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Mid Trib rapture anyone?


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8 hours ago, The Light said:

What we can be sure of is that the Day of the Lord does not occur until the 6th seal.

Ok then, when does the antichrist come on the scene?   Which seal?

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On 6/14/2019 at 8:48 AM, The Light said:

Eze 38

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Those walls will be up until AFTER Christ returns with the armies of heaven.

Hi Light,

This is an article by Joel Richardson, author and scholar. There are a lot of great articles on his site....Joelstrumpet.com.....look at "free resources"

This isn't directed at you per say, but to anyone looking at a further explanation for the Gog-Magog....Rev 20...Ezekiel 38-39.

Ya, it's a wee bit lengthy, but it's a good read.

This should probably have its own thread, as its not really  part of a mid-trib rapture discussion.

 

Understanding the Timing of the Battle of Gog and Magog

Joel Richardson

The Prophet Ezekiel’s Prophecy of “the Battle of Gog of Magog,” is simply another retelling of the many Antichrist prophecies found throughout the Bible. As such, Ezekiel’s Gog and his hordes will be destroyed at the end of this current age, when Jesus returns, just before the onset of His one thousand year millennial reign. The Gog and Magog of Revelation 20, however is a different event that takes place at the end of the thousand year reign of the Messiah.

Amillennialists most often argue that the Gog and Magog described in Revelation 20 and the Gog and Magog described in Ezekiel 38-39 are one and the same. This is the primary view which I will seek to address in this article. A small number of Premillennialists also believe that Ezekiel’s Gog prophecy and Revelation’s Gog prophecy are one and the same. I will also briefly touch on this view.

First, let’s read the text in Revelation:

When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (Revelation 20:7-9)

So while it is clear that both Revelation and Ezekiel do indeed use the same terms to describe an event that shares some commonalities, (they both describe an attempted attack on God’s people), there are also some very clear distinction between both prophecies.

The first distinction is that the attempted invasion of Revelation’s account is described as an utter failure. Before the invaders even begin to accomplish their goals, they are consumed by fire outside of the camp of the saints. The invasion described in Ezekiel 38-39, on the other hand is described as anything but a failure. Consider this very important, but often overlooked detail in Ezekiel’s account: By the time that Ezekiel’s Gog Magog invasion is defeated, a majority of the people of Israel are described as captives, essentially prisoners of war in the land of their enemies.

“And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward. The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid My face from them. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, “Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name. They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 39:22-29)

The second distinction between Ezekiel’s Gog account and Revelation’s is that Revelation’s invaders do not even enter, “the camp of the saints,” but are devoured by fire as they merely surround the camp. On the other hand, the invaders of Ezekiel are destroyed throughout the actual land of Israel. These distinctions are not insignificant.

Why then the similarity of names? In my opinion, by the time of the writing of the Book of Revelation in the 1st century, the term Gog and Magog had become a well-known motif, similar to the common use of “armageddon” or “apocalypse” today. We might say for example something like, “It was a financial armageddon on Wall Street today.” This has nothing to do however, with the valley of Meggiddo in Israel. Such an expression simply points to nearly any great catastrophe. Because Ezekiel 38 and 39 was essentially the greatest prophetic passage in the Old Testament concerning the final Satanic invasion of Israel, it was what we may very rightly call, “the Armageddon of the Old Testament.” The phrase “Gog and Magog” simply came to be understood as a massive Satanic-led invasion or attack of God’s people in Jerusalem. So the Gog and Magog motif simply points to any massive effort by Satan to gather his hordes and attack to Israel. The Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38—39 and the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20 however, cannot be one and the same. Not only are they clearly separated by a thousand years, but as we already highlighted, their respective attacks have drastically different results. One is utterly successful, the other is an abysmal failure. While Ezekiel is referring to the Antichrist and the events that take place just prior to the Millennium, Revelation 20:7-9 is exactly what it says it is; a very brief event that takes place at the conclusion of the Millennium, one final effort by Satan to do what he had already failed to do just before being chained and cast into the abyss for a thousand years.

Living Securely in the Land

As mentioned above, there are also some Premillennialists who argue that Ezekiel’s Gog Magog event takes place at the end of the thousand year reign. The primary argument made is that Ezekiel describes Israel living with such a sense of security that it could only refer to Israel during the millennial reign of Jesus. To support this, the following passage is cited:

In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you; a mighty army. You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. (Ezekiel 38:14-16; 39:1-3)

This perspective is, in my opinion, untenable and cannot be reconciled with the testimony of Scripture. First, let’s begin by observing that Israel is not truly secure. They are living in fact, in a false state of security. Notice that Gog plans on attacking a people who are described as “unsuspecting”:

You will say, I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. (Ezekiel 38:12, 13)

I believe the issue of Israel living “securely” is merely a perceived sense of security. Consider the fact that the Israelites are about to be invaded. So are they truly living securely or merely living with a relative sense of security? If a person is sleeping securely in their bed and seven murderous and well-armed thieves are only moments away from breaking into the house to rob and kill, can it truly be said that the unsuspecting person sleeping is secure? Or it is merely a perceived security? Such is the precisely the case with Israel in Ezekiel’s prophecy.

I would also argue that while the Israel of today fully recognizes that various threats surround them, they are not presently suspecting any massive military invasion from a foreign nation. The sense in Israel is one of relative security. It is difficult not to see Ezekiel’s description of Israel as anything other than the Israel of today:

“After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.” (Ezekiel 38:8)

The Israel that Ezekiel describes is a people who have been gathered from many nations. They resettled the land which had formerly been a continual waste. And they are living securely. Now consider the fact that the Scriptures inform us that the Antichrist will lull Israel into a false state of security through deception, specifically for the purpose of invading the land:

He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power. (Daniel 8:25)

He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue. (Daniel 11:21)

When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them and will achieve what neither his fathers nor his forefathers did. He will distribute plunder, loot and wealth among his followers. He will plot the overthrow of fortresses—but only for a time. (Daniel 11:24)

So we have seen that the method and scheme of the Antichrist is exactly that of Gog. When the people feel secure, then he will invade them. This is simply because they are simply one and the same individual.

Return of the Captives

Another critical matter is the fact that at the conclusion of Ezekiel’s prophecy concerning Gog and Magog, Israel is being portrayed as returning from the nations of their enemies as prisoners of war. After this, they all come to faith. The Lord pours His spirit on them. Is it at that time that Israel is restored. For that small number of Premillennialists who seek to move Ezekiel’s prophecy to the end of the Millennium, this creates an insurmountable problem. For if the Israelis are not delivered from out of the land of their enemies and do not come to faith until the end of the Millennium, then this would mean that after a thousand years on the earth, Jesus had accomplished essentially nothing in the way of providing security, salvation, or restoration. In such a scenario, Jesus could only be viewed as an impotent Messiah and King.

Further Arguments

Another issue is the fact that the Lord states that all of the other (preEzekielian) prophets spoke about Gog:

You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. (Ezekiel 38:17)

If all of the other prophets before Ezekiel spoke of the Gog invasion at the end of the Millennium, then where are these many references within the Scriptures? One will be very hard pressed to produce a single such reference, though it is quite easy to find many prophecies about the Antichrist among these prophets.

Conclusion

In conclusion, the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38—39 and the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20 are two different individuals and two different events, separated by a thousand years.

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5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Ok then, when does the antichrist come on the scene?   Which seal?

Now this is a tough question. It's much tougher than you may realize. I could tell you the answer is the first seal, the rider on the white horse. And if someone says that the rider on the white horse is the Antichrist, I would not argue as it only would only confuse things. I'd just roll with it.

I think you will find though that the rider on the white horse is the prince that shall come. He is not the Antichrist. The rider on the white horse is the 7th king. There will be an eighth king that will come who will be one of the seven.  The eighth king is the Antichrist, the King of Babylon, who has the wound of the sword and does live. I have never really studied what seal I thought he will come in. But I think I can figure that it is the 4th or 5th, most likely the 5th

This of course will be very confusing for you to understand as your timeline will not likely be anywhere near what mine will be.

 

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25 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Light,

This is an article by Joel Richardson, author and scholar. There are a lot of great articles on his site....Joelstrumpet.com.....look at "free resources"

This isn't directed at you per say, but to anyone looking at a further explanation for the Gog-Magog....Rev 20...Ezekiel 38-39.

Ya, it's a wee bit lengthy, but it's a good read.

This should probably have its own thread, as its not really  part of a mid-trib rapture discussion.

 

Understanding the Timing of the Battle of Gog and Magog

Joel Richardson

The Prophet Ezekiel’s Prophecy of “the Battle of Gog of Magog,” is simply another retelling of the many Antichrist prophecies found throughout the Bible. As such, Ezekiel’s Gog and his hordes will be destroyed at the end of this current age, when Jesus returns, just before the onset of His one thousand year millennial reign. The Gog and Magog of Revelation 20, however is a different event that takes place at the end of the thousand year reign of the Messiah.

Amillennialists most often argue that the Gog and Magog described in Revelation 20 and the Gog and Magog described in Ezekiel 38-39 are one and the same. This is the primary view which I will seek to address in this article. A small number of Premillennialists also believe that Ezekiel’s Gog prophecy and Revelation’s Gog prophecy are one and the same. I will also briefly touch on this view.

First, let’s read the text in Revelation:

When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (Revelation 20:7-9)

So while it is clear that both Revelation and Ezekiel do indeed use the same terms to describe an event that shares some commonalities, (they both describe an attempted attack on God’s people), there are also some very clear distinction between both prophecies.

The first distinction is that the attempted invasion of Revelation’s account is described as an utter failure. Before the invaders even begin to accomplish their goals, they are consumed by fire outside of the camp of the saints. The invasion described in Ezekiel 38-39, on the other hand is described as anything but a failure. Consider this very important, but often overlooked detail in Ezekiel’s account: By the time that Ezekiel’s Gog Magog invasion is defeated, a majority of the people of Israel are described as captives, essentially prisoners of war in the land of their enemies.

“And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward. The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid My face from them. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, “Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name. They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 39:22-29)

The second distinction between Ezekiel’s Gog account and Revelation’s is that Revelation’s invaders do not even enter, “the camp of the saints,” but are devoured by fire as they merely surround the camp. On the other hand, the invaders of Ezekiel are destroyed throughout the actual land of Israel. These distinctions are not insignificant.

Why then the similarity of names? In my opinion, by the time of the writing of the Book of Revelation in the 1st century, the term Gog and Magog had become a well-known motif, similar to the common use of “armageddon” or “apocalypse” today. We might say for example something like, “It was a financial armageddon on Wall Street today.” This has nothing to do however, with the valley of Meggiddo in Israel. Such an expression simply points to nearly any great catastrophe. Because Ezekiel 38 and 39 was essentially the greatest prophetic passage in the Old Testament concerning the final Satanic invasion of Israel, it was what we may very rightly call, “the Armageddon of the Old Testament.” The phrase “Gog and Magog” simply came to be understood as a massive Satanic-led invasion or attack of God’s people in Jerusalem. So the Gog and Magog motif simply points to any massive effort by Satan to gather his hordes and attack to Israel. The Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38—39 and the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20 however, cannot be one and the same. Not only are they clearly separated by a thousand years, but as we already highlighted, their respective attacks have drastically different results. One is utterly successful, the other is an abysmal failure. While Ezekiel is referring to the Antichrist and the events that take place just prior to the Millennium, Revelation 20:7-9 is exactly what it says it is; a very brief event that takes place at the conclusion of the Millennium, one final effort by Satan to do what he had already failed to do just before being chained and cast into the abyss for a thousand years.

Living Securely in the Land

As mentioned above, there are also some Premillennialists who argue that Ezekiel’s Gog Magog event takes place at the end of the thousand year reign. The primary argument made is that Ezekiel describes Israel living with such a sense of security that it could only refer to Israel during the millennial reign of Jesus. To support this, the following passage is cited:

In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you; a mighty army. You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. (Ezekiel 38:14-16; 39:1-3)

This perspective is, in my opinion, untenable and cannot be reconciled with the testimony of Scripture. First, let’s begin by observing that Israel is not truly secure. They are living in fact, in a false state of security. Notice that Gog plans on attacking a people who are described as “unsuspecting”:

You will say, I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. (Ezekiel 38:12, 13)

I believe the issue of Israel living “securely” is merely a perceived sense of security. Consider the fact that the Israelites are about to be invaded. So are they truly living securely or merely living with a relative sense of security? If a person is sleeping securely in their bed and seven murderous and well-armed thieves are only moments away from breaking into the house to rob and kill, can it truly be said that the unsuspecting person sleeping is secure? Or it is merely a perceived security? Such is the precisely the case with Israel in Ezekiel’s prophecy.

I would also argue that while the Israel of today fully recognizes that various threats surround them, they are not presently suspecting any massive military invasion from a foreign nation. The sense in Israel is one of relative security. It is difficult not to see Ezekiel’s description of Israel as anything other than the Israel of today:

“After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.” (Ezekiel 38:8)

The Israel that Ezekiel describes is a people who have been gathered from many nations. They resettled the land which had formerly been a continual waste. And they are living securely. Now consider the fact that the Scriptures inform us that the Antichrist will lull Israel into a false state of security through deception, specifically for the purpose of invading the land:

He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power. (Daniel 8:25)

He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue. (Daniel 11:21)

When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them and will achieve what neither his fathers nor his forefathers did. He will distribute plunder, loot and wealth among his followers. He will plot the overthrow of fortresses—but only for a time. (Daniel 11:24)

So we have seen that the method and scheme of the Antichrist is exactly that of Gog. When the people feel secure, then he will invade them. This is simply because they are simply one and the same individual.

Return of the Captives

Another critical matter is the fact that at the conclusion of Ezekiel’s prophecy concerning Gog and Magog, Israel is being portrayed as returning from the nations of their enemies as prisoners of war. After this, they all come to faith. The Lord pours His spirit on them. Is it at that time that Israel is restored. For that small number of Premillennialists who seek to move Ezekiel’s prophecy to the end of the Millennium, this creates an insurmountable problem. For if the Israelis are not delivered from out of the land of their enemies and do not come to faith until the end of the Millennium, then this would mean that after a thousand years on the earth, Jesus had accomplished essentially nothing in the way of providing security, salvation, or restoration. In such a scenario, Jesus could only be viewed as an impotent Messiah and King.

Further Arguments

Another issue is the fact that the Lord states that all of the other (preEzekielian) prophets spoke about Gog:

You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. (Ezekiel 38:17)

If all of the other prophets before Ezekiel spoke of the Gog invasion at the end of the Millennium, then where are these many references within the Scriptures? One will be very hard pressed to produce a single such reference, though it is quite easy to find many prophecies about the Antichrist among these prophets.

Conclusion

In conclusion, the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38—39 and the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20 are two different individuals and two different events, separated by a thousand years.

Thanks Joe, but those are very weak arguments.

I could take it apart piece by piece, but it's not really necessary as these statements are all that needs to be said.

Gog Magog is after the 1000 years when the walls of Israel are no more. There is a specific group of people who come against Israel:

Eze 38

Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

These people are coming with horses and swords.

Armageddon on the other hand is all the nations of the world coming against Israel and ultimately God.

Two completely different groups of people which prove without doubt that Joel Richardson is wrong.

 

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1 hour ago, The Light said:

The eighth king is the Antichrist, the King of Babylon, who has the wound of the sword and does live. I have never really studied what seal I thought he will come in. But I think I can figure that it is the 4th or 5th, most likely the 5th

So then the redeemed are taken out prior to the 4th or 5th seal then?

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6 hours ago, OldCoot said:

So then the redeemed are taken out prior to the 4th or 5th seal then?

The Church is caught up pretrib or pre 70th week. We can see them in heaven in Rev 4 and 5 before the seals are opened. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Then God turns his attention toward the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. We can prove that by the 144,000 first fruits. The first fruits guarantee a harvest and the harvest is the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. This occurs at the 6th seal. The very day Lot leaves Sodom, destruction comes.

Matt 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

Matt 24

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This is a gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. That does not include the nation of Israel as they go through the wrath of God in a place of protection, that is, the ones that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up.

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2 hours ago, The Light said:

This is a gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. That does not include the nation of Israel as they go through the wrath of God in a place of protection, that is, the ones that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up.

You delineate 12 tribes from Israel.  How does that work?   Israel is the name given Jacob, which was the father of the twelve tribes.  The woman of Revelation 12 is the twelve tribes of Israel per Genesis 37.  And the woman is preserved thru this period of calamity.  That is why I seem to be missing something.... you write that the 12 tribes are removed and Israel remains and is preserved thru the tribulation period, but Israel (Jacob) constitutes the 12 tribes.

Also, for clarity, Yeshua stated in Hosea 5 that He would not return again until both Judah and Ephraim (read: all twelve tribes - Israel - Jacob) acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him and petition for Him to restore them.   And it would be in their affliction that they would do this, quite probably an illusion to Jeremiah 30:7 which refers to Jacob which is the 12 tribes, and the period alluded to is the tribulation period we are dialoguing about.   If as you say the 12 tribes are removed before the wrath, then who is left to acknowledge the offense in their affliction and petition for Yeshua's return to restore them?  

This is why I don't follow your line of reasoning here, or maybe reading it wrong. I am old and do that sometimes :). There are indeed 12,000 of each of 12 tribes that are singled out, but they do not constitute the 12 tribes en masse. 

And when Yeshua does return, per Ezekiel 20 He will cause all the tribes of Israel (Jacob) to pass under the rod and separate out the rebellious ones.  I am convinced the parable of the maidens in Matthew 25 is an illusion to this.  if the 12 tribes were already taken out earlier, then how does that work? Were the rebellious ones also raptured out with the righteous?  Now that would be a new twist on the rapture concept.

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1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

You delineate 12 tribes from Israel.  How does that work?   Israel is the name given Jacob, which was the father of the twelve tribes.  The woman of Revelation 12 is the twelve tribes of Israel per Genesis 37.  And the woman is preserved thru this period of calamity.  That is why I seem to be missing something.... you write that the 12 tribes are removed and Israel remains and is preserved thru the tribulation period, but Israel (Jacob) constitutes the 12 tribes.

Also, for clarity, Yeshua stated in Hosea 5 that He would not return again until both Judah and Ephraim (read: all twelve tribes - Israel - Jacob) acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him and petition for Him to restore them.   And it would be in their affliction that they would do this, quite probably an illusion to Jeremiah 30:7 which refers to Jacob which is the 12 tribes, and the period alluded to is the tribulation period we are dialoguing about.   If as you say the 12 tribes are removed before the wrath, then who is left to acknowledge the offense in their affliction and petition for Yeshua's return to restore them?  

This is why I don't follow your line of reasoning here, or maybe reading it wrong. I am old and do that sometimes :). There are indeed 12,000 of each of 12 tribes that are singled out, but they do not constitute the 12 tribes en masse. 

And when Yeshua does return, per Ezekiel 20 He will cause all the tribes of Israel (Jacob) to pass under the rod and separate out the rebellious ones.  I am convinced the parable of the maidens in Matthew 25 is an illusion to this.  if the 12 tribes were already taken out earlier, then how does that work? Were the rebellious ones also raptured out with the righteous?  Now that would be a new twist on the rapture concept.

I think you are following what I am saying. And yes, I do separate the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth from those that are in the physical nation of Israel. I do this because that is what the scripture says happens.

Most people that believe in the pretrib rapture find it necessary for the verses in Matt 24 to be the second coming of Christ when He sets up His kingdom on earth. That's clearly not the case. It is the gathering by the angels from heaven and earth. It will be time for the marriage supper.

If God says that there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes, that means that there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes. The 144,000 will be witnessing to the 12 tribes that are around the world. They will look up and when their redemption draws nigh as they will know that the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

If you look at the feasts of Israel you will find that they tell you what will happen.

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Yeah, the feasts are great! As is the fascinating ways the Torah shows the Messiah.   One I am in awe of is how Tabernacles and the corresponding Beit Hashoevah ceremony ties John 7-8 and Jeremiah 17:13-14.  One of those little nuggets the HS gave us.

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On 6/14/2019 at 1:22 PM, Revelation Man said:

Hello brother, just a few questions/points to ponder. Where is Israel's immediate neighbors at in this Gog & Magog war ? Here is how they are listed.

Ezekiel 38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: 4.......... 5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: 6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

So Russia is joined by Iran, Turkey, by much of North Africa {seeing as Put was actually not only Libya but Tunisia and parts of Algeria}. None of Israel's immediate neighbors is mentioned, not even Egypt. Not one nation mentioned has a border with Israel, so there must be another war {Psalm 83 War} that comes before this War of Gog and Magog. Israel must defeat them first, after they no doubt attack Israel, but they are no doubt put in their place.

1.) The war of Israeli Extermination {Psalm 83} 

Psalm 83:3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. 4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

The Nations mentioned add up to these, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Gaza. The second part of the chapter is a Prayer for victory, we are not told specifically who wins the war. But other scriptures tells us who wins.

Zechariah 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

This is why Israel can live without WALLS brother in these End Times, she defeats all of her surrounding neighbors, who no doubt try to annihilate Israel, but it backfires on them. The rest of the Muslim nations get angry and start bellyaching to Russia who then comes after them, along with Turkey, much of North Africa and Iran. God defeats them. So I don't think the Gog Magog War of Ezekiel is the same as the one in Revelation which comes after Jesus' 1000 year reign, nor is it the Armageddon War. I think this sets up the Anti-Christ to move in and make his peace, Israel are said to BURN WEAPONS for 7 Years after this Gog & Magog War....Here is where we have to think....If Jesus is in control He just cleans all the world up via the power of his Spoken Word. If it was not at least 3.5 years before the 70th Week Tribulation then the last 3.5 years of burning their weapons would be under the Ari-Christ, and I don't think that would work out in reality, he wouldn't allow them to do anything. 

Its convoluted no doubt, but there are enough MARKERS that we can get a general idea of what is and what is not possible. One thing we know, God is going to defeat the Wicked. Amen. 

I don't see why the 7 years of burning weapons couldn't happen during the first seven years of the millennium. There are many other things that happen during the millennium. Look at this passage from Isaiah:

And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war. – Isaiah 2:4

Is this not AFTER Jesus returns to rule?.....In the millennium?

If all things are provided supernaturally by Jesus in such a way that even fuel is not needed, then why then will there be need for plowing and pruning? Will Jesus not also “provide for everyone’s needs” by magically plowing the earth and pruning trees? In the same way that Ezekiel portrays weapons of warfare being converted into fuel for domestic and agricultural purposes, so also do Isaiah and Micah speak of converting weapons (swords and spears) into plowshares and pruning hooks for agricultural purposes. The prophetic/poetic portrayals of burning weapons for fuel in Ezekiel and the hammering of weapons into plowshares in Isaiah for agriculture are essentially identical.

 

According to Isaiah, after Jesus returns, the nations which formerly persecuted and hated Israel will participate in the rebuilding of the city of Jerusalem and the nation of Israel:

[T]he LORD will arise over you, and His glory will be seen upon you. The Gentiles shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. Lift up your eyes all around, and see: they all gather together, they come to you. … Foreigners will rebuild your walls, and their kings will serve you … and they shall call you The City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel. – Isaiah 60:2-4,14

 

During Jesus’ very real earthly kingdom reign, not only will foreigners work to rebuild Jerusalem, but also the Israelis themselves:

Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, they will raise up the former devastations; and they will repair the ruined cities, the desolations of many generations. Strangers will stand and pasture your flocks, and foreigners will be your farmers and your vinedressers. But you will be called the priests of the LORD; you will be spoken of as ministers of our God. You will eat the wealth of nations, and in their riches you will boast. – Isaiah 61:4

The prophet Amos also spoke of the millennial age in very similar ways:

In that day … I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, and they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; they will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, and make gardens and eat their fruit. “I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them,” Says the LORD your God. – Amos 9:11,14-15

 

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