Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Isaiah 7:14

Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, etc. A long list on that one.

Psalms 16:10 which is known in both Jewish and Christian camps as a Messianic Psalm.

Psalms 110:1 and Hosea 5:14-15.   And the implication in the Hosea passage is for Him to return to His place, He had to have left it.  See Isaiah 7:14 above.  And it also states that He would not return here again until the Hebrew people, specifically the leadership of Israel, acknowledges their offense of rejecting Him.  Affirmed in Matthew 23:39.  

Were you aware of that one?

Good. You answered as I expected: all these things are found in the Old Testament. 

Now, if you can come up with a good exegesis of chapters 4 and 5, explaining why God would show John God seated on the throne but Jesus NOT at His right hand, explaining why God would show John a search for one worthy to open the book that ended in failure, explaining why God would then show John a search that DID find someone worthy, why God would show Jesus suddenly in the throne room appearing as a lamb having been slain - when all these things should have been common knowledge to John in 95 AD. Do you insist everything here is suppose to be "things to come?" Explain how these things were "things to come" to John. 

In other words, instead of disagreeing with everyone else here, SHOW US THE REAL MEANING so we can learn. 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Yes, they are redeemed in the same manner.  That doesn't mean they are in the same category as the NT redeemed.  That doesn't mean the OT saints are somehow inferior to NT saints.  It simply means they are not the same category.    

It is similar to this.  All the created host of heaven are servants of Yahweh. But they are of different categories also. Each equal before the Lord, but each having a unique role they are assigned to.  Some are angels (messengers), some are Seraphs, some Cherubs, some arch angels.  Some only bring announcements or messages, some actually fight battles with the evil ones. 

 

I agree: but can you prove by scripture that these 24 MUST be only New Testament saints? And can you prove they are resurrected New Testament saints?

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

No.  You cannot find one time that OT saints are even categorized the same as NT saints.

Not once are OT saints told they will have crowns.  NT saints are. 

Not once are OT saints told that they will reign with a rod of iron just as Yeshua will.  The NT saints are.  

Nowhere are the OT saints even given the illustration that they constitute the body of Yeshua and more specifically, are the bride of Yeshua.  The NT saints are.

It is true that Israel was to be a nation of priests before the Lord, but never a royal priesthood like the NT saints are called by Peter.

Good. One more question: can you prove by scripture that these are resurrected NT saints? 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, OldCoot said:

That is true in a general sense. But in regards to doctrine, it the standard established in the Torah and affirmed by the Berean example in Acts 17.  And they got the HS stamp of approval.   They searched the scriptures to see if what Paul taught them was true.  Paul's teachings make the lion's shared of doctrinal positions in the NT.  It can be argued effectively that Romans is Paul's systematic theology for the church.   For the Bereans to accept his teaching, it had to be also exhibited in the OT.  And for holding to that, they were commended.

Your position involves some heavy duty doctrine.  You are stating that the seals started being opened as soon as Yeshua ascended.  For that to be true, then the redeemed are not removed.  I contend the elders of Revelation 4 onward are the church, as their description mirrors the description of the redeemed of the church, being kings and priests and redeemed, and they are divided into 24 as was the priests during King David's reign. So the seals are not opened yet as the church has not been removed.  Isaiah, Zechariah, Jeremiah, and yes, even King David in the Psalms all support a removal of the righteous before these things.   So, it falls upon you to show from the OT the counter of that to support you assertion, that the judgements of those seals occurs before the righteous are removed. 

Even the 4th seal in Revelation is explicitly referenced in Isaiah 28.  And that passage has the end times / Day of the Lord in view.

I think I am only stating what John wrote. I remind you that just before Jesus got the book from the Father, John wrote that He suddenly appeared in the throne room. Remember, the way God showed this vision to John, John DID NOT SEE HIM before this verse: it appears then that Jesus suddenly appeared in the throne room where a moment before He was not there. And then John just added as a finishing touch that the Holy Spirit was sent down. I ask you: WHEN was the Holy Spirit sent down? Was God just reminding John that the HS was sent down, or was this verse to show John TIMING?  With the two thoughts together: Jesus suddenly appearing, and then the HS sent down seems to me to give us TIMING - the very word God spoke to me. Therefore, don't blame me: I am just understanding what is written! I did not write it. 

What do you mean: "the redeemed are not removed?"  I don't understand that. Have you read this text in another translation? Notice how the NIV puts it:

9And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll

and to open its seals,

because you were slain,

and with your blood you purchased for God

persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,

and they will reign ^b on the earth.”

This puts a whole new spin on it: You see, they don't have to be NT saints at all. Did you notice who the THEY is? It includes the four Beasts! Were THEY redeemed? Perhaps you have never read: The Received Text from Erasmus that the KJV translators used:

Although much credit is due to Erasmus for having made a Greek text available at all, the text which he presented was not of good quality. The half dozen manuscripts used by Erasmus were all of late origin. Most, if not all, were from the fifteenth century, while two may have been made as early as the twelfth century. He had only one manuscript which contained the book of Revelation, and it was missing the final leaf...  http://www.bible.ca/b-kjv-only.htm#smelser

We find many more differences between the KJV and newer translations in the book of Revelation than in any other book of the New Testament. I love the KJV, but here it seems new translations make more sense.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by iamlamad

[Revelation Man]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The way I read it, the whole event begins SUDDENLY, when the bodies of the dead in Christ fly up out of their graves - at a time when people are thinking and probably saying, "peace and safely."

First off, no dead bodies are going to fly out of the Graves, the Spirit bodies will go to Heaven, they are raised mili-seconds before the living in Christ DIE putting off {shedding} their Flesh bodies which have corruption {Sin Flesh}. The Dead in Christ are raised incorruptible, meaning without flesh bodies tainted by SIN. We get our bodies in Heaven {that is the White Robes we receive.}

The Peace and Safety are people thinking they are safe at about the midway point of the 70th Week, but it ecompasses a much differet time point to us Christians, as soon as the Rapture happens, we understand what those left will go through, THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND at all, they are thinking Peace & Safety, but the [at the exact midway point] Sudden Destruction will fall on them. Paul thus tells the Thessalonians {who were worried that they were in the DOTL} that those of the LIGHT didn't have to worry about those DARK TIMES, for as he says, we ARE NOT children of the Dark !! So we will not be there, we will have been Raptured pre 70th week.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

{{{ So what is Paul saying here ? Well he's saying the DOTL can not fall on those in Christ {in the Light} and YOU KNOW THIS {or are supposed to know this} so why are you worried about going through God's Wrath !! For they shall say {those in the DOTL, which we will not be in....HENCE....THEY....} Peace and Safety, then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION will come upon them......THEM....Thus Paul's point unto them, DON'T FEAR that you will be going through God's Wrath or the DOTL, you won't be here, you will be Raptured to Heaven. THEY SHALL NOT ESCAPE.....But you my brothers are CHILDREN OF THE LIGHT or of Jesus Christ, not children of the Darkness that THAT DAY {DOTL} should overtake you. }}}

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

{{{ Paul is saying let us stay WOKE {Hip to the facts}, for they that sleep {those in Satan who are not WOKE to the facts} are deceived by Satan/The Dark. We need to put on Christ/the Armor of God every day....Amen. }}}

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

{{{ Paul is saying, we are not appointed to Wrath, we are not going to be here during the 70th week. }}}

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Then, one microsecond later, or sooner, two different groups of people get two different results: those living in the light of the gospel (in Christ) get raptured, and so get to "live together with Him," while those living in the darkness get "sudden destruction." 

The ONE MILISECOND you are referencing is nowhere in the verbiage brother. THEY...THEM....mean those no Raptured will think they have PEACE but then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION will come upon them, but you Thessalonians can not go through that Wrath !! That is all it meas, its not THE RAPTURE then a mili-second later Wrath. Where do you even get this kind of thinking from brother ? Your sense/PERCEPTION of timing is just not there whilst reading the KJV, have you ever tried reading another version ? The truth is some people just can't get the KJV in its odd writing form of Olde English.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

All this just a tiny tiny moment after the dead in Christ have risen. What then is this "sudden destruction?"  I submit it will be a worldwide earthquake caused when God raises the bodies of those dead in Christ. Those caught up alive will just begin to feel the ground shake and they are caught up.

Nowhere does it say this, its referring to a coming DARKNESS that will befall THEM.....NOT US.....that is Paul's point, don't worry guys, you are not going to be in the DOTL. THEY ARE....{Children of the dark} The Rapture is a SILENT CALL that only we the Church hear. Our bodies will be left on earth, dead, thus it will be passed off as a Plague of some sort.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Paul did not stop there. After giving us this scenario, He went on to write that God is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath. This tells us two things: the sudden destruction is his wrath. It is the start of the Day of the Lord.  Our appointment is with Him in heaven.

Its Paul pointing out to the Thessalonians that they were worrying for nothing, we will be Raptured, the FALLING AWAY actually means the Rapture or DEPARTURE.

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Read 1 thes. 5: Paul tells us that his rapture event will come almost the same moment wrath begins. It seems the rapture will trigger the Day of the Lord. I did not write Revelation: JOHN did backed by the Holy Spirit. He caused John to write that the Day of wrath begins at the 6th seal- or if some wish to argue for the 7th I would not argue. 

The reason I replied to the other post first was to show this is not the case brother. It says no such thing, you just read it that way. The bible also does not say God's Wrath begins at the Sixth Seal,  would be careful saying these things as facts out loud...God might be listening...the Word says THEY UNDERSTAND that they are in the DOTL at the Sixth Seal, however its not relevant as the Sixth Seal is opened at the same time as the first 5, the first four are the Anti-Christ and his coming 42 MONTH REIGN on earth, and all the evil that will befall mankind during his reign, the 5th Seal testifies as per to why God's Wrath is running over, Seal number Six is God Announcing thus Wrath, but all 7 Seals are Gods/Lambs Wrath. Jesus opens them all.

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Revelation Man

[The Light]

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Quote

If you are meaning Rev 5:10 to show the church in heaven....."You have made them (us) to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they (we) will reign upon the earth"....( NASB and King James in brackets)....then I must disagree with you.

The King James contains "us"and "we".....  which are absent from the NASB and many other translations. 

If we look at verse 9...."“And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.” (Revelation 5:9 NASB)

Though there are not many manuscript witnesses that testify to “purchased for God,” .........it is supported by the best witness to Revelation, Codex A

From what I found thru research, there was a scribal tendency to “clarify” ambiguous readings. And in this case, it makes much more sense that a scribe would add an object to clarify who is being purchased, rather than a scribe omitting the object of God’s purchasing. That is to say, there was a scribal tendency to “clarify” ambiguous readings.

Hey Joe,

Near as I can tell the NASB and KJV can use different texts to translate from, but I am certainly no expert on this. I do know that the KJV is known for word for word translations and aren't in the habit of adding words like I have seen in other translations.

Quote

Also......since the four living creatures are clearly celestial beings, it is absurd to argue that they have been redeemed. Would you not agree?

Sure, I can agree with that Joe. However, I used to use the NASB until I saw how many times they used the incorrect words that completely changed the meaning of what was occurring. Don't know if that is happening in this case, but you make a good point.

 

 

 

 

[JoeCanada]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What I have written came straight from the scriptures - yet you say "rambling.."

All one has to do is read and believe what is read - it sounds so simple - yet people like you prove it is not so simple: preconceived theories block what the scriptures are actually saying. 

You quoted a verse, yet don't believe it. There are a dozen more that say the same thing: Jesus went to be at the right hand of the Father.

Luke 22:69...... Hereafter, the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God"

Now look and read what John saw:  

² And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

³ And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

⁴ And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

What is missing here? God is on the throne but there is NO JESUS at His right hand. I guess from your ramblings that you are thinking it is JESUS on the throne.  Yet the verse you quoted tells us He went to be AT THE RIGHT HAND of the Power of God.  Look what Stephen saw:

Acts 7:56

And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

 

It appears then that you don't understand what Jesus meant when He said no man had ever seen God. Isaiah saw Him. Ezekiel saw Him, and in fact, here in Rev. 4 John saw Him. Therefore we must qualify what Jesus said: perhaps no man has seen God (the Father) face to face.  Perhaps no man has seen the ENTIRE God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit as ONE. What we know is, Stephen saw God and Jesus at His right hand. Did Stephen lie? No. We KNOW Jesus was not lying. Neither was lying. Both are true: therefore we must qualify what Jesus said. Men HAVE seen Father God; not clearly, not face to face, but as a BEING seated on a throne.

 

Therefore you have missed the first clue to understanding the Author's intent in chapter 4: God the Father was there but Jesus the SOn was not. Why is that so hard to believe: you KNOW there was around 32 years when Jesus was on earth and NOT at the Father's right hand.

 

The second clue is that a search was made for one worthy to open the book - yet that first search John watched ended in failure.  Jesus asked me personally, WHY was He not found in that first search. At the time I could not answer Him. There is a very good reason why He was not found in that first search. Perhaps you would like to answer it.

Sure, I'll answer.

You said that Ezekiel and Isaiah saw HIM. Let's look at the scriptures:

Ezekiel saw Him

Ezekiel 10:1 - And I looked, and there in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubim, there appeared something like a sapphire stone, having the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

Ezekiel 1:26-28 - And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around. Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.

Isaiah saw Him.

Isaiah 6:1-5 - 

 In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. ² Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. ³ And one called out to another and said,

“Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,
The ^[a]whole earth is full of His glory.”

⁴ And the ^[b]foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the ^[c]temple was filling with smoke. ⁵ Then I said,

“Woe is me, for I am ruined!

Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.”

Isaiah 9:6-7 - For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

I don't believe that God the Father is the One who is sitting upon the throne of David. It is Jesus who will be sitting on the throne of David. 

John, in Rev 4:2, sees A Throne.....ONE THRONE....and describes the ONE on the throne.

Then, in Rev 4:4, he then says that there are 24 thrones.. These 24 thrones encompass the throne Jesus sits on. In other words, the area or platform on which the thrones sit, are all part of the THRONE OF GOD.

God revealed to Daniel that THRONES would be in place near His throne. The whole heavenly court is present when God judges the antichrist.

 Daniel 7:9-11 - I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire; a fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.. 

Look at the description of God the Father and His THRONE......His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire; a fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him

It is not anything like the scene John is describing in Rev 4:3>

 

John saw the Glory of the Risen Lord, as scripture plainly paints.

You WANT TO SEE God the Father there, but John is describing Jesus, on HIS THRONE.

You keep saying....."preconceived theories block what the scriptures are actually saying"......

Well, something we finally agree on. How about you take yours off and see what scripture is actually saying!

 

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

On that last part, that the elders were there before He overcame, you will need some serious scripture support outside of the book of Revelation to sell that view and counter what I am convinced is scripture support for the Elders being the church.  

As I understand your view, the 4 creatures and 24 elders claim to be redeemed by Lamb.  Ezekiel 1 is a good place to start.

This is another reason to take the NASB translation of "them" instead of "us" (Rev 5:10), as Joe Canada pointed out.  If you disagree then who are the four redeemed creatures of Rev 4 & 5 and Ezekiel 1?

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

As I understand your view, the 4 creatures and 24 elders claim to be redeemed by Lamb.  Ezekiel 1 is a good place to start.

This is another reason to take the NASB translation of "them" instead of "us" (Rev 5:10), as Joe Canada pointed out.  If you disagree then who are the four redeemed creatures of Rev 4 & 5 and Ezekiel 1?

The creatures are not called priests and kings like is said in the passage and by Peter ( even in the NASB) by him calling us a Royal Priesthood.  They do not sit on thrones like the Elders do.  So there are at least 3 conditions that differentiate the  creatures and elders. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by OldCoot

[Last Daze]

21 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

The creatures are not called priests and kings like is said in the passage and by Peter ( even in the NASB) by him calling us a Royal Priesthood.  They do not sit on thrones like the Elders do.  So there are at least 3 conditions that differentiate the  creatures and elders. 

Not going to sweat it.  They are who they are.  We'll know eventually I guess.  Blessings brother.