said we have a more sure testimony of the scripture.  Even with His extensive interaction with Yeshua, he did not rely on it, and told us to rely on the scripture more.  In other words, as the HS says, we are to test all things.  That is all I am doing with you.  Testing.  and I have not seen any support for your position from the OT, which again, the HS sets as the standard.  Both OT and NT must support any  doctrine.

I am not saying it is the case with you, but Paul warned us that Satan can transform himself as an angel of light. We can think that we heard from Yeshua, but it may not be so.  The only way to confirm is thru His Word, and He shows us how to do that by setting the standard of both OT and NT confirmation.

Everything I teach comes straight from Scripture. I may see it differently that some, because the Author taught me His intended meaning. There Is a more sure word: the very words written in Rev. 4 & 5. Just READ them without preconceptions and believe them. For example, it is an absolute fact written in words for all to understand that God showed John a vision of the throne room and for some reason it was a throne room where Jesus was NOT where Stephen saw Him: at the right hand of the Father. This is fact: it is TRUTH. What you DO with this truth is up to you. 

It is also FACT from words written by John that He watched a search for one worthy to open the book, and that search ended in failure. This is TRUTH straight from the "more sure word." What you do with this truth is up to you. As for me, I am going to believe what Jesus taught me, because it FITS this more sure word. 

The ONLY time Paul questioned who was speaking to him was on the road to Damascus. I suspect it was the first time He had ever heard God's voice. There is nothing recorded in scripture about all of Paul's vast revelations that he ever questioned if it was God teaching him. He was SO SURE of his revelation knowledge, he began teaching others long before he went up to Jerusalem to check with those who were "some what" among the brethren.  Much of the doctrine of the church today came straight from the revelation knowledge from God to Paul to his written epistles and so to the church. 

It is OK if you can't agree with the words Jesus spoke to me. I can only say, why don't you tell us all the REAL meaning of chapters 4 and : tell us all WHY God chose to show John a vision of the throne room where Jesus was NOT seen. Why in this vision John saw a search for one worthy to open the book that ended in failure. Explain to us the PURPOSE of chapters 4 & 5. Was God just wasting words? Why did we need to know that John wept? Why did we need to know he wept MUCH?  I ASKED God these two questions: His answer was, "it shows timing," and "It also shows the movement of time." 

You might ask yourself: can you see "timing" anywhere in these two chapters? Can you find any "movement" of time?  If you insist that all New Testament beliefs must also come from the Old Testament, you are then going to miss out on a big percentage of what the New Testament teaches.  The church has been passing out New Testaments by the millions. People used to pass them out in schools. I guess according to you, no one could get born again from the New Testament; they would have to confirm the Roman's road in the old FIRST. 

I have a novel idea: why not begin to meditate on these scriptures, pray much in the spirit, and wait on God to teach YOU this passage? He tells us in James that He gives wisdom liberally! Oh! Wait! You might have a problem: perhaps you can't pray "in the Spirit." Hmmm. This might be your biggest problem!  You won't find 1 Cor 14 in the Old Testament! 

 

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Good stuff here brother......I disagree a wee bit in that I don't think any men {save Elijah/Moses maybe} are in Heaven before the Rapture. But that wasn't my point of this reply. 

 

I see you are into the Breastplates of the High Priests, the colors/stones. Now read Rev. 9 {the Two Woes} and check out the Locusts {Demons} have Breastplates of Iron {Like Rome} and the 200 Million Army have Breastplates just like the High priests of Israel as per the colors. Check it out. 

That is why I contend {one of many reasons} the 200 Million is an Angelic Army of God bringing Plagues on mankind.

Its not 200 million Chinamen.

Ha! For once I can agree with you! Hallelujah! 

[OldCoot]

4 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I can agree with that but it wasn't until He entered the world as a man enters the world (born of a woman) that he overcame the world and was found worthy to be given all authority in heaven and on earth.

• And one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”  Rev 5:5

The single criterion for opening the book is overcoming.  Did the person at Mamre accomplish that?  No, because it could only be accomplished by someone born into the world.  There's a reason why we have forgiveness through Jesus and not an OT manifestation of the Word.

The throne room scene of Rev 4 & 5 establishes the Lamb as the only one worthy to open the book.  The reason He is worthy is because He overcame the world.  Prior to His victory over sin and death, no one had overcome the world.  The 24 elders and the 4 creatures were there in the throne room before the Lamb's victory over sin and death.

On that last part, that the elders were there before He overcame, you will need some serious scripture support outside of the book of Revelation to sell that view and counter what I am convinced is scripture support for the Elders being the church.  

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Wow, you don't get it do you ? 

Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air..

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit have ALWAYS BEEN !! 

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus is eternal, these are basic tenets of Christendom. 

It boggles my mind how people venture way off course on ONE VERSE. 

Why is it when someone disagrees with you - it is always the other that "don't get it?" I guess you are the infallible one here. 

OF COURSE Jesus as the 2nd person of the trinity has always been. NO ONE HERE is denying that. But it is an absolute fact that in some point in the TIME that God has created, the second person of the trinity left the "ivory palaces" and came to earth to be born of a virgin - to take on the flesh of human beings. WHY? Because in the mind of God, sin CANNOT be remitted without the shedding of blood. But also in God's mind: the blood of bulls and goats - innocent animals - can NEVER remove sin or the guilt of sin. The truth here is, GOD needed blood - but GOD is a spirit being with no blood! He had to become human to get human blood - but He had to keep His blood righteous with no sin. 

The truth here is, we will never know the cost to have our sins forgiven.