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Mid Trib rapture anyone?

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11 hours ago, The Light said:

God states that he will rain hail, fire, and brimstone on the forces of Gog. (Ezek. 38:22) This only occurs during the First Trumpet judgment. This time stamps that event as occurring at the beginning of the Seventh Year of the 70th Week of Daniel.

 

Matt 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

If you are looking for the correct time stamp, you will see that the Tribulation, the 70th week of Daniel, is over before the wrath of God begins, which means that it is over before the 1st trumpet judgement.

Hi Light, 

Yes, the tribulation for the Church, the saints, will be over before the Wrath of God begins. But, the 70th week of Daniel is not over.

The Wrath of God....ie, the seven trumpets and the seven vials or bowls occurs in the last year, the 7th year. The church is raptured at the end of the 6th year. That is Math 24: 29-30.....and Rev 6:12-13

"As it was in the days of Noah"...Math 24:37........Noah and his family were in the Ark for 1 year and 10 days. The trumpet judgments will last for 1 year.....then the bowls will be poured out during  the "10 days of AWE".............these are the Wrath of God.

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11 hours ago, The Light said:

After God defeats Gog and his army, God feeds them to the birds of the air (Ezek. 39: 17-20). This is an exact match with Rev. 19: 17 -18 where God calls the birds to gather to feast on the bodies of the Antichrist forces after the Battle of Armageddon.

Could be a match if you only had this piece of information. But we have other information that says this occurs after the 1000 years.

Hi Light,

I don't see this, "the birds feasting on the bodies of Antichrist forces" as happening at the end of the millennium.

If you can show differently, then please do.

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11 hours ago, The Light said:

God calls Gog’s forces a cloud that covers the land which is a match with God’s description of them in Joel 2:2.

No, Joel 2 is talking about a day of clouds and darkness. Not a match whatsoever.

Joel 2

A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Hi Light,

 Joel is describing "A great people and a strong (people)"....like "darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness".

a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."...... surely, this is talking about the armies. 

Do you not see that "darkness, gloominess, clouds" is just a metaphor to describe the HORDES of the Antichrist's armies?

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2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Light,

It will only be a real security when Antichrist fools Israel into accepting a false "peace". Then they will again have their temple and resume their sacrifices. Only then will Israel feel secure.

Eze 38

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Those walls will be up until AFTER Christ returns with the armies of heaven.

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2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Light, 

Yes, the tribulation for the Church, the saints, will be over before the Wrath of God begins. But, the 70th week of Daniel is not over.

The Wrath of God....ie, the seven trumpets and the seven vials or bowls occurs in the last year, the 7th year. The church is raptured at the end of the 6th year. That is Math 24: 29-30.....and Rev 6:12-13

"As it was in the days of Noah"...Math 24:37........Noah and his family were in the Ark for 1 year and 10 days. The trumpet judgments will last for 1 year.....then the bowls will be poured out during  the "10 days of AWE".............these are the Wrath of God.

Really like your thoughts here Joe, though I don't agree. I see the Church in heaven in Rev 5 before  the 70th week begins.

Rev 5

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The 70th week if for thy people, the twelve tribes.

Dan 9

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

"as it was in the days of Noah" 

Matt 24

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

  Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood. As the Church will be in heaven during the 70th week.

Matt 24

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

It is not the church raptured from the earth in Matt 24, It is the 12 tribes of Israel. The angels will gather the church from heaven and the twelve tribes from the earth. None of Gods elect will go through the wrath of God. The nation of Israel will go through the wrath of God in a place of protection as the Church and the 12 tribes are at the marriage supper.

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1 hour ago, The Light said:

Really like your thoughts here Joe, though I don't agree. I see the Church in heaven in Rev 5 before  the 70th week begins.

Rev 5

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The 70th week if for thy people, the twelve tribes.

Dan 9

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

"as it was in the days of Noah" 

Matt 24

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

  Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood. As the Church will be in heaven during the 70th week.

Matt 24

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

It is not the church raptured from the earth in Matt 24, It is the 12 tribes of Israel. The angels will gather the church from heaven and the twelve tribes from the earth. None of Gods elect will go through the wrath of God. The nation of Israel will go through the wrath of God in a place of protection as the Church and the 12 tribes are at the marriage supper.

Hi Light,

" Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood. As the Church will be in heaven during the 70th week."

This has been brought up a number of times.

A very careful reading of Gen 7:11-17 says different. 

Yes, chapter 7 verse 1 does tells us that God told Noah and his household was to enter the Ark.....BUT, read on.....

Verse 6 ....."Now  Noah was 600 years old when the flood of water came upon the earth.

Verse 7......"THEN, Noah and his sons and his wife and  and his sons' wives with him ENTERED the ark because of the water  of the flood.

Verse 13......"On the very same day that Noah (and company) entered the ark (then it describes the animals thru to verse 16)

Verse 16....."Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him, and the Lord closed it behind him"

Verse 17....THEN the flood came upon the earth...."

So, God told Noah in verse 1 of chapter 7 to enter the Ark, " You are to take with you of every clean animal by sevens......

This was no small task. The Ark was enormous. It would have taken more than just ONE DAY to load it up. "After 7 more days, I will send rain....". Right here it tells us how long it took Noah to load the Ark.

Now,  read verses 6 to 17.  It makes perfect sense. Verse 13, 16 and 17 tells us all we need to know.

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On 6/13/2019 at 1:08 PM, JoeCanada said:

I believe that the Gog-Magog war is the same as the Battle of Armageddon.

Let’s examine why it must occur during the 70th Week of Daniel:

  • Israel is living in false security (Ezek. 38:11). Look at Israel today. It does not live securely. Only a deceptive peace treaty will fool them into doing so.
  •  
  • God refers to Gog as “you are the one of whom I spoke in former days through my servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days for many years that I would bring you against them” (Ezek. 38: 17 NASB). This can only refer to the Antichrist, and the Antichrist only arises and attacks Israel at the Midpoint of Daniel’s 70th Week.
  •  
  • God states that he will rain hail, fire, and brimstone on the forces of Gog. (Ezek. 38:22) This only occurs during the First Trumpet judgment. This time stamps that event as occurring at the beginning of the Seventh Year of the 70th Week of Daniel.
  •  
  • After God defeats Gog and his army, God feeds them to the birds of the air (Ezek. 39: 17-20). This is an exact match with Rev. 19: 17 -18 where God calls the birds to gather to feast on the bodies of the Antichrist forces after the Battle of Armageddon.
  •  
  • God calls Gog’s forces a cloud that covers the land which is a match with God’s description of them in Joel 2:2.
  •  
  • After the battle, the Jewish captives are released and brought back to the land (Ezek. 39: 25-28). This happens after the Battle of Armageddon, and cannot happen prior to that point according to all the other pictures of the 70th Week. This passage also claims that from that day forward, God will not allow a single Jew will be left behind in the nations. This is rock solid evidence that this can only refer to the end of the 70thWeek.
  •  
  • After this battle, God will not let his Holy Name be profaned any more (Ezek. 39: 7). This can only happen at the conclusion of the 70th Week of Daniel. It is utter nonsense to believe that this can apply to a time before the 70th Week.
  •  
  • After the Battle, Israel knows the Lord is God from that point on forever (Ezek. 39: 22). Again, this can only happen at the conclusion of the 70th Week.
  •  
  • God announces that this “is the day of which I have spoken” (Ezek. 39:8 NASB).
  •  
  • After the battle, God pours out his Spirit on Israel (Ezek. 39:29).
  •  
  • Finally, in Ezek. 38: 19-20 we learn that Jesus is physically present on the earth. As we have seen all of these aspects can only be fulfilled at the conclusion of Daniel’s 70th Week and at no other time.

Hello brother, just a few questions/points to ponder. Where is Israel's immediate neighbors at in this Gog & Magog war ? Here is how they are listed.

Ezekiel 38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: 4.......... 5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: 6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

So Russia is joined by Iran, Turkey, by much of North Africa {seeing as Put was actually not only Libya but Tunisia and parts of Algeria}. None of Israel's immediate neighbors is mentioned, not even Egypt. Not one nation mentioned has a border with Israel, so there must be another war {Psalm 83 War} that comes before this War of Gog and Magog. Israel must defeat them first, after they no doubt attack Israel, but they are no doubt put in their place.

1.) The war of Israeli Extermination {Psalm 83} 

Psalm 83:3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. 4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

The Nations mentioned add up to these, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Gaza. The second part of the chapter is a Prayer for victory, we are not told specifically who wins the war. But other scriptures tells us who wins.

Zechariah 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

This is why Israel can live without WALLS brother in these End Times, she defeats all of her surrounding neighbors, who no doubt try to annihilate Israel, but it backfires on them. The rest of the Muslim nations get angry and start bellyaching to Russia who then comes after them, along with Turkey, much of North Africa and Iran. God defeats them. So I don't think the Gog Magog War of Ezekiel is the same as the one in Revelation which comes after Jesus' 1000 year reign, nor is it the Armageddon War. I think this sets up the Anti-Christ to move in and make his peace, Israel are said to BURN WEAPONS for 7 Years after this Gog & Magog War....Here is where we have to think....If Jesus is in control He just cleans all the world up via the power of his Spoken Word. If it was not at least 3.5 years before the 70th Week Tribulation then the last 3.5 years of burning their weapons would be under the Ari-Christ, and I don't think that would work out in reality, he wouldn't allow them to do anything. 

Its convoluted no doubt, but there are enough MARKERS that we can get a general idea of what is and what is not possible. One thing we know, God is going to defeat the Wicked. Amen. 

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19 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

One thing we know, God is going to defeat the Wicked. Amen. 

Amen.

When He executes His Vengeance ,  it is not even a struggle - it is simply done, and none can resist Him.

We only need endure until the end to see our salvation drawing nigh(coming to us).

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1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:
Quote

Hi Light,

" Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood. As the Church will be in heaven during the 70th week."

This has been brought up a number of times.

A very careful reading of Gen 7:11-17 says different. 

Hey Joe,

Wait a second, you said a very careful reading. Let's proceed carefully and see what is really said.

Quote

Yes, chapter 7 verse 1 does tells us that God told Noah and his household was to enter the Ark.....BUT, read on.....

Yes, Noah is told to enter the ark in verse 1.

Quote

 

Verse 6 ....."Now  Noah was 600 years old when the flood of water came upon the earth.

Verse 7......"THEN, Noah and his sons and his wife and  and his sons' wives with him ENTERED the ark because of the water  of the flood.

 

Let's read a little more carefully.

Gen 7

And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

 

Noah had already done what the Lord commanded. We see that in verse 5.  Then the flood comes in verse 6. Verse 7-12 is just a rehash of verses 1-6, with additional information.  And that information includes the fact that Noah, his family and animals entered the ark and that it came to pass after 7 days that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

 

And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

 

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:
Quote

Verse 13......"On the very same day that Noah (and company) entered the ark (then it describes the animals thru to verse 16)

Verse 16....."Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him, and the Lord closed it behind him"

Verse 17....THEN the flood came upon the earth...."

So, God told Noah in verse 1 of chapter 7 to enter the Ark, " You are to take with you of every clean animal by sevens......

This was no small task. The Ark was enormous. It would have taken more than just ONE DAY to load it up. "After 7 more days, I will send rain....". Right here it tells us how long it took Noah to load the Ark.

Now,  read verses 6 to 17.  It makes perfect sense. Verse 13, 16 and 17 tells us all we need to know.

Gen 7

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Verses 13-17 is just a rehash of verses 1-6 and 7-12 with additional information, and that information tells us that on the SAME DAY, Noah, his family and all the animals were loaded onto the ark. That's not 7 days, it's one day, the SELFSAME DAY. And that selfsame day that they all entered occurred when they were instructed to enter. And it came to pass 7 days later that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

 

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Posted (edited)

I tend to see the Noah and the Ark thing as more representative of Israel at the end times.  They will be carried thru that time and as a people be saved thru it.

I see Lot as more representative of the redeemed at the start of the period.  Just as all the calamities of what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah could not begin until Lot and his family were removed, the calamities that define the specific end time before Yeshua returns to the planet cannot begin until the redeemed are removed.  

We can speculate the patterns we see and how they apply to the end, and I think we can agree that prophecy is pattern as much as it is prediction. And finding those patterns is one of the fascinations of studying scripture.

While I am pre-trib, or probably should be more aptly called... pre 70th week, the one other position that I can concede to some level is mid-trib, or as I prefer to call it...  mid 70th week.  The concept can be viewed in some passages.  But not enough to convince me.. :)    

But as Bob Dylan sang on his first album as a new believer, there is a slow train coming up around the bend.  The number of markers that things are coming to that time are overwhelming.  I even read stuff from secular folks that seem to realize that there is something coming on the world that they have no clue how to prepare and deal with.  There is a certain uneasiness and apprehension of where the world is heading.   If unbelievers can sense something coming, even if they can't explain it, then what does that mean for those of us who do understand what is coming?   We had better get out of our comfort zone and get to work.  

Edited by OldCoot
Spelling. Stupid spell checker!

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