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Mid Trib rapture anyone?

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20 hours ago, OldCoot said:
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I tend to see the Noah and the Ark thing as more representative of Israel at the end times.  They will be carried thru that time and as a people be saved thru it.

Noah in the ark 7 days before the flood represents the church raptured before the 70th week.

Quote

I see Lot as more representative of the redeemed at the start of the period.  Just as all the calamities of what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah could not begin until Lot and his family were removed, the calamities that define the specific end time before Yeshua returns to the planet cannot begin until the redeemed are removed.  

Lot being removed the day Sodom is destroyed represents the 12 tribes being raptured the day God's wrath begins.

Quote

We can speculate the patterns we see and how they apply to the end, and I think we can agree that prophecy is pattern as much as it is prediction. And finding those patterns is one of the fascinations of studying scripture.

Agreed, but there is a reason that Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. And there is a reason that the very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, The Light said:

Noah in the ark 7 days before the flood represents the church raptured before the 70th week.

I can see the appearance of that.  The only fly in the ointment is that Noah was protected and preserved thru the flood, not taken away from it.  Likewise, the Woman (Israel / Jacob) is taken to the wilderness and preserved thru the last 3.5 years per Revelation 12, and supported by Daniel 12:11.... after the sacrifices are cut off and the abomination of desolation occurs at the temple. Like Noah, not taken out of the earth during the calamities, but preserved thru them.   And there is support for the idea that Israel will be preserved in Sela, or the what would be called Petra in Jordan.   Unlike the redeemed who are removed entirely from the earth.

It could be possible that the 7 days from the time Noah was sealed in the ark till the flood stared could be equated to Israel being sealed away in protection 7 days before the ultimate outpouring of judgment by the Lord upon those who dwell on the earth.  Just speculation, but not unreasonable.  It is going to take a little time to get Israel all tucked away from the grasp of the antichrist.

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Lot being removed the day Sodom is destroyed represents the 12 tribes being raptured the day God's wrath begins.

In this case, Lot is the example of the redeemed for the reason the redeemed are totally removed from the earth like Lot and his family were totally removed from the city before destruction came.   He and his family did not hide out in a bomb shelter in the city while destruction came  upon it.    Then is becomes a debate on when the "wrath" of the Lord starts at the end time.  Keep in mind, in the Lot story in Genesis, the first use of the word that is equivalent to "wrath" is not until chapter 49 of Genesis.  Long after both the Flood account and the S&G account.  Yet, it is clear that the destruction of S&G was the wrath of the Lord even though "wrath" was not used.

And if the 12 tribes are raptured at or before the wrath begins, then who is Jacob/Israel that will still pass under the rod and be separated by the Lord when He physically returns and sets up His kingdom on earth?   Ezekiel says that has to happen and seems supported in Matthew 25 regarding the maidens (virgins) which are the bridesmaids, not the bride which is the church.  And it cannot be the sheep and goat separation of Matthew 25, because that is specifically the nations that are gathered and separated as supported in Joel 3.

And folks from all the tribes have to be around to acknowledge their rejection of Yeshua before He can return.  Yeshua made that clear in Hosea 5:15 and emphasized it in Matthew 23. He would return to His place until they acknowledge their offense and quote Psalm 118... Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.  A clear reference to the Messiah from a Messianic Psalm.

And, just because the word "wrath" doesn't show up till the 6th seal in Revelation does not negate the idea that it actually starts at the 1st seal and is now finally realized by those on the earth that what has been going on has been the wrath of the Lamb all along.  We probably should not base a doctrine in total by what the unredeemed people of the earth being judged are saying about these things.  After all, none of the seal events can start unless the Lamb had opened them.  So it can reasonably be argued that all the seals are under the direction of the Lamb and therefore constitute the beginning of His wrath.  I guess one has to see it like a Rabbi or a Lawyer to understand the connection.  I may not be the one who robbed the bank, but the actual thieves could not get into the vault until I opened it for them.  Therefore, I initiated the robbery and am guilty of it.  

But we can have fun looking at these various things and many see different aspects to them.  We are trying to see, in our limited 4 dimension reality, how a God who is several magnitudes of dimensions beyond what we can conceptualize lays these things out.  Likewise, the scripture is a holographic image that only takes shape when the light that created it then illuminates it.  For any of us to be too dogmatic in how these things play out risks being arrogant in our own conceits. There are so many layers to what is actual reality.  We can only see a slice of it at a time.   As Paul stated, we see thru a mirror dimly.  One day we will see clearly.

Cliff

Edited by OldCoot

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8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

It could be possible that the 7 days from the time Noah was sealed in the ark till the flood stared could be equated to Israel being sealed away in protection 7 days before the ultimate outpouring of judgment by the Lord upon those who dwell on the earth.  Just speculation, but not unreasonable.  It is going to take a little time to get Israel all tucked away from the grasp of the antichrist.

No, I don't think it is going to take time for Israel to get tucked away. They are told to flee immediately and not go in the house to grab anything.

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

And if the 12 tribes are raptured at or before the wrath begins, then who is Jacob/Israel that will still pass under the rod and be separated by the Lord when He physically returns and sets up His kingdom on earth?   Ezekiel says that has to happen and seems supported in Matthew 25 regarding the maidens (virgins) which are the bridesmaids, not the bride which is the church.  And it cannot be the sheep and goat separation of Matthew 25, because that is specifically the nations that are gathered and separated as supported in Joel 3.

And folks from all the tribes have to be around to acknowledge their rejection of Yeshua before He can return.  Yeshua made that clear in Hosea 5:15 and emphasized it in Matthew 23. He would return to His place until they acknowledge their offense and quote Psalm 118... Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.  A clear reference to the Messiah from a Messianic Psalm.

The 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth will be raptured before wrath begins, immediately after the tribulation of those days. It is only the nation of Israel that goes through the wrath of God and they do so in a place of protection. The church will be in heaven before the tribulation begins as that is the time of Jacobs trouble.

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:
Quote

And, just because the word "wrath" doesn't show up till the 6th seal in Revelation does not negate the idea that it actually starts at the 1st seal and is now finally realized by those on the earth that what has been going on has been the wrath of the Lamb all along.  We probably should not base a doctrine in total by what the unredeemed people of the earth being judged are saying about these things.  After all, none of the seal events can start unless the Lamb had opened them.  So it can reasonably be argued that all the seals are under the direction of the Lamb and therefore constitute the beginning of His wrath.  I guess one has to see it like a Rabbi or a Lawyer to understand the connection.  I may not be the one who robbed the bank, but the actual thieves could not get into the vault until I opened it for them.  Therefore, I initiated the robbery and am guilty of it.  

What we can be sure of is that the Day of the Lord does not occur until the 6th seal.

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, The Light said:

What we can be sure of is that the Day of the Lord does not occur until the 6th seal.

Ok then, when does the antichrist come on the scene?   Which seal?

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On 6/14/2019 at 8:48 AM, The Light said:

Eze 38

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Those walls will be up until AFTER Christ returns with the armies of heaven.

Hi Light,

This is an article by Joel Richardson, author and scholar. There are a lot of great articles on his site....Joelstrumpet.com.....look at "free resources"

This isn't directed at you per say, but to anyone looking at a further explanation for the Gog-Magog....Rev 20...Ezekiel 38-39.

Ya, it's a wee bit lengthy, but it's a good read.

This should probably have its own thread, as its not really  part of a mid-trib rapture discussion.

 

Understanding the Timing of the Battle of Gog and Magog

Joel Richardson

The Prophet Ezekiel’s Prophecy of “the Battle of Gog of Magog,” is simply another retelling of the many Antichrist prophecies found throughout the Bible. As such, Ezekiel’s Gog and his hordes will be destroyed at the end of this current age, when Jesus returns, just before the onset of His one thousand year millennial reign. The Gog and Magog of Revelation 20, however is a different event that takes place at the end of the thousand year reign of the Messiah.

Amillennialists most often argue that the Gog and Magog described in Revelation 20 and the Gog and Magog described in Ezekiel 38-39 are one and the same. This is the primary view which I will seek to address in this article. A small number of Premillennialists also believe that Ezekiel’s Gog prophecy and Revelation’s Gog prophecy are one and the same. I will also briefly touch on this view.

First, let’s read the text in Revelation:

When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (Revelation 20:7-9)

So while it is clear that both Revelation and Ezekiel do indeed use the same terms to describe an event that shares some commonalities, (they both describe an attempted attack on God’s people), there are also some very clear distinction between both prophecies.

The first distinction is that the attempted invasion of Revelation’s account is described as an utter failure. Before the invaders even begin to accomplish their goals, they are consumed by fire outside of the camp of the saints. The invasion described in Ezekiel 38-39, on the other hand is described as anything but a failure. Consider this very important, but often overlooked detail in Ezekiel’s account: By the time that Ezekiel’s Gog Magog invasion is defeated, a majority of the people of Israel are described as captives, essentially prisoners of war in the land of their enemies.

“And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward. The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid My face from them. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, “Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name. They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 39:22-29)

The second distinction between Ezekiel’s Gog account and Revelation’s is that Revelation’s invaders do not even enter, “the camp of the saints,” but are devoured by fire as they merely surround the camp. On the other hand, the invaders of Ezekiel are destroyed throughout the actual land of Israel. These distinctions are not insignificant.

Why then the similarity of names? In my opinion, by the time of the writing of the Book of Revelation in the 1st century, the term Gog and Magog had become a well-known motif, similar to the common use of “armageddon” or “apocalypse” today. We might say for example something like, “It was a financial armageddon on Wall Street today.” This has nothing to do however, with the valley of Meggiddo in Israel. Such an expression simply points to nearly any great catastrophe. Because Ezekiel 38 and 39 was essentially the greatest prophetic passage in the Old Testament concerning the final Satanic invasion of Israel, it was what we may very rightly call, “the Armageddon of the Old Testament.” The phrase “Gog and Magog” simply came to be understood as a massive Satanic-led invasion or attack of God’s people in Jerusalem. So the Gog and Magog motif simply points to any massive effort by Satan to gather his hordes and attack to Israel. The Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38—39 and the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20 however, cannot be one and the same. Not only are they clearly separated by a thousand years, but as we already highlighted, their respective attacks have drastically different results. One is utterly successful, the other is an abysmal failure. While Ezekiel is referring to the Antichrist and the events that take place just prior to the Millennium, Revelation 20:7-9 is exactly what it says it is; a very brief event that takes place at the conclusion of the Millennium, one final effort by Satan to do what he had already failed to do just before being chained and cast into the abyss for a thousand years.

Living Securely in the Land

As mentioned above, there are also some Premillennialists who argue that Ezekiel’s Gog Magog event takes place at the end of the thousand year reign. The primary argument made is that Ezekiel describes Israel living with such a sense of security that it could only refer to Israel during the millennial reign of Jesus. To support this, the following passage is cited:

In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you; a mighty army. You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. (Ezekiel 38:14-16; 39:1-3)

This perspective is, in my opinion, untenable and cannot be reconciled with the testimony of Scripture. First, let’s begin by observing that Israel is not truly secure. They are living in fact, in a false state of security. Notice that Gog plans on attacking a people who are described as “unsuspecting”:

You will say, I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. (Ezekiel 38:12, 13)

I believe the issue of Israel living “securely” is merely a perceived sense of security. Consider the fact that the Israelites are about to be invaded. So are they truly living securely or merely living with a relative sense of security? If a person is sleeping securely in their bed and seven murderous and well-armed thieves are only moments away from breaking into the house to rob and kill, can it truly be said that the unsuspecting person sleeping is secure? Or it is merely a perceived security? Such is the precisely the case with Israel in Ezekiel’s prophecy.

I would also argue that while the Israel of today fully recognizes that various threats surround them, they are not presently suspecting any massive military invasion from a foreign nation. The sense in Israel is one of relative security. It is difficult not to see Ezekiel’s description of Israel as anything other than the Israel of today:

“After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.” (Ezekiel 38:8)

The Israel that Ezekiel describes is a people who have been gathered from many nations. They resettled the land which had formerly been a continual waste. And they are living securely. Now consider the fact that the Scriptures inform us that the Antichrist will lull Israel into a false state of security through deception, specifically for the purpose of invading the land:

He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power. (Daniel 8:25)

He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue. (Daniel 11:21)

When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them and will achieve what neither his fathers nor his forefathers did. He will distribute plunder, loot and wealth among his followers. He will plot the overthrow of fortresses—but only for a time. (Daniel 11:24)

So we have seen that the method and scheme of the Antichrist is exactly that of Gog. When the people feel secure, then he will invade them. This is simply because they are simply one and the same individual.

Return of the Captives

Another critical matter is the fact that at the conclusion of Ezekiel’s prophecy concerning Gog and Magog, Israel is being portrayed as returning from the nations of their enemies as prisoners of war. After this, they all come to faith. The Lord pours His spirit on them. Is it at that time that Israel is restored. For that small number of Premillennialists who seek to move Ezekiel’s prophecy to the end of the Millennium, this creates an insurmountable problem. For if the Israelis are not delivered from out of the land of their enemies and do not come to faith until the end of the Millennium, then this would mean that after a thousand years on the earth, Jesus had accomplished essentially nothing in the way of providing security, salvation, or restoration. In such a scenario, Jesus could only be viewed as an impotent Messiah and King.

Further Arguments

Another issue is the fact that the Lord states that all of the other (preEzekielian) prophets spoke about Gog:

You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. (Ezekiel 38:17)

If all of the other prophets before Ezekiel spoke of the Gog invasion at the end of the Millennium, then where are these many references within the Scriptures? One will be very hard pressed to produce a single such reference, though it is quite easy to find many prophecies about the Antichrist among these prophets.

Conclusion

In conclusion, the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38—39 and the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20 are two different individuals and two different events, separated by a thousand years.

Edited by JoeCanada
added to it

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5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Ok then, when does the antichrist come on the scene?   Which seal?

Now this is a tough question. It's much tougher than you may realize. I could tell you the answer is the first seal, the rider on the white horse. And if someone says that the rider on the white horse is the Antichrist, I would not argue as it only would only confuse things. I'd just roll with it.

I think you will find though that the rider on the white horse is the prince that shall come. He is not the Antichrist. The rider on the white horse is the 7th king. There will be an eighth king that will come who will be one of the seven.  The eighth king is the Antichrist, the King of Babylon, who has the wound of the sword and does live. I have never really studied what seal I thought he will come in. But I think I can figure that it is the 4th or 5th, most likely the 5th

This of course will be very confusing for you to understand as your timeline will not likely be anywhere near what mine will be.

 

Edited by The Light

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25 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Light,

This is an article by Joel Richardson, author and scholar. There are a lot of great articles on his site....Joelstrumpet.com.....look at "free resources"

This isn't directed at you per say, but to anyone looking at a further explanation for the Gog-Magog....Rev 20...Ezekiel 38-39.

Ya, it's a wee bit lengthy, but it's a good read.

This should probably have its own thread, as its not really  part of a mid-trib rapture discussion.

 

Understanding the Timing of the Battle of Gog and Magog

Joel Richardson

The Prophet Ezekiel’s Prophecy of “the Battle of Gog of Magog,” is simply another retelling of the many Antichrist prophecies found throughout the Bible. As such, Ezekiel’s Gog and his hordes will be destroyed at the end of this current age, when Jesus returns, just before the onset of His one thousand year millennial reign. The Gog and Magog of Revelation 20, however is a different event that takes place at the end of the thousand year reign of the Messiah.

Amillennialists most often argue that the Gog and Magog described in Revelation 20 and the Gog and Magog described in Ezekiel 38-39 are one and the same. This is the primary view which I will seek to address in this article. A small number of Premillennialists also believe that Ezekiel’s Gog prophecy and Revelation’s Gog prophecy are one and the same. I will also briefly touch on this view.

First, let’s read the text in Revelation:

When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (Revelation 20:7-9)

So while it is clear that both Revelation and Ezekiel do indeed use the same terms to describe an event that shares some commonalities, (they both describe an attempted attack on God’s people), there are also some very clear distinction between both prophecies.

The first distinction is that the attempted invasion of Revelation’s account is described as an utter failure. Before the invaders even begin to accomplish their goals, they are consumed by fire outside of the camp of the saints. The invasion described in Ezekiel 38-39, on the other hand is described as anything but a failure. Consider this very important, but often overlooked detail in Ezekiel’s account: By the time that Ezekiel’s Gog Magog invasion is defeated, a majority of the people of Israel are described as captives, essentially prisoners of war in the land of their enemies.

“And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward. The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid My face from them. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, “Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name. They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 39:22-29)

The second distinction between Ezekiel’s Gog account and Revelation’s is that Revelation’s invaders do not even enter, “the camp of the saints,” but are devoured by fire as they merely surround the camp. On the other hand, the invaders of Ezekiel are destroyed throughout the actual land of Israel. These distinctions are not insignificant.

Why then the similarity of names? In my opinion, by the time of the writing of the Book of Revelation in the 1st century, the term Gog and Magog had become a well-known motif, similar to the common use of “armageddon” or “apocalypse” today. We might say for example something like, “It was a financial armageddon on Wall Street today.” This has nothing to do however, with the valley of Meggiddo in Israel. Such an expression simply points to nearly any great catastrophe. Because Ezekiel 38 and 39 was essentially the greatest prophetic passage in the Old Testament concerning the final Satanic invasion of Israel, it was what we may very rightly call, “the Armageddon of the Old Testament.” The phrase “Gog and Magog” simply came to be understood as a massive Satanic-led invasion or attack of God’s people in Jerusalem. So the Gog and Magog motif simply points to any massive effort by Satan to gather his hordes and attack to Israel. The Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38—39 and the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20 however, cannot be one and the same. Not only are they clearly separated by a thousand years, but as we already highlighted, their respective attacks have drastically different results. One is utterly successful, the other is an abysmal failure. While Ezekiel is referring to the Antichrist and the events that take place just prior to the Millennium, Revelation 20:7-9 is exactly what it says it is; a very brief event that takes place at the conclusion of the Millennium, one final effort by Satan to do what he had already failed to do just before being chained and cast into the abyss for a thousand years.

Living Securely in the Land

As mentioned above, there are also some Premillennialists who argue that Ezekiel’s Gog Magog event takes place at the end of the thousand year reign. The primary argument made is that Ezekiel describes Israel living with such a sense of security that it could only refer to Israel during the millennial reign of Jesus. To support this, the following passage is cited:

In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you; a mighty army. You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. (Ezekiel 38:14-16; 39:1-3)

This perspective is, in my opinion, untenable and cannot be reconciled with the testimony of Scripture. First, let’s begin by observing that Israel is not truly secure. They are living in fact, in a false state of security. Notice that Gog plans on attacking a people who are described as “unsuspecting”:

You will say, I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. (Ezekiel 38:12, 13)

I believe the issue of Israel living “securely” is merely a perceived sense of security. Consider the fact that the Israelites are about to be invaded. So are they truly living securely or merely living with a relative sense of security? If a person is sleeping securely in their bed and seven murderous and well-armed thieves are only moments away from breaking into the house to rob and kill, can it truly be said that the unsuspecting person sleeping is secure? Or it is merely a perceived security? Such is the precisely the case with Israel in Ezekiel’s prophecy.

I would also argue that while the Israel of today fully recognizes that various threats surround them, they are not presently suspecting any massive military invasion from a foreign nation. The sense in Israel is one of relative security. It is difficult not to see Ezekiel’s description of Israel as anything other than the Israel of today:

“After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.” (Ezekiel 38:8)

The Israel that Ezekiel describes is a people who have been gathered from many nations. They resettled the land which had formerly been a continual waste. And they are living securely. Now consider the fact that the Scriptures inform us that the Antichrist will lull Israel into a false state of security through deception, specifically for the purpose of invading the land:

He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power. (Daniel 8:25)

He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue. (Daniel 11:21)

When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them and will achieve what neither his fathers nor his forefathers did. He will distribute plunder, loot and wealth among his followers. He will plot the overthrow of fortresses—but only for a time. (Daniel 11:24)

So we have seen that the method and scheme of the Antichrist is exactly that of Gog. When the people feel secure, then he will invade them. This is simply because they are simply one and the same individual.

Return of the Captives

Another critical matter is the fact that at the conclusion of Ezekiel’s prophecy concerning Gog and Magog, Israel is being portrayed as returning from the nations of their enemies as prisoners of war. After this, they all come to faith. The Lord pours His spirit on them. Is it at that time that Israel is restored. For that small number of Premillennialists who seek to move Ezekiel’s prophecy to the end of the Millennium, this creates an insurmountable problem. For if the Israelis are not delivered from out of the land of their enemies and do not come to faith until the end of the Millennium, then this would mean that after a thousand years on the earth, Jesus had accomplished essentially nothing in the way of providing security, salvation, or restoration. In such a scenario, Jesus could only be viewed as an impotent Messiah and King.

Further Arguments

Another issue is the fact that the Lord states that all of the other (preEzekielian) prophets spoke about Gog:

You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. (Ezekiel 38:17)

If all of the other prophets before Ezekiel spoke of the Gog invasion at the end of the Millennium, then where are these many references within the Scriptures? One will be very hard pressed to produce a single such reference, though it is quite easy to find many prophecies about the Antichrist among these prophets.

Conclusion

In conclusion, the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38—39 and the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20 are two different individuals and two different events, separated by a thousand years.

Thanks Joe, but those are very weak arguments.

I could take it apart piece by piece, but it's not really necessary as these statements are all that needs to be said.

Gog Magog is after the 1000 years when the walls of Israel are no more. There is a specific group of people who come against Israel:

Eze 38

Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

These people are coming with horses and swords.

Armageddon on the other hand is all the nations of the world coming against Israel and ultimately God.

Two completely different groups of people which prove without doubt that Joel Richardson is wrong.

 

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1 hour ago, The Light said:

The eighth king is the Antichrist, the King of Babylon, who has the wound of the sword and does live. I have never really studied what seal I thought he will come in. But I think I can figure that it is the 4th or 5th, most likely the 5th

So then the redeemed are taken out prior to the 4th or 5th seal then?

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6 hours ago, OldCoot said:

So then the redeemed are taken out prior to the 4th or 5th seal then?

The Church is caught up pretrib or pre 70th week. We can see them in heaven in Rev 4 and 5 before the seals are opened. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Then God turns his attention toward the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. We can prove that by the 144,000 first fruits. The first fruits guarantee a harvest and the harvest is the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. This occurs at the 6th seal. The very day Lot leaves Sodom, destruction comes.

Matt 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

Matt 24

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This is a gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. That does not include the nation of Israel as they go through the wrath of God in a place of protection, that is, the ones that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, The Light said:

This is a gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. That does not include the nation of Israel as they go through the wrath of God in a place of protection, that is, the ones that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up.

You delineate 12 tribes from Israel.  How does that work?   Israel is the name given Jacob, which was the father of the twelve tribes.  The woman of Revelation 12 is the twelve tribes of Israel per Genesis 37.  And the woman is preserved thru this period of calamity.  That is why I seem to be missing something.... you write that the 12 tribes are removed and Israel remains and is preserved thru the tribulation period, but Israel (Jacob) constitutes the 12 tribes.

Also, for clarity, Yeshua stated in Hosea 5 that He would not return again until both Judah and Ephraim (read: all twelve tribes - Israel - Jacob) acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him and petition for Him to restore them.   And it would be in their affliction that they would do this, quite probably an illusion to Jeremiah 30:7 which refers to Jacob which is the 12 tribes, and the period alluded to is the tribulation period we are dialoguing about.   If as you say the 12 tribes are removed before the wrath, then who is left to acknowledge the offense in their affliction and petition for Yeshua's return to restore them?  

This is why I don't follow your line of reasoning here, or maybe reading it wrong. I am old and do that sometimes :). There are indeed 12,000 of each of 12 tribes that are singled out, but they do not constitute the 12 tribes en masse. 

And when Yeshua does return, per Ezekiel 20 He will cause all the tribes of Israel (Jacob) to pass under the rod and separate out the rebellious ones.  I am convinced the parable of the maidens in Matthew 25 is an illusion to this.  if the 12 tribes were already taken out earlier, then how does that work? Were the rebellious ones also raptured out with the righteous?  Now that would be a new twist on the rapture concept.

Edited by OldCoot

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