Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[JohnD]

On 3/25/2019 at 6:42 PM, iamlamad said:

I doubt if you can even show us in Revelation where the days of great tribulation start. I don't see your scriptures here. 

The truth is, there is a REMNANT of believers on earth at the midpoint of the week - as shown in chapter 12. Please tells us - HOW does this remnant (a left over remainder) get OFF the planet shortly after John calls them a remnant?  

Why would you say "extrabiblical?" You know that word Remnant is there!  Perhaps it is because someone else's beliefs don't agree with yours? 

Please: show is in Revelation when the days of great tribulation will begin. 

Then show us where or how the  believers in Jesus (the remnant) got off the planet.

I even made the point that no one can determine when the days of the 70th Week of Daniel begin

UNTIL

the sacrifices of the Jewish Temple are abated.

Daniel 12:11–12 (AV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The 70th Week of Daniel is 7 years of 12 30 day months = 2520 days.  ← how Sir Robert Anderson was able to pin point the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem as the Messiah Prince on 10 Nisan four days before the crucifixion.  69 weeks of 7 years of 12 30 day months = 773880 days after Artaxerxes Longimanus decreed Jerusalem to be rebuilt (Daniel 9:25-27).

1290 days from the end (of human history) the Temple sacrifices will be abated. 

Counting back from the end 2520 days will determine

WHEN

not only the 70th Week begins

but also

WHEN

all these prophetic events of that 7 year time period take place.

 

 

 

[JohnD]

People will not know

the PRECISE DATE

at which point all of this

BEGINS

UNTIL

the Temple sacrifice is abated and they can

backdate the beginning and set a date on events to come

for the remainder of the 70th Week.

As Jesus said with regard to his prophetic advent:

Matthew 16:1–4 (AV)
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

When the Tribulation Temple is built, we can know the 70th Week has begun.

When the sacrifice is stopped, we can know the date when the 70th Week began (and the date of

all of the events of the 70th Week in the chart I provided).

 

[JohnD]

On 3/25/2019 at 3:50 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi JohnD,

I am sorry you thought I lashed out at you, but that was not my intention. I intended to speak the truth, which is very important as we discuss God`s word. If you or I just speak our own thoughts and disregard what God says then WE are placing ourselves above God. I realise that is not your (or my) intention, but it needs to be addressed.

For eg. When you said about the `bias of the pre-trib,` then you are stating YOUR view, and if YOUR view is wrong then you are placing yourself above God. You had no scriptural proof to what you said, so really it was just a `cheap shot,` at the pre-tribbers.

Now on to the `elect.` I have said the elect can also be Israel, you have pointed out the Church as also the `elect.` However we need to connect the dots. You need scriptural internal evidence to prove that the `saints` in the trib, are the Body of Christ. Look for a description or what they say, or sing, etc to see if it shows who they are. THAT then will be your evidence.

No good just stating scriptures, we need to connect them with what we think GOD is saying, not what we assume.

Hope that is clearer, bro, no offence intended, just the importance of not going beyond what God has written, what HE SAYS.

Marilyn.

 

I am glad you quoted me quoting scriptures so that it is plain to see I have been quoting scriptures.:

 

 

Allow me to repeat myself...

ALL THREE ESCHATOLOGICAL CAMPS

quote valid scriptures to support their views of the rapture

(PRE TRIB, MID TRIB, POST TRIB).

This would appear to be a logical impossibility since

the Word of God is infallible.

It puzzled me for years.

Then as I studied this among other prophecies

I learned how Sir Robert Anderson was knighted

for his discovery of the prophetic year (360 days)

and how it pinpointed the day Jesus rode into the Holy City

on the foal of a donkey according to Daniel 9:225-27.

Those who got it wrong or missed it altogether

had the year wrong (365.25 days per year).

Then I learned how the Bible divides the 70th Week of Daniel

in two 3.5 year periods.

1260 days (3.5 years)

42 months (3.5 years)

time (1 year) times (two years) half a time (six months) = 3.5 years.

When you take the time of the patience of the saints (Revelation 13)

as the first half of the 70th Week it aligns with all of the prophecies

about that time and the end.

Satan's "short time" when he turns the nations of the world against the people

of God. That would be the elect who cannot be deceived by this Messianic imposter

(Matthew 24:24) or Holy Spirit-filled believers in Jesus Christ.

No one else will be immune to the deception.

This is when brother will betray brother to death and a parent their child for "my name sake." ← (Jesus')

And believers will be killed for not worhsiping the beast (Revelation 113).

The Great Tribulation will be the last 1/2 of the 70th Week when

GOD judges the world.

First half = Satan's war with God through the slaughter of his people (Christians) by the hand of the peoples of the world.

Last half - God's judgement on Satan and the world begins.

God's people (believer's in Jesus Christ) will not be judged again by God. All his judgment on us was fulfilled on the cross of Christ.

PERIOD.

It is this simple fact that is the very reason there even is a rapture.

[JohnD]

Once we get the actual break down of the 70th Week correct,

we learn how all three eschatological camps can quote

valid scriptures to support their views.

The one rapture takes place

PRE Great Tribulation (before the last 1/2 of the 70th Week)

MID 70th Week (which is not the traditional mid trib view since it erroneously determines that the 70th Week is just 1 seven-year tribulation)

POST Believer's in Jesus tribulation (after the first 1/2 of the 70th Week of Daniel).

[JohnD]

BTW:

"I learned" means I didn't know but was shown by the scriptures that the Holy Spirit

taught / revealed / interpreted and validated with scripture.

This is all about him and not his typist.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

I even made the point that no one can determine when the days of the 70th Week of Daniel begin

UNTIL

the sacrifices of the Jewish Temple are abated.

Daniel 12:11–12 (AV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The 70th Week of Daniel is 7 years of 12 30 day months = 2520 days.  ← how Sir Robert Anderson was able to pin point the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem as the Messiah Prince on 10 Nisan four days before the crucifixion.  69 weeks of 7 years of 12 30 day months = 773880 days after Artaxerxes Longimanus decreed Jerusalem to be rebuilt (Daniel 9:25-27).

1290 days from the end (of human history) the Temple sacrifices will be abated. 

Counting back from the end 2520 days will determine

WHEN

not only the 70th Week begins

but also

WHEN

all these prophetic events of that 7 year time period take place.

First, God knows where the 70th week will begin in Revelation, and He gives that wisdom to people who ask. I know where the 70th week begins. The entire 70th week is "marked" (His word, not mine) with 7's: it begins with the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial - and the exact midpoint is marked with the 7th trumpet. 

Yes, when the sacrifices are forced to end - because of the abomination event - all will know that the MIDPOINT has come: the week has been divided into two halves. It is not very difficult to find that spot either, for Jesus told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination - and we see that fleeing in Rev. 12:6. Therefore that verse is only a second or two after the abomination. (We must allow for some reaction time.)

If you read carefully, Daniel 12:11 is NOT a "from / to" statement. There is no "to."  IN CONTEXT the "to" is understood to be "the end of these wonders." Verse 11 gives us TWO starting points, not a start and an end. In other words, the daily sacrifice will be stopped at the moment the abomination is set up.  Daniel was told the first time that the "end of these wonders" would be 3.5 years.  Daniel did not understand, so another time was given: an extra 30 days.  This is not so diffcult, for we have the book of Revelation that Daniel did not have. The WEEK ends at the 1260 day mark, but the man of sin turned Beast will not be caught and taken until 30 days later.  In Revelation the week ends on the 1260th day at the pouring out of the 7th vial and John wrote, "it is done." One translation says "it is finished." But notice in Revelation that is in chapter 16 and Jesus does not return to capture the Beast until chapter 16 - and there will be EVENTS between.  It seems then, Daniel gives us a strong hint that from the end of the week to His coming for Armageddon, there will be 30 days between. I suggest that 30 days is taken up with the marriage and supper in heaven. 

1290 days from the end (of human history) the Temple sacrifices will be abated.   You are counting backwards; Daniel was counting forwards from the midpoint. Daniel added 30 days to the 1260 days. The reason is simple: Jesus does not return on the last day of the 70th week. 

Counting back from the end 2520 days will determine  Again, You are counting backwards; Daniel was counting forwards.

By the way, this means your chart is myth and error. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

Once we get the actual break down of the 70th Week correct,

we learn how all three eschatological camps can quote

valid scriptures to support their views.

The one rapture takes place

PRE Great Tribulation (before the last 1/2 of the 70th Week)

MID 70th Week (which is not the traditional mid trib view since it erroneously determines that the 70th Week is just 1 seven-year tribulation)

POST Believer's in Jesus tribulation (after the first 1/2 of the 70th Week of Daniel).

Myth.  Rapture Pretrib is truth. Midtrib is when Satan loses and Jesus gains the kingdoms of the world back again to the rightful owner. Posttrib rapture is for the Old Covenant saints - not seen by John so not written. 

Pre"trib" means pre-70th week. It is what Paul teaches and John proves.

Edited March 27, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

 

I am glad you quoted me quoting scriptures so that it is plain to see I have been quoting scriptures.:

 

 

Allow me to repeat myself...

ALL THREE ESCHATOLOGICAL CAMPS

quote valid scriptures to support their views of the rapture

(PRE TRIB, MID TRIB, POST TRIB).

This would appear to be a logical impossibility since

the Word of God is infallible.

It puzzled me for years.

Then as I studied this among other prophecies

I learned how Sir Robert Anderson was knighted

for his discovery of the prophetic year (360 days)

and how it pinpointed the day Jesus rode into the Holy City

on the foal of a donkey according to Daniel 9:225-27.

Those who got it wrong or missed it altogether

had the year wrong (365.25 days per year).

Then I learned how the Bible divides the 70th Week of Daniel

in two 3.5 year periods.

1260 days (3.5 years)

42 months (3.5 years)

time (1 year) times (two years) half a time (six months) = 3.5 years.

When you take the time of the patience of the saints (Revelation 13)

as the first half of the 70th Week it aligns with all of the prophecies

about that time and the end.

Satan's "short time" when he turns the nations of the world against the people

of God. That would be the elect who cannot be deceived by this Messianic imposter

(Matthew 24:24) or Holy Spirit-filled believers in Jesus Christ.

No one else will be immune to the deception.

This is when brother will betray brother to death and a parent their child for "my name sake." ← (Jesus')

And believers will be killed for not worhsiping the beast (Revelation 113).

The Great Tribulation will be the last 1/2 of the 70th Week when

GOD judges the world.

First half = Satan's war with God through the slaughter of his people (Christians) by the hand of the peoples of the world.

Last half - God's judgement on Satan and the world begins.

God's people (believer's in Jesus Christ) will not be judged again by God. All his judgment on us was fulfilled on the cross of Christ.

PERIOD.

It is this simple fact that is the very reason there even is a rapture.

ALL THREE ESCHATOLOGICAL CAMPS quote valid scriptures to support their views of the rapture (PRE TRIB, MID TRIB, POST TRIB).

This is a theory, but it is simply not true. Posttrib, midtrib, and prewrath have no scriptures correctly understood to back up their theory. In other words, the rapture is coming pretrib. Period.  However, that being said, nothing will be solved until the pretrib rapture HAPPENS, and then all will know. 

First half = Satan's war with God through the slaughter of his people (Christians) by the hand of the peoples of the world.  MYTH. ERROR - not understanding the scriptures or John's timing. The first half of the 70th week will be the trumpet judgments and the "Beast" not yet revealed. Few, if any, will know who he is. Jesus taught that the days of GT will not start until AFTER the midpoint abomination event.

Last half - God's judgement on Satan and the world begins.  Poorly written. God's judgment begins with the trumpet judgments in the first half of the week. He continues judgment with the vials of His wrath in the last half. 

Note carefully, the image and mark - the two things that CAUSE days of GT, will not be created until after the False Prophet shows up - some unknown time after the midpoint of the week. Therefore, the days of GT Jesus spoke of will not really begin in Revelation until after the warning God gives in chapter 14.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

People will not know

the PRECISE DATE

at which point all of this

BEGINS

UNTIL

the Temple sacrifice is abated and they can

backdate the beginning and set a date on events to come

for the remainder of the 70th Week.

As Jesus said with regard to his prophetic advent:

Matthew 16:1–4 (AV)
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

When the Tribulation Temple is built, we can know the 70th Week has begun.

When the sacrifice is stopped, we can know the date when the 70th Week began (and the date of

all of the events of the 70th Week in the chart I provided).

People will know when the week begins by when the trumpet judgments begin. They will be hard to miss. You are right, people can count backwards from the abomination event and point to a date on a calendar. 

When the Tribulation Temple is built, we can know the 70th Week has begun.  Show us scripture to back this up. It is very possible they will build the temple before the 70th week begins.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

So God shakes the heavens and earth and says, "once more," and then he does it again and says, "once more," and then He does it again and says "once more"...... Strange for I don`t read that ANYWHERE in God`s word.

Marilyn.

Neither do I read an ONLY. 

Same word used here:

 2Co 11:25

Thrice was I beaten with rods, once ^G530 was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

I believe this for Revelation shows us TWO MORE shakings. I will put more weight on a more full or complete revelation than on a single verse that could be taken a different way.