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Spock

Mid Trib rapture anyone?

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1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

You delineate 12 tribes from Israel.  How does that work?   Israel is the name given Jacob, which was the father of the twelve tribes.  The woman of Revelation 12 is the twelve tribes of Israel per Genesis 37.  And the woman is preserved thru this period of calamity.  That is why I seem to be missing something.... you write that the 12 tribes are removed and Israel remains and is preserved thru the tribulation period, but Israel (Jacob) constitutes the 12 tribes.

Also, for clarity, Yeshua stated in Hosea 5 that He would not return again until both Judah and Ephraim (read: all twelve tribes - Israel - Jacob) acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him and petition for Him to restore them.   And it would be in their affliction that they would do this, quite probably an illusion to Jeremiah 30:7 which refers to Jacob which is the 12 tribes, and the period alluded to is the tribulation period we are dialoguing about.   If as you say the 12 tribes are removed before the wrath, then who is left to acknowledge the offense in their affliction and petition for Yeshua's return to restore them?  

This is why I don't follow your line of reasoning here, or maybe reading it wrong. I am old and do that sometimes :). There are indeed 12,000 of each of 12 tribes that are singled out, but they do not constitute the 12 tribes en masse. 

And when Yeshua does return, per Ezekiel 20 He will cause all the tribes of Israel (Jacob) to pass under the rod and separate out the rebellious ones.  I am convinced the parable of the maidens in Matthew 25 is an illusion to this.  if the 12 tribes were already taken out earlier, then how does that work? Were the rebellious ones also raptured out with the righteous?  Now that would be a new twist on the rapture concept.

I think you are following what I am saying. And yes, I do separate the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth from those that are in the physical nation of Israel. I do this because that is what the scripture says happens.

Most people that believe in the pretrib rapture find it necessary for the verses in Matt 24 to be the second coming of Christ when He sets up His kingdom on earth. That's clearly not the case. It is the gathering by the angels from heaven and earth. It will be time for the marriage supper.

If God says that there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes, that means that there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes. The 144,000 will be witnessing to the 12 tribes that are around the world. They will look up and when their redemption draws nigh as they will know that the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

If you look at the feasts of Israel you will find that they tell you what will happen.

Edited by The Light

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Yeah, the feasts are great! As is the fascinating ways the Torah shows the Messiah.   One I am in awe of is how Tabernacles and the corresponding Beit Hashoevah ceremony ties John 7-8 and Jeremiah 17:13-14.  One of those little nuggets the HS gave us.

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On 6/14/2019 at 1:22 PM, Revelation Man said:

Hello brother, just a few questions/points to ponder. Where is Israel's immediate neighbors at in this Gog & Magog war ? Here is how they are listed.

Ezekiel 38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: 4.......... 5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: 6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

So Russia is joined by Iran, Turkey, by much of North Africa {seeing as Put was actually not only Libya but Tunisia and parts of Algeria}. None of Israel's immediate neighbors is mentioned, not even Egypt. Not one nation mentioned has a border with Israel, so there must be another war {Psalm 83 War} that comes before this War of Gog and Magog. Israel must defeat them first, after they no doubt attack Israel, but they are no doubt put in their place.

1.) The war of Israeli Extermination {Psalm 83} 

Psalm 83:3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. 4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

The Nations mentioned add up to these, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Gaza. The second part of the chapter is a Prayer for victory, we are not told specifically who wins the war. But other scriptures tells us who wins.

Zechariah 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

This is why Israel can live without WALLS brother in these End Times, she defeats all of her surrounding neighbors, who no doubt try to annihilate Israel, but it backfires on them. The rest of the Muslim nations get angry and start bellyaching to Russia who then comes after them, along with Turkey, much of North Africa and Iran. God defeats them. So I don't think the Gog Magog War of Ezekiel is the same as the one in Revelation which comes after Jesus' 1000 year reign, nor is it the Armageddon War. I think this sets up the Anti-Christ to move in and make his peace, Israel are said to BURN WEAPONS for 7 Years after this Gog & Magog War....Here is where we have to think....If Jesus is in control He just cleans all the world up via the power of his Spoken Word. If it was not at least 3.5 years before the 70th Week Tribulation then the last 3.5 years of burning their weapons would be under the Ari-Christ, and I don't think that would work out in reality, he wouldn't allow them to do anything. 

Its convoluted no doubt, but there are enough MARKERS that we can get a general idea of what is and what is not possible. One thing we know, God is going to defeat the Wicked. Amen. 

I don't see why the 7 years of burning weapons couldn't happen during the first seven years of the millennium. There are many other things that happen during the millennium. Look at this passage from Isaiah:

And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war. – Isaiah 2:4

Is this not AFTER Jesus returns to rule?.....In the millennium?

If all things are provided supernaturally by Jesus in such a way that even fuel is not needed, then why then will there be need for plowing and pruning? Will Jesus not also “provide for everyone’s needs” by magically plowing the earth and pruning trees? In the same way that Ezekiel portrays weapons of warfare being converted into fuel for domestic and agricultural purposes, so also do Isaiah and Micah speak of converting weapons (swords and spears) into plowshares and pruning hooks for agricultural purposes. The prophetic/poetic portrayals of burning weapons for fuel in Ezekiel and the hammering of weapons into plowshares in Isaiah for agriculture are essentially identical.

 

According to Isaiah, after Jesus returns, the nations which formerly persecuted and hated Israel will participate in the rebuilding of the city of Jerusalem and the nation of Israel:

[T]he LORD will arise over you, and His glory will be seen upon you. The Gentiles shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. Lift up your eyes all around, and see: they all gather together, they come to you. … Foreigners will rebuild your walls, and their kings will serve you … and they shall call you The City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel. – Isaiah 60:2-4,14

 

During Jesus’ very real earthly kingdom reign, not only will foreigners work to rebuild Jerusalem, but also the Israelis themselves:

Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, they will raise up the former devastations; and they will repair the ruined cities, the desolations of many generations. Strangers will stand and pasture your flocks, and foreigners will be your farmers and your vinedressers. But you will be called the priests of the LORD; you will be spoken of as ministers of our God. You will eat the wealth of nations, and in their riches you will boast. – Isaiah 61:4

The prophet Amos also spoke of the millennial age in very similar ways:

In that day … I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, and they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; they will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, and make gardens and eat their fruit. “I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them,” Says the LORD your God. – Amos 9:11,14-15

 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/18/2019 at 10:36 AM, JoeCanada said:

I don't see why the 7 years of burning weapons couldn't happen during the first seven years of the millennium. There are many other things that happen during the millennium. Look at this passage from Isaiah:

And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war. – Isaiah 2:4

Is this not AFTER Jesus returns to rule?.....In the millennium?

It could, but the burning of weapons wouldn't be good for the environment, I just assume when Jesus returns he wants to clean up the nasty earth. Of course this could just be metaphorhical in nature. 

 

On 6/18/2019 at 10:36 AM, JoeCanada said:

If all things are provided supernaturally by Jesus in such a way that even fuel is not needed, then why then will there be need for plowing and pruning? Will Jesus not also “provide for everyone’s needs” by magically plowing the earth and pruning trees? In the same way that Ezekiel portrays weapons of warfare being converted into fuel for domestic and agricultural purposes, so also do Isaiah and Micah speak of converting weapons (swords and spears) into plowshares and pruning hooks for agricultural purposes. The prophetic/poetic portrayals of burning weapons for fuel in Ezekiel and the hammering of weapons into plowshares in Isaiah for agriculture are essentially identical.

 

I assume they are burning Nukes, I would then assume Jesus would just speak them into oblivion, the waste is very toxic.

 

On 6/18/2019 at 10:36 AM, JoeCanada said:

According to Isaiah, after Jesus returns, the nations which formerly persecuted and hated Israel will participate in the rebuilding of the city of Jerusalem and the nation of Israel:

[T]he LORD will arise over you, and His glory will be seen upon you. The Gentiles shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. Lift up your eyes all around, and see: they all gather together, they come to you. … Foreigners will rebuild your walls, and their kings will serve you … and they shall call you The City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel. – Isaiah 60:2-4,14

 

During Jesus’ very real earthly kingdom reign, not only will foreigners work to rebuild Jerusalem, but also the Israelis themselves:

Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, they will raise up the former devastations; and they will repair the ruined cities, the desolations of many generations. Strangers will stand and pasture your flocks, and foreigners will be your farmers and your vinedressers. But you will be called the priests of the LORD; you will be spoken of as ministers of our God. You will eat the wealth of nations, and in their riches you will boast. – Isaiah 61:4

The prophet Amos also spoke of the millennial age in very similar ways:

In that day … I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, and they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; they will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, and make gardens and eat their fruit. “I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them,” Says the LORD your God. – Amos 9:11,14-15

 

Yes, the world under Jesus will be unlike under Satan.

 

Like I said, these timing issues are complicated. But we do know the Gog/Magog war of Revelation comes a 1000 years after Jesus takes over, so either its a different war than Ezekiel 38 & 39 or the Ezekiel war happens after Jesus reigns for 1000 years, IMHO. 

Edited by Revelation Man

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2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

It could, but the burning of weapons wouldn't be good or the environment, I just assume when Jesus returns he wants to clean up the nasty earth. Of course this could just be metaphorhical in nature. 

 

I assume they are burning Nukes, I would the ssume Jesus would just speak them into oblivion, the waste is very toxic.

 

Yes, the world under Jesus will be unlike under Satan.

 

Like I said, these timing issues are complicated. But we do know the Gog/Magog war of Revelation comes a 1000 years after Jesus takes over, so either its a different war than Ezekiel 38 & 39 or the Ezekiel war happens after Jesus reigns for 1000 years, IMHO. 

Hi Revman,

Which Gog/Magog war in Revelation are you referring to? .........The one in Rev 19....or the one in Rev 20?

The one in Rev 19: 14-19....."The armies which are in heaven....were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations.......And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army......And the beast and false prophet were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.....And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh....."

Rev 20: 7-10......"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for war.......And they came up and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them......And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are.....

The one in Rev 19 occurs during the tribulation

The one in Rev 20 occurs after the 1000 years are up

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Hey Marilyn,

On 2/26/2019 at 12:50 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

I see. Yes there are so many comments and some quite long. You do well to read them all and ponder. Thanks for that info.

So for `the tribulation.`

The time slot has been set by Jesus as just prior to His return, (to deliver Israel and judge the nations). Jesus specifically links it to the `Abomination of Desolation,` spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Daniel specifies this event to be fulfilled during the seven years of Gentile Dominion. (Dan. 9: 24 - 27)

`Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city.....Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week, (unit of seven years).` 

When the tribulation (7 years) starts, people are saying "Peace & Safety," and then `sudden destruction,` starting off small, (as pains on a pregnant woman) and then gradually intensify.   The `Abomination of Desolation` in the middle of the `week,` (seven years) marks the time of great tribulation. The labour pains of the tribulation, have greatly intensified.

Note in Matthew 24: 8 we read, `All these are the beginning of sorrows.`  ` Sorrows,` Gk. word `odin,` meaning a pang or throe esp, of childbirth.  So the Lord is saying that there will be wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes, and these are the beginning of sorrows, (esp. childbirth)(like pains upon a pregnant woman, Paul says) 

Thus we see the beginning of the tribulation, (time of sorrows like child birth) through to the Great tribulation with the A/D. Then the Lord says `after the tribulation of those days, (not just the great tribulation, but the (whole) tribulation of those days), the powers of heaven will be shaken and He will return with His mighty angels.

Hope that helps, Marilyn.

Hi again Marilyn,

ive been doing my study again, which usually means I don’t show up here much, and now I would like to ask a small favor of you again.....would you mind showing me your visual timeline of the seals, trumpets, and bowls, and if you don’t mind, explain why you have placed them where you believe the scripture shows them to be. Thanks again....

spock

ps. I think you already did this so,where in this thread, but there are too many pages to go back through. If you don’t mind.....

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14 hours ago, Spock said:

Hey Marilyn,

Hi again Marilyn,

ive been doing my study again, which usually means I don’t show up here much, and now I would like to ask a small favor of you again.....would you mind showing me your visual timeline of the seals, trumpets, and bowls, and if you don’t mind, explain why you have placed them where you believe the scripture shows them to be. Thanks again....

spock

ps. I think you already did this so,where in this thread, but there are too many pages to go back through. If you don’t mind.....

Hi Spock,

That`s fine, we all come and go somewhat. am travelling at the moment so can`t really do a diagram and then scan etc, but will give you one I already have. Hope it helps. I think the diagram with the chapters explains somewhat. Any comments or questions I`ll get back to you on the week-end when we can get internet.

regards, Marilyn.

Overviewbychapters..jpg.896646b088680e5d1429bee22cf6eb4a.jpg

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On 6/19/2019 at 3:00 PM, JoeCanada said:

Hi Revman,

Which Gog/Magog war in Revelation are you referring to? .........The one in Rev 19....or the one in Rev 20?

The one in Rev 19: 14-19....."The armies which are in heaven....were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations.......And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army......And the beast and false prophet were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.....And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh....."

Rev 20: 7-10......"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for war.......And they came up and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them......And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are.....

The one in Rev 19 occurs during the tribulation

The one in Rev 20 occurs after the 1000 years are up

Sorry, I didn't get a notification or I missed it.  
 

The Rev. 19 war is Armageddon, it can't be the Gog and Magog wars spoken of in Ezekiel 38 and 39. God defeats them on the Mountain of Jerusalem. If you notice the "PLAYERS" it is Russia and a bunch of Islamic nations, but not one of them has a common border with Israel. This tells us that the Psalm 83 War has come to pass and Israel has defeated every nation it has a border with {this makes these nations angry and they g crying to Russia}. That is why I said the Gog/Magog war of Rev. 20 is kinda like "Babylon" being used throughout the book of Revelation as a Metaphor for the WHOLE WORLD.

Likewise Gog and Magog in Rev. 20 is a Metaphor for a once and for all end time battle, it just uses the Gog/Magog phraseology. The Gog/Magog war has to happen after the Psalm 83 war and before the War of Armageddon. That is why I was highlighting the 7 years of burning weapons, if this war is not the War of Armageddon, and the facts says its not, then the war would have to be at least 3.5 years before the rapture {or the beginning of the 70th week if one disagrees with the Rapture for DISCUSSIONS SAKE}, or else the 7 years of burning weapons makes no sense. Israel wouldn't burn weapons during the Beasts rule, he is in charge, not the Jews !! So of the Gog/Magog war happened 3.5 years before the 70th week {Rapture}, then the 7 years of burning weapons could be realized, all the way to the Midway point of the 70th week. 

I haven't studied this in depth yet, but here is what it seems happens.

1.) Psalm 83 War, Israel is invaded by all the countries that borders it, Israel no doubt defeats them and takes over their lands. The Muslims get Angry.

2.) The Gog/Magog War is Russia leading all the Muslim Nations {none have a border with Israel} against Israel, God defeats them o the Mt's. of Israel.

Here is the KEY.....I think this leads to a worldwide call for Peace between these Nations. No one understand Gd wiped them out, they think Israel used some sorta secret weapon, IMHO, some  Jews probably will get it. This E.U. President is a slick willie type smooth talker times 1000, he will talk the two sides into some sorta peace, and get them to trust him, and he gets them to lay down their weapons {burn them}. After 7 years of burning, at the Midway point of the 70th week the Anti-Christ reneges of all his promises and coms after not only Israel, but every nation in the Mediterranean Sea Region. 

Armageddon happens 3.5 years later. 

The "GOG and Magog mention in Rev. 20 is just a Metaphor for a once and for all battle between God and Satan/Mankind under Satan. Remember, there are still sin flesh on earth under Jesus, when Satan is released, he will temp them again, and some will follow. 

 

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On 7/10/2019 at 12:19 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

That`s fine, we all come and go somewhat. am travelling at the moment so can`t really do a diagram and then scan etc, but will give you one I already have. Hope it helps. I think the diagram with the chapters explains somewhat. Any comments or questions I`ll get back to you on the week-end when we can get internet.

regards, Marilyn.

Overviewbychapters..jpg.896646b088680e5d1429bee22cf6eb4a.jpg

Thanks M.,

im going to start another thread on the trumpets and bowls.

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