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Mid Trib rapture anyone?


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This might be long, but I hope it is interesting enough to not abandon.I want to go on record and say I am not advocating a mid Trib rapture.....but rather am just asking questions to see the pros and cons for such doctrine. Here is what I’m thinking:

1. I don’t really know if the four horsemen have ridden or not, and I really don’t know if the AC is the rider on the white horse and begins the releasing of the seals. In addition,  I don’t really know if the seals begin right when Daniels 70th week begins. I see support for both positions (already ridden or future).

2. I feel much stronger in my belief that the rapture occurs around the 6th seal and this rapture is represented in the Bible in Rev 7:9-17.  But I still am foggy as to WHEN the 6th seal occurs in relation to Daniels 70th week.

3. I have held the belief that the rapture occurrs at the 6th seal and for a long time “assumed” this was released BEFORE the 70th week commences, which means before the covenant being confirmed.  HOWEVER, due to my latest learning, I now believe that maybe the rapture is close to the midpoint of the week (3.5 years) solely based on my exegesis and interpretation  of Revelation 12:5.  I now see the man-child as having a duo meaning- Christ and the Church!  Therefore, I am very open to hearing what you think about a possible MID TRIB RAPTURE. 

4. I’m not interested in reading about the POST TRIB RAPTURE because I’ve read enough and find it wanting, and don’t even want to discuss this, so please no post Trib talk on this thread. I’ve studied the PRE WRATH position and agree the rapture occurs around the 6th seal but do not agree in the timing Rosenthal and Van Kampen put forth...around two years after the abomination of desolation. Im okay with pre weathers coming on this thread to share their thoughts and show me why the 6th seal cannot be released at the mid point. 

5. So, here is what I’m interested  in reading your feedback with Bible support of course: can the rapture occur either shortly before or shortly after the abomination of desolation?  Jesus did say, “when you see the abomination of desolation, run....”. I’m not 100% sure he is only talking to Jews because he believes the Christians will be gone by this time. So I’m open to discuss this...is it possible the rapture could occur immediately after this event?  Or is it possible it could occur immediately before this event.  Because I do believe the raptured and resurrected Saints are shown in Rev 7:9-17, when John says to the angel, who are these people, the reply is, “they came out of the great tribulation.”  This to me can mean one of two things....came out so as not to experience at all, or came out while in it. If we are in it, I feel confident it is before the trumpet and bowl judgments because the 7th seal follows the 6th seal and there is a time of silence followed by the 7 trumpet judgments. 

6. I believe The Day of the Lord (DOTL) is God’s wrath=trumpets and bowls, and  would then begin immediately after the rapture. When Rev 6:17 says “for the great day of their wrath has come” I believe this is when the day of the lord begins...at the 7th seal. 

7. I’m not sold on the belief that the 70th week is only a time of Jacobs trouble and thus EXCLUSIVELY for Jews. I don’t see why the Church can’t be here as well for a while and there is a partial overlap. There always has been an overlap, right?  So this argument to support a pre Trib rapture doesn’t hold a lot of weight for me. It holds a little, but not a lot. 

8. I believe all the precursors for the DOTL to commence are all met as well with a Mid Trib position: 

a. Elijah comes first- if Elijah was John the Baptizer during Jesus’day, I guess he did come before DOTL. (Malachi 4)

b. The AC is revealed first (revealing could either be when the covenant is  confirmed or at the AOD, either way, that precedes the DOTL); 2 Thess 2

c. The apostasy comes first (falling away of the Church precedes DOTL during the first half of the week); 2 Thess 2

d. Heavenly wonders, blood red moon, etc precede DOTL (6th seal precedes DOTL); Joel 2

in addition, pursuant to 1 Thess 5 the DOTL “will come like a thief in the night while the people are saying “peace and safety”” so I’m assuming after the covenant is confirmed, there will be some kind of peace treaty that allows for Jews to rebuild their temple. There should be peace in the Middle East for some 3 years following this treaty....then BOOM! 

Conclusion: So, unless you think this line of thinking has merit, please tell me why the 6th seal can’t be released at the mid point of the week, shortly before or after? I’m all ears and will respect your input. Again, my purpose is not to win people to my way of thinking, but rather to help me think out other perspectives that I am now considering to see if my present belief (pre Trib) is still the best theory out there. Thank you my brothers and sisters in Christ.  Spock 

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 I have been over this many times, and NO ONE has been able to prove a 7 year tribulation. The idea stems from a false interpretation of the 70th week of Daniel. Small details will trip up anyone trying to make sense of Revelation in the context of a 7 year tribulation. When you understand that there are ONLY 3.5 years left of the 70th week, then Revelation (and ALL other prophecy books in the Bible) will finally make sense. The so-called mid-trib is actually pre-trib and pre-wrath then becomes mid-trib and post-trib is well they may as well be Amillennialists.

 First, you already know that Jewish literature doesn't always flow chronologically. They will often state the general first, and then go into the specifics afterward.
A case in point is...
Genesis 1:1-13 (KJV)
 
The first verse is merely a synopsis of what is to follow, and verses 6-8 and verses 9-10 go into the details of how this was accomplished.
 
This also happens in Matt. 24 (prophecy revealed by Jesus) - He outlines out to the end first, then goes back and inserts details about the AoD and start of the Church Age before reaching the rapture, tribulation and 2nd coming.
 
The same thing happens in...
Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it DESOLATE, even until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 
 All those "ands" connect everything associated with the 70th week which begins in verse 26 (AFTER the 69th week ends). Verse 27 is NOT a separate sentence, but rather a continuation of verse 26.
Gabriel first stated the synopsis for the whole passage in verse 24; then, he went into more detail in verses 25-27. However, it happened again in 25-27: First, he stated the synopsis in verses 25-26 (which are the details for verse 24), and then, he went into more detail in 27. He made the statement, "after 62 Sevens shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself," and then showed how that would happen in verse 27.
IF the final Seven begins immediately after the end point of the 62 Sevens, as we assume the 62 Sevens did right after the first 7 Sevens, then the Messiah's death would be WITHIN the final Seven. Removing the cross to a point OUTSIDE of the "determined" 70 weeks would mean the cross cannot be used as part of its fulfillment. This is the one point everyone just seems to think is totally irrelevant. How can the 6 purposes for the 70 weeks be fulfilled without the cross?
 
Now, the "prince that shall come" CANNOT be the "antichrist." Here's why:
In English, we know that the object of the preposition cannot participate in the sentence as a subject or an object in the main thought of the sentence. Since it is not the subject of the sentence, then it cannot be the antecedent of the word "he." Now, if the "he" was part of the prepositional phrase in which the object of the preposition resides, THEN it could be its antecedent.
The same thing is basically true in Hebrew: In Hebrew, there is a construct called a "noun construct state" in which two nouns sitting back to back affect one another. The second noun modifies the first noun, but the first noun can be the subject or object in the sentence. The second noun cannot participate in the sentence's main structure.
The Hebrew of verses 26 and 27 (transliterated) is this:
Dani'el 9:26-27 Masoretic Text as found in PC Study Bible
26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt:
27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt
zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem:
The "`am naagiyd" are the two nouns back to back, and they translate to "[the] people of [the] prince." The first word "`am" ("people") can be a subject or an object in the sentence, but NOT "naagiyd!"
The sentence technically doesn't end in verse 26 but continues through verse 27. There are no nouns attached to the verbs in verse 27; therefore, the word "he" is supplied THREE TIMES in verse 27. To find the subject for the verbs, which would technically be the "antecedent" for the pronoun "he" in verse 27, one must go back to verse 26 to the word "Maashiyach."
Thus, it is the "Maashiyach" or "Messiah" who performs the verbs in verse 27:
27 And the Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week the sacrifice and the oblation are given cause to cease, but for the continued abominations it shall become DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
It's not the "anti-messiah"; it's the Messiah HIMSELF who confirms the (Davidic) covenant; it's the Messiah HIMSELF who "causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" (see Hebrews 10), and it's the Messiah HIMSELF who makes the city (and Daniel's people) desolate!
 
Now are ready to go into the calculations for the end of the 69th week/ start of the 70th week? Hint: it occurs at the baptism NOT the cross. 
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54 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I disagree.   When Daniel speaks of being "cut off", it is the word kawrath and used extensively for when a covenant is "made ".  The idea conveys cutting off of the past by cutting a sacrifice,  initiating a new future in the form of a covenant.  E.g,

Verse list:    
Dan 9:26 KJV    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be "cut off", but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Gen 15:18 KJV    In the same day the LORD "made" a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 21:27 KJV    And Abraham took sheep and oxen, and gave them unto Abimelech; and both of them "made" a covenant.
Gen 21:32 KJV    Thus they "made" a covenant at Beersheba: then Abimelech rose up, and Phichol the chief captain of his host, and they returned into the land of the Philistines.
Gen 26:28 KJV    And they said, We saw certainly that the LORD was with thee: and we said, Let there be now an oath betwixt us, even betwixt us and thee, and let us "make" a covenant with thee;
Gen 31:44 KJV    Now therefore come thou, let us "make" a covenant, I and thou; and let it be for a witness between me and thee.
Exo 23:32 KJV    Thou shalt "make" no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
Exo 24:8 KJV    And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath "made" with you concerning all these words.
Exo 34:10 KJV    And he said, Behold, I "make" a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
Exo 34:12 KJV    Take heed to thyself, lest thou "make" a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
Exo 34:15 KJV    Lest thou "make" a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
Deu 4:23 KJV    Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he "made" with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
Deu 5:2 KJV    The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 9:9 KJV    When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD "made" with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

Granted it is also translated as "cut off" as in Daniel 9:26, but we see a continuation of thought when the covenant is confirmed for one week.   What covenant is that? I would contend that it is the one that was cut at the end of the 69th week. 

Blessings

The PuP 

Thanks, I'll look into that. But, even if they are the same word, wouldn't that just give further evidence to what I am suggesting? The 70th week begins at the baptism which is the confirmation of the covenant with the Jews. Now, we get into something else when we think of the New Covenant to the entire world. Does it begin with the cross which occurs at the midway point of the 70th week (the Old Covenant being interrupted) or also at the baptism? Interesting

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The wise virgins shall be taken alive to the Feast of the Lamb so the martyrs of the 5th seal opening cannot be the wise virgins.

We are going nowhere if we are left by the Bridegroom, we can only deny Lord Jesus to save our head or be faithful to face death sentence by the antichrist.

Isnt that clear enough what Jesus has told us about the parable of 10 virgins ? Foolish virgins left shall be martyed if they repent and dare.

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16 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Welcome back (Kotter, lol, ) Spock!  Though I hold to a rapture timing very similar to the prewrath position,  I would prefer the label as mid-wrath.  Not,  just to be different,  but because I believe the great tribulation has its (future) origins in God's wrath upon Israel, namely Jerusalem,  that escalates to a cup of trembling for the whole world,  Zech 12-14.

Many pre-wrath people stop just short of saying that the rapture happens AT the 6th seal,  which explains my similarity in views.  But I would like to point out something about the great multitude of Rev 7.  The mistake that many make is to assume that white robes equate to having received immortal,  eternal bodies.   But that is not true.  One only has to look at the 5th seal to see otherwise: 

Verse list:    
Rev 6:9-11 KJV    And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I think there is little doubt that these are Christian... slain for their testimony.   But their petition for revenge is put on hold,  and wait for their brethren.   We,  as Christian individuals,  are probably guilty of wronging a fellow brother, but we are still brothers in Christ.  God is not going to avenge brotherly faults,  while brother dwells among brother,  namely because of so many offences.   But our revenge will come only after the rapture; 

*[[2Th 1:6]] KJV* Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

*[[2Th 1:7]] KJV* And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Their revenge is postponed because their brethren were still dwelling on earth.   And yet they were wearing white robes.   And so are the great multitude found in Rev 7.  White robes are indicative of righteousness... imputed righteousness for those deemed faithful to Christ.   These 5th seal martyrs are seen beneath the throne of God,  where lies the sea of glass.   The overcomers of the beast (Rev 15:2) are also seen standing on this sea of glass,  in expectation of receiving a reward (having harps).  The multitude of Rev 7 are seen "before the throne" just as those in Rev 15:2.  The ones of the 5th seal are seen "under the altar".  The sea of glass (Rev 4) is seen as being "before the throne".  My point being,  that the abode of the righteous prior to receiving their eternal reward, is the sea of glass.  

As I have already alluded to,  the vengeance of the righteous will not begin until the righteous are removed via the rapture.   The days of vengeance will come when you find Jerusalem surrounded: 

Verse list:    
Luk 21:21-22 KJV    Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

So what do we find in Rev 8:1-6?  Pouring out/ answering the prayers of the saints.   And the sounding of the first trumpet! 

Blessings

The PuP 

 

Greetings Pup,

if you don’t mind, could you give me a point by point analysis of the points I’m making to support this theory.  I would like to know where you think it is faulty and thus not thenwill of God. Thanks.

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15 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

 I have been over this many times, and NO ONE has been able to prove a 7 year tribulation. The idea stems from a false interpretation of the 70th week of Daniel. Small details will trip up anyone trying to make sense of Revelation in the context of a 7 year tribulation. When you understand that there are ONLY 3.5 years left of the 70th week, then Revelation (and ALL other prophecy books in the Bible) will finally make sense. The so-called mid-trib is actually pre-trib and pre-wrath then becomes mid-trib and post-trib is well they may as well be Amillennialists.

 First, you already know that Jewish literature doesn't always flow chronologically. They will often state the general first, and then go into the specifics afterward.
A case in point is...
Genesis 1:1-13 (KJV)
 
The first verse is merely a synopsis of what is to follow, and verses 6-8 and verses 9-10 go into the details of how this was accomplished.
 
This also happens in Matt. 24 (prophecy revealed by Jesus) - He outlines out to the end first, then goes back and inserts details about the AoD and start of the Church Age before reaching the rapture, tribulation and 2nd coming.
 
The same thing happens in...
Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it DESOLATE, even until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 
 All those "ands" connect everything associated with the 70th week which begins in verse 26 (AFTER the 69th week ends). Verse 27 is NOT a separate sentence, but rather a continuation of verse 26.
Gabriel first stated the synopsis for the whole passage in verse 24; then, he went into more detail in verses 25-27. However, it happened again in 25-27: First, he stated the synopsis in verses 25-26 (which are the details for verse 24), and then, he went into more detail in 27. He made the statement, "after 62 Sevens shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself," and then showed how that would happen in verse 27.
IF the final Seven begins immediately after the end point of the 62 Sevens, as we assume the 62 Sevens did right after the first 7 Sevens, then the Messiah's death would be WITHIN the final Seven. Removing the cross to a point OUTSIDE of the "determined" 70 weeks would mean the cross cannot be used as part of its fulfillment. This is the one point everyone just seems to think is totally irrelevant. How can the 6 purposes for the 70 weeks be fulfilled without the cross?
 
Now, the "prince that shall come" CANNOT be the "antichrist." Here's why:
In English, we know that the object of the preposition cannot participate in the sentence as a subject or an object in the main thought of the sentence. Since it is not the subject of the sentence, then it cannot be the antecedent of the word "he." Now, if the "he" was part of the prepositional phrase in which the object of the preposition resides, THEN it could be its antecedent.
The same thing is basically true in Hebrew: In Hebrew, there is a construct called a "noun construct state" in which two nouns sitting back to back affect one another. The second noun modifies the first noun, but the first noun can be the subject or object in the sentence. The second noun cannot participate in the sentence's main structure.
The Hebrew of verses 26 and 27 (transliterated) is this:
Dani'el 9:26-27 Masoretic Text as found in PC Study Bible
26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt:
27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt
zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem:
The "`am naagiyd" are the two nouns back to back, and they translate to "[the] people of [the] prince." The first word "`am" ("people") can be a subject or an object in the sentence, but NOT "naagiyd!"
The sentence technically doesn't end in verse 26 but continues through verse 27. There are no nouns attached to the verbs in verse 27; therefore, the word "he" is supplied THREE TIMES in verse 27. To find the subject for the verbs, which would technically be the "antecedent" for the pronoun "he" in verse 27, one must go back to verse 26 to the word "Maashiyach."
Thus, it is the "Maashiyach" or "Messiah" who performs the verbs in verse 27:
27 And the Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week the sacrifice and the oblation are given cause to cease, but for the continued abominations it shall become DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
It's not the "anti-messiah"; it's the Messiah HIMSELF who confirms the (Davidic) covenant; it's the Messiah HIMSELF who "causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" (see Hebrews 10), and it's the Messiah HIMSELF who makes the city (and Daniel's people) desolate!
 
Now are ready to go into the calculations for the end of the 69th week/ start of the 70th week? Hint: it occurs at the baptism NOT the cross. 

Donkey,

thanks for responding, but would you mind critiquing my theory even assuming what you said....there is only 3.5 years left in prophecy....the great tribulation where the antichrist  has 42 months of power given to him. I assume you believe the two witnesses present for those same 42 months. 

Anyhow, let me know what you think of a rapture either immediately before the 3.5 commences or immediately after it commences.  

Let me know if you agree the trumpets and bowls are God’s wrath and thus the church will be gone before such occurs. Please read my original post and give me specific feedback on those points. 

I will be glad to discuss your 3.5 week remain8ng on the thread you started discussing that line of thinking. In fact, I think I already have added a thought or two, but will address it mor later. 

Thanks

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4 hours ago, Spock said:

Donkey,

thanks for responding, but would you mind critiquing my theory even assuming what you said....there is only 3.5 years left in prophecy....the great tribulation where the antichrist  has 42 months of power given to him. I assume you believe the two witnesses present for those same 42 months. 

Anyhow, let me know what you think of a rapture either immediately before the 3.5 commences or immediately after it commences.  

Let me know if you agree the trumpets and bowls are God’s wrath and thus the church will be gone before such occurs. Please read my original post and give me specific feedback on those points. 

I will be glad to discuss your 3.5 week remain8ng on the thread you started discussing that line of thinking. In fact, I think I already have added a thought or two, but will address it mor later. 

Thanks

Mr. Spock, (that sounds really strange - but cool)

I appreciate your open mind to this subject, it is actually very rare on sites like this.

Yes, all the events in Revelation are only given 3.5 years, so they all occur with in the same time frame.

The rapture on my outline occurs BEFORE the 3.5 years. It is tied to the 6th seal, the FIRST 2 trumpets, Rev. 12, Dan 12:1, Isa. 57:1, 1 Thess. 4:17, Matt 24:38 (parables thru -25:30), The church of Phil., Rev 7 (great multitude), Rev. 11 ("worthy" believers measured and accepted while the unworthy are left behind to trample the outer courts), & Rev 14:16.

 

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3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 

Let me give you a brief synopsis of things.   All of the answers are found in the bible.   God has "organized" it for the purpose of manifesting our faith in him and his word.   Our faith comes from believing what is written therein is true rather than what we believe it says is true.  It may seem like i said the same thing but I didn't.   Faith is believing God's word is true EVEN when we don't understand it.   The problem is when we think that our opinions are correct.  Another stumbling block that impedes our understanding is (somewhat) faulty definitions that are based on an incomplete understanding of things.   We try to fit things according to our current understanding of things rather than vice versa.  My understanding is built on thousands of scriptures.   One of the most important factors in our understanding is connecting the O.T. with the NEW. 

One of the building blocks to understanding bible prophecy is found in the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9.  Some choose to ignore it, and many base concrete foundations on a historical timeline of events that are virtually unverifiable.  The destruction of the temple and the crucifixion of Christ are in themselves well documented events of history.   But in between those 2 events we have very little to accurately assess the timeline of events.  A simple look at a Jewish "biblical" chronology, upon which today's current year of 5779 is based, deviates considerably from Christian apologetics of 6000+years [2019 AD + 4004 BC].  Enough said about prophetic problems.   Let me begin by a synoptic assessment of the book of revelation.   If you have taken the time to read some of my recent posts,  many details are found there.

Paul's understanding of things, both doctrinal and prophetically,  are far greater than he is given credit for, even though everything that he wrote was written before John penned the Revelation.   The one thing that is most misunderstood is roles of Jews AND Gentiles in endtime events.   Paul, as a Jew, got his understanding from what we would label as old testament literature.  This probably included some writings that became corrupted or lost,  and are no longer used.   One of those things that Paul understood, with all relativity, is that judgment,  in the form of God's wrath,  would begin with the Jewish nation and people.   [See Romans 1 & 2 for his exposition on the wrath of God,  to the Jew FIRST,  and to the Greek/ Gentile. ]

The seals and trumpets [Rev 6 thru 11] are the judgments upon Jerusalem and Israel,  the people and the land.   Whereas,  Rev 12 begins the "day of revelation and wrath of God(Romans 2:6-10)" upon the rest of the world.   The seals can be traced directly back to Eze 5,9 & 14, et al.  The 7 spirits (to the 7 churches) and the trumpets and the 2 witnesses and the 2/3 that perish can be traced back to Zechariah (&Ezekiel).

Even though there is a final 7 years to the endtimes,  the book of revelation (chapter 6 thru 19) only covers the events starting with the GT that begins in the middle of the week,  covering only the last 3.5 years.   When (and I am sure that you don't,  yet) you understand that statement,  you can understand why the AoD is not mentioned there.   A primary simple statement of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse is the AoD is seen BEFORE the GT begins.   It is totally irrelevant and invalid to the events that follow.   Daniel 12 is almost universally misunderstood and misapplied to the book of revelation.   Probably the greatest key to correctly understanding events [mine actually had its origins in Daniel 12] for those of today should probably begin in Daniel 7 and the 4th beast from the earth.   But it is of foremost importance to recognize the priority of events begins with judgment upon Jerusalem and the 7 seals.   The timing of the rapture will find its proper place,  ONLY AFTER these other events are understood.   It is given an inordinate (incorrect) priority in the understanding of the workings and  plans of God.   Human nature,  the fear of God,  necessitates building theological understanding AROUND the timing of the rapture,  rather than letting theological understanding establish its timing.   Pre-trib theology cultivates a mindset of serving God out of fear,  rather than out of love.   Live right or you might get left behind.   Sad to say it,  but that is Satan's basis for a works oriented salvation.   We should serve God because we know that he loved us first and we now love him for that immeasurable grace,  rather than in hope of being saved.   In simpler terms,  I serve him because I know that I am saved,  and not in the hope of being saved.  From this discussion,  what specific point do you want me to elaborate on,  with scriptures? 

Blessings

The PuP 

Wow......that was different!  

Thanks for responding. I will read you other thread to get a fuller understanding of what you just said here, but know this, your message is pretty clear enough, even though you didn’t mention anything about the timing of the rapture except that we shouldn’t be concerned with it. 

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On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 2:26 AM, Spock said:

 

Conclusion: So, unless you think this line of thinking has merit, please tell me why the 6th seal can’t be released at the mid point of the week, shortly before or after? I’m all ears and will respect your input. Again, my purpose is not to win people to my way of thinking, but rather to help me think out other perspectives that I am now considering to see if my present belief (pre Trib) is still the best theory out there. Thank you my brothers and sisters in Christ.  Spock 

Hi Spock,

Great to discuss with you again. Now when I flew small planes I was taught the 1 in 60 rule. If you are off course 1degree then in 60 miles you will be off course 60 miles. And that is a long, long way off. So it is important to find that spot in our thinking that has led us off. Thus I will address the `Day of the Lord,` for this is what I see has led you into some confusion.

 

Day - Gk. `hemera,` time, a day, (24 hours) & a period of time.

 

The Apostle Peter gives the extent of the time period.

 

`But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.` (2 Peter 3: 10)

 

Thus we see the beginning of the Day of the Lord time period is when it comes as a thief, and the end will be when everything is dissolved. (at the end of the millennium)

 

`For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night, for when they say, “Peace and Safety!” then suddenly destruction comes upon them, as labour pains upon a pregnant woman.` (1 Thess. 4: 2 & 3)

 

The Apostle Paul tells us that the Day of the Lord, like a thief, comes upon the unsuspecting world, while they are saying, “Peace and Safety!” Then Paul gives more detail in his next letter, (2 Thess. 2) - the A/C revealed, the falling away, the abomination etc. Quite a few events in the Day of the Lord time period, during the trib. part.

 

The Apostle John gives the time of the specific Day of the Lord.

 

`I looked when he opened the sixth seal, there was a great earth quake and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the moon became like blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

 

 And kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great Day of His wrath has come and who is able to stand?”` (Rev 6: 12 - 17)

 

Such cataclysmic events, before the Lord bursts out in power and great glory to deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon the rebellious nations.

 

Thus we can see that there is a specific Day of the Lord, as well as a time period called the Day of the Lord in which many events have to occur.

 

Day of the Lord time period starts when people are saying “Peace and Safety!” And then many events follow.

Day of the Lord, specific Day, is when the Lord comes in power and great glory.

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

 

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On 2/17/2019 at 9:56 AM, Spock said:

This might be long, but I hope it is interesting enough to not abandon.I want to go on record and say I am not advocating a mid Trib rapture.....but rather am just asking questions to see the pros and cons for such doctrine. Here is what I’m thinking:

1. I don’t really know if the four horsemen have ridden or not, and I really don’t know if the AC is the rider on the white horse and begins the releasing of the seals. In addition,  I don’t really know if the seals begin right when Daniels 70th week begins. I see support for both positions (already ridden or future).

1.) They have not ridden but that's not really your main emphasis here it seems, you don't seem to understand when the Seals are opened in relation to the 70th week, and without knowing that you really can't understand what the Seals represent. The 70th week starts, but the rapture in my opinion starts before the 70th week, the Church Age was inserted, the 70th week judgment was put off, God forsook Israel and gave the mantle of taking His Gospel unto the world unto the Gentiles, Romans chapter 11 says the Jews are blinded until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled. So it all jibes with the Church being taken to Heaven, she after all is the Bride of Christ and the Jewish Marriage Custom is to build a room for the bride in the fathers {Fathers} house. They abide in the wedding chambers for 7 days {7 years}. 

The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36).

So the 70th week starts and as Daniel 9:27 shows us, there is a 7 year Covenant or Agreement made"Peace Agreement" {Covenant means Agreement} between the Anti-Christ, Israel and MANY [Nations] in the Region. Then in the Middle of the Week {3.5 years} he reneges on the Agreements. He has to become a Beast over the whole Mediterranean Sea Region like all the other Beasts. There are 7 year Agreements in place between the E.U. and Israel and THE MANY as we speak, it's called the European Neighborhood Policy.

The European Neighborhood Policy governs the EU's relations with 16 of the its closest Eastern and Southern Neighbors. To the South: Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Palestine*, Syria** and Tunisia, and to the east......................

The European Neighbourhood Instrument

From the ENPI to the ENI

Starting from 2014, the European Neighborhood Instrument (ENI) has replaced the European Neighborhood Partnership Instrument (ENPI 2006-2013). The ENI will run until 2020 providing the framework and bulk of funding for the relations between the European Union (EU) and Partner Countries under the renewed European Neighborhood Policy (ENP).  {Notice the 7 year cycles}

So the MANY in Dan. 8:25 that are destroyed BY PEACE, and the MANY that this Anti-Christ makes an Agreement with in Dan. 9:27, are THE MANY Nations he conquers in Dan. 11:40-43. This includes Israel, but he's not able to Conquer what is now Jordan, that is where Israel will Flee for 1260 days.

Dan. 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north {Anti-Christ} shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.{Jordan} 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

So who are THE MANY that the Anti-Christ reneges on his Peace Agreement with ? Well it is Israel, all of North Africa, and the Nations around the Mediterranean Sea Region, which is why he is a Beast that comes out of the Mediterranean Sea, which means the Little Horn/Anti-Christ's FOOTPRINT will look exactly like the Old Roman Empire. It will be the E.U. and THE MANY that he Conquers, all of North Africa, Israel, Lebanon, Syria etc. 

So in th Middle of the week, the 70th week, the Seals are opened by Jesus, the Wrath of God is allowed to go forth on Mankind. So the Seals begin, of course, in the Middle of the week. Thus there is 3.5 years of God's Wrath to come, the Seals, Trumpets and Vials. 

This portion needed to be very detailed, thus longer. I will answer the rest in another post. 

 

 

 

Edited by Revelation Man
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