God will bless a new temple

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

On 2/24/2019 at 3:06 PM, Retrobyter said:

  On 2/22/2019 at 11:14 PM, JustPassingThru said:

 

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

On 2/26/2019 at 6:42 PM, JustPassingThru said:

 

On 2/26/2019 at 1:49 PM, pinacled said:

On 2/26/2019 at 10:53 AM, Montana Marv said:

 

On 2/24/2019 at 8:52 AM, Last Daze said:

On 2/22/2019 at 8:29 PM, Michael37 said:

The topic was God will bless a NEW temple, yet now you are talking about locusts?

Anyway, the original comment that nearly all of you believe to be true is actually quite FALSE. They were not my words and I do NOT believe they are true in the least. I am shocked that so few have spoken up against it.

Scripture tells us over and over that the ONLY way to heaven is through Jesus and that the last temple building was destroyed and shall remain "desolate" (in ruins - without usefulness) until the END of the 70 weeks (2nd coming) - why? - Because of the rejection of the ONLY sacrifice God will accept. Do you not see that you are saying the opposite when you say that God will bless sacrifices made in a new temple? The NT says over and over that WE (the believers) are the "house" or temple of God. If we pay homage to an idol with a good heart and sincere intentions, will God bless our action? That was NOT true for the Jews in OT times, and there were times when they had no physical temple. Scripture says God never wanted sacrifices but was and still is only interested in our "hearts". By saying God will accept "abominations" because they are done with good intentions goes against everything we should be believing and doing as children of God. It equates to "idolatry" does it not?

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

The topic was God will bless a NEW temple, yet now you are talking about locusts?

Anyway, the original comment that nearly all of you believe to be true is actually quite FALSE. They were not my words and I do NOT believe they are true in the least. I am shocked that so few have spoken up against it.

Scripture tells us over and over that the ONLY way to heaven is through Jesus and that the last temple building was destroyed and shall remain "desolate" (in ruins - without usefulness) until the END of the 70 weeks (2nd coming) - why? - Because of the rejection of the ONLY sacrifice God will accept. Do you not see that you are saying the opposite when you say that God will bless sacrifices made in a new temple? The NT says over and over that WE (the believers) are the "house" or temple of God. If we pay homage to an idol with a good heart and sincere intentions, will God bless our action? That was NOT true for the Jews in OT times, and there were times when they had no physical temple. Scripture says God never wanted sacrifices but was and still is only interested in our "hearts". By saying God will accept "abominations" because they are done with good intentions goes against everything we should be believing and doing as children of God. It equates to "idolatry" does it not?

Shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain.

Nope. It does not. First of all, don't EVER call God's CONDONED sacrifices "abominations." There's no getting around the fact that Ezekiel's Temple is NOT "WE (the believers)!" While you may not understand WHY Ezekiel is told there will be animal sacrifices in the New Temple, that does NOT mean that they are somehow "evil!" You don't know why the prophecy of Ezekiel went the way it did, but it DID, and God's Word cannot be annulled! Since this prophecy has never been fulfilled, yet, the assumption must be that it SHALL be fulfilled in the future!

All the rhetoric that led to the talk about locusts is about whether certain passages of Scripture are about the future (as claimed by some) or was an event in the PAST (as claimed by others)! There's a logic to this because those certain passages of Scripture are used to build a particular scenario for the future that would be otherwise unbiblical.

This is how the topics that we start take on a life of their own through what is called "the invisible hand" process in economics. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as long as its direction and conclusions can be traced back to their roots. Sorry for my part in letting this thread get off track, but there were good reasons, and I didn't post purposely to derail this thread.

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain.

Nope. It does not. First of all, don't EVER call God's CONDONED sacrifices "abominations." There's no getting around the fact that Ezekiel's Temple is NOT "WE (the believers)!" While you may not understand WHY Ezekiel is told there will be animal sacrifices in the New Temple, that does NOT mean that they are somehow "evil!" You don't know why the prophecy of Ezekiel went the way it did, but it DID, and God's Word cannot be annulled! Since this prophecy has never been fulfilled, yet, the assumption must be that it SHALL be fulfilled in the future!

All the rhetoric that led to the talk about locusts is about whether certain passages of Scripture are about the future (as claimed by some) or was an event in the PAST (as claimed by others)! There's a logic to this because those certain passages of Scripture are used to build a particular scenario for the future that would be otherwise unbiblical.

This is how the topics that we start take on a life of their own through what is called "the invisible hand" process in economics. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as long as its direction and conclusions can be traced back to their roots. Sorry for my part in letting this thread get off track, but there were good reasons, and I didn't post purposely to derail this thread.

Thank you for that.

       The key word you used is "condoned". What about "un-condoned"? What about the un-holy sacrifices? What about sacrifices made NOT in accordance with God's Word? Sure, the sacrifices for sin made PRIOR to the cross were condoned, but NONE of them afterward were "accepted" (blessed) by God - they were an abomination. The continuation of sacrifices AFTER the cross were what caused the desolation 40 years later.

As for the Ezekiel "temple"....

It is assumed this is speaking of the Millennium time frame and in Revelation the "bride" is seen descending from heaven. Most people associate this event with the start of the 1000 years.

Now, what is described in Revelation when it says...

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

³ And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men"

and also... 

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."  ?

Edited March 5, 2019 by DonkeySpeaksAgain

[Retrobyter]

On 3/5/2019 at 7:49 AM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Thank you for that.

       The key word you used is "condoned". What about "un-condoned"? What about the un-holy sacrifices? What about sacrifices made NOT in accordance with God's Word? Sure, the sacrifices for sin made PRIOR to the cross were condoned, but NONE of them afterward were "accepted" (blessed) by God - they were an abomination. The continuation of sacrifices AFTER the cross were what caused the desolation 40 years later.

As for the Ezekiel "temple"....

It is assumed this is speaking of the Millennium time frame and in Revelation the "bride" is seen descending from heaven. Most people associate this event with the start of the 1000 years.

Now, what is described in Revelation when it says...

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

³ And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men"

and also... 

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."  ?

Shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain (and you, too, "pinacled").

By "condoned sacrifices," I'm referring to the fact that the Temple in Ezekiel (which has never yet been built) will have animal sacrifices! They are "condoned" because the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) of God shall indwell that Temple!

The fact that you two don't understand how that's possible, given the fact of Hebrews 10 where Yeshua` haMashiyach is said to be the only Sacrifice for sin that God has accepted, doesn't negate what Yechezk'el (Ezekiel) quoted God saying!

It's like the Trinity: We say that God is "THREE Persons in ONE God"; and that doesn't mean that "Yeshua` is both God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" (as the Oneness Pentecostals believe) nor does it mean that the "THREE Persons are three Gods" (as the Jews claim we believe).

We must just believe that the WHOLE Canon of Scripture is God's Holy Word, and therefore the prophecies of Ezekiel, a holy prophet of God, is just as much Scripture as is Hebrews (of which we really don't know who its author is)! God shall see to it that ALL of His Word comes true, and EXACTLY AS WRITTEN! If God doesn't fulfill Ezekiel's prophecy LITERALLY, how can we believe that the prophecies about the Messiah's First Advent (First Coming) were fulfilled so LITERALLY?! And yet, THEY WERE!

Now, DSA, you said, 'The key word you used is "condoned". What about "un-condoned"? What about the un-holy sacrifices? What about sacrifices made NOT in accordance with God's Word? Sure, the sacrifices for sin made PRIOR to the cross were condoned, but NONE of them afterward were "accepted" (blessed) by God - they were an abomination. The continuation of sacrifices AFTER the cross were what caused the desolation 40 years later.'

Actually, that's not quite right. See, you "jumped the gun" on stating that "NONE of them afterward were 'accepted' (blessed) by God - they were an abomination." IS that indeed true? Well, if we use Ezekiel as written, then, NO, it is NOT true! That was NOT the "abomination that made them desolate." The "abominations" that made them "desolate" were those things written against the "scribes and Pharisees" in Matthew 23 prior to the pronouncement of "desolation" that Yeshua` made against them in verse 38! The animal sacrifices that the priests made between Yeshua`s death and the destruction of the Temple were not "abominations"; they were just not effective! They were USELESS slaughterings as far as "acceptable sacrifices," other than the meat provided for the Levites and priests. (It's not just "+" and "-" [dichotomistic thinking]; there's also NEUTRAL, "0," which is neither "+" nor "-"! Also, there are DEGREES of "+" and DEGREES of "-"!)

And, like sin in a person that causes "death," people are DYING BY DEGREES from the moment of birth (and even earlier, the moment of conception)! THAT'S why the sinner is LITERALLY "dead!" From the cellular level, as long as the human body has more cells being produced than are dying, the person will live and grow. However, somewhere during the middle of a person's lifetime, the cells being produced begin to number less than the cells that are dying and decaying, and death begins to take over. When the cells that are dying and decaying begin to cause dysfunction of the organs of the body, the person may cease to be self-healing and die as a functional body. Hair may continue to grow, fingernails and toenails may continue to grow, but the body cannot maintain itself and it decays, usually in the ground.

In the case of animal sacrifices, these attempts at making sacrifices, which were at one time acceptable to God, became "no longer acceptable." HOWEVER, that DOES NOT make them "evil!" They just became NEUTRAL, neither doing any good nor doing any bad! The only thing "bad" was that the priests and the Jews they led were WASTING THEIR TIME and not MAKING YESHUA`S SACRIFICE THEIR OWN FOR THEIR OWN SINS! That's it. That's all.

Now, you also said, 'As for the Ezekiel "temple"....

It is assumed this is speaking of the Millennium time frame and in Revelation the "bride" is seen descending from heaven. Most people associate this event with the start of the 1000 years.'"

Actually, the Temple that Yechezk'el saw was still PRIOR TO the Millennium. Here's the key passage:

Ezekiel 43:1-12 (KJV)

1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east: 2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. 3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face. 4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. 5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.

6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me. 7 And he said unto me, "Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places. 8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger. 9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

10 "Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern. 11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them. 
12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house."

This is important to understand: IF the glory of the God of Israel came into the Temple that Yechezk'el saw, then the Temple was ALREADY PRESENT when the glory of the God of Israel came into the Temple!

Now, we also see passages of Scripture that state that the Messiah shall build the Temple when He comes:

2 Samuel 7:1-17 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies; 2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet,

"See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains."

3 And Nathan said to the king,

"Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee."

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 

5 "Go and tell my servant David, 'Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, "Why build ye not me an house of cedar?"'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, 'Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Later, Shlomoh (Solomon) wrote to Huram this message after the death of his father, David:

2 Chronicles 2:3-6 (KJV)

3 And Solomon sent to Huram the king of Tyre, saying,

"As thou didst deal with David my father, and didst send him cedars to build him an house to dwell therein, even so deal with me. 4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel. 5 And the house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods. 6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?..."

Therefore, the prophecy to David was NOT about Shlomoh, but was about David's SEED! That was the progeny of David which resulted in the ULTIMATE Mashiyach (Messiah), Yeshua`! He was indeed the "Son of God" and God was "His Father!" Again, another prophecy that God stated to David through Nathan the prophet!

(More later....)

[Retrobyter]

On 3/5/2019 at 7:49 AM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Thank you for that.

       The key word you used is "condoned". What about "un-condoned"? What about the un-holy sacrifices? What about sacrifices made NOT in accordance with God's Word? Sure, the sacrifices for sin made PRIOR to the cross were condoned, but NONE of them afterward were "accepted" (blessed) by God - they were an abomination. The continuation of sacrifices AFTER the cross were what caused the desolation 40 years later.

As for the Ezekiel "temple"....

It is assumed this is speaking of the Millennium time frame and in Revelation the "bride" is seen descending from heaven. Most people associate this event with the start of the 1000 years.

Now, what is described in Revelation when it says...

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

³ And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men"

and also... 

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."  ?

Shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain.

Continuing on...

You said, "It is assumed this is speaking of the Millennium time frame and in Revelation the "bride" is seen descending from heaven. Most people associate this event with the start of the 1000 years."Now, if you mean Ezekiel's Temple "is speaking about the Millennium time frame," I will agree with you, but I perceive that you are mixing things in Revelation 20-22 that ought not be mixed.

First of all, your statement, "Most people associate this event (apparently, 'the "bride" ... seen descending from heaven') with the start of the 1000 years," is in error. The "bride" is NOT seen descending from "heaven" until the start of chapter 21. The Millennium is seen in chapter 20, verses 1 through 6:

Revelation 20:1-6 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

That's as much as Revelation talks about the Millennium.

Chapter 20 ends with the Revolt of haSatan AFTER the Millennium and the Great White Throne Judgment.

Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Then, chapters 21 and 22 are about the eternal state AFTER the Millennium and AFTER the Judgment. It is in the eternal state that one sees the "bride" descending from the sky ("heaven"), and that "bride" IS the city, the New Jerusalem, itself!

Revelation 21:1- (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great (loud) voice out of heaven (Greek: ek tou thronou = "out of the throne") saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: hee skeenee = "the tent") of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

5 And he that sat upon the throne said,

"Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This messenger ("angel") didn't show Yochanan (John) the "church!" He showed him the CITY!

This city is no mean city, either! This city is said to be 12,000 "furlongs" (Greek: "stadia," the plural of "stadion" from the Roman "stadium" measuring 607.14222 feet, based on Roman mile markers in Europe) wide, long, and HIGH! 

That's 12,000 furlongs x (607.14222 feet / 1 furlong) x (1 mile / 5,280 feet) = 1,379.868681... miles!

That's the distance from the northern border of Turkey on the Black Sea to the southern border of Egypt! It's also the distance from the eastern border of Libya to Baghdad, Iraq! And, it's that high, as well! When you consider that Mount Everest is "only" 5.5 miles high, this city would TOWER over Mount Everest (if it were beside the mountain)! It's 250 times taller than Mount Everest! It is indeed the "Mountain of the LORD'S House!"

In the New Jerusalem, there will be no Temple. It won't be needed because we will have DIRECT ACCESS to the Father. "God Himself shall be with them (us)!"

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

7 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain.

Continuing on...

You said, "It is assumed this is speaking of the Millennium time frame and in Revelation the "bride" is seen descending from heaven. Most people associate this event with the start of the 1000 years."Now, if you mean Ezekiel's Temple "is speaking about the Millennium time frame," I will agree with you, but I perceive that you are mixing things in Revelation 20-22 that ought not be mixed.

First of all, your statement, "Most people associate this event (apparently, 'the "bride" ... seen descending from heaven') with the start of the 1000 years," is in error. The "bride" is NOT seen descending from "heaven" until the start of chapter 21. The Millennium is seen in chapter 20, verses 1 through 6:

Revelation 20:1-6 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

That's as much as Revelation talks about the Millennium.

Chapter 20 ends with the Revolt of haSatan AFTER the Millennium and the Great White Throne Judgment.

Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Then, chapters 21 and 22 are about the eternal state AFTER the Millennium and AFTER the Judgment. It is in the eternal state that one sees the "bride" descending from the sky ("heaven"), and that "bride" IS the city, the New Jerusalem, itself!

Revelation 21:1- (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great (loud) voice out of heaven (Greek: ek tou thronou = "out of the throne") saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: hee skeenee = "the tent") of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

5 And he that sat upon the throne said,

"Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This messenger ("angel") didn't show Yochanan (John) the "church!" He showed him the CITY!

This city is no mean city, either! This city is said to be 12,000 "furlongs" (Greek: "stadia," the plural of "stadion" from the Roman "stadium" measuring 607.14222 feet, based on Roman mile markers in Europe) wide, long, and HIGH! 

That's 12,000 furlongs x (607.14222 feet / 1 furlong) x (1 mile / 5,280 feet) = 1,379.868681... miles!

That's the distance from the northern border of Turkey on the Black Sea to the southern border of Egypt! It's also the distance from the eastern border of Libya to Baghdad, Iraq! And, it's that high, as well! When you consider that Mount Everest is "only" 5.5 miles high, this city would TOWER over Mount Everest (if it were beside the mountain)! It's 250 times taller than Mount Everest! It is indeed the "Mountain of the LORD'S House!"

In the New Jerusalem, there will be no Temple. It won't be needed because we will have DIRECT ACCESS to the Father. "God Himself shall be with them (us)!"

Peace be with you,

So, this "city" has nothing to do with the Church? I thought everyone agreed that the Church returns to earth at the start of the 1000 years?

[Retrobyter]

1 minute ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Peace be with you,

So, this "city" has nothing to do with the Church? I thought everyone agreed that the Church returns to earth at the start of the 1000 years?

Shalom, again, DSA.

Nope. There's no direct connection between the two.

Again, there's NO SUCH ENTITY as "the Universal (Catholic) Church!" In the Bible, they were CHURCHES, PLURAL, each one being a separate group (ekkleesia) of believers who worked together AS or LIKE the members of a body! That's what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians.

Second, the believers don't "return to earth" at the Second Coming of Yeshua` the Messiah; they are RESURRECTED at that time in a general Resurrection! Furthermore, it is NOT just the "believers"-who-make-up-the-churches that are resurrected, but also ALL THE SAINTS (HOLY ONES) down through the years who shall be resurrected!

Also, the word "holy" doesn't mean "righteous." The word "holy" means "SINGLED OUT!" They are SEPARATED as God's selection, God's choice, God's "chosen ones," God's "elect!" It has nothing to do with THEIR righteousness; it has everything to do with GOD'S selection! (Just know that God will deal with their unrighteousness!)

This is seen in Romans 11:

Romans 11:11-29 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they (the children of Israel) stumbled that they should fall (permanently)? God forbid: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the children of Israel) to jealousy. 12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them (the children of Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh (the children of Israel), and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (RESURRECTION!) 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou (a Gentile), being (of) a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they (the children of Israel) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou (a Gentile) wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these (the children of Israel lopped off), which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved (RESCUED; DELIVERED): as it is written,

There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they (the children of Israel) are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they (the children of Israel) are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't change His mind about His gifts and calling! He doesn't renege on those gifts and calling!)

And, verse 28 is key! As far as their rejection of the Messiah, the good news about their King and His Kingdom, they are enemies of true believers. HOWEVER, as concerning God's CHOICE - God's ELECTION - God's CHOOSING, they are LOVED ONES because they are still the CHILDREN of the Patriarchs, particularly known as the "CHILDREN of Israel," "Israel" being the new name of Jacob, the same Jacob as in "Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," the PATRIARCHS!

I hope you can see the logic in this and understand it. We as "churches" have really gotten backwards on much of this down through the last two millennia.

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain.

Look, there are two important words that a person MUST understand from the original languages that will make a difference in how one defines everything else. The words are "heaven" and "soul."

It took me a while to understand this myself, but I discovered the word "heaven" first:

Let's start with the Greek (following all the links), since that's how I discovered the word:

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity) -- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

NT:3735 oros (or'-os). Probably from an obsolete oroo (to rise or "rear"; perhaps akin to airoo; compare ornis); a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain): -hill, mount(-ain).

NT:142 airoo (ah'-ee-ro). A primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. Weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare naasaa') to expiate sin -- away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

OT:5375 naasaa' (naw-saw'). Or naacaah (Psalm 'eb: 'abad ('abad)) {naw-saw'}; a primitive root; to lift, in a great variety of applications, literal and figurative, absol. And rel. (as follows) -- accept, advance, arise, (able to, (armor), suffer to) bear(-er, up), bring (forth), burn, carry (away), cast, contain, desire, ease, exact, exalt (self), extol, fetch, forgive, furnish, further, give, go on, help, high, hold up, honorable (+ man), lade, lay, lift (self) up, lofty, marry, magnify, X needs, obtain, pardon, raise (up), receive, regard, respect, set (up), spare, stir up, + swear, take (away, up), X utterly, wear, yield.

NT:3733 ornis (or'-nis). Probably from a prolonged form of the base of oros; a bird (as rising in the air), i.e. (specially), a hen (or female domestic fowl) -- hen.

Now, let's look at the following verses in Scripture:

I had a Scofield Reference Bible, and the Strong's Concordance and Dictionary of the Greek Language. I used the Strong's Concordance and Dictionary of the Greek Language to look up all the occurrences of the Greek word above in the NT. Then, with the list of Scripture verses, I looked them ALL up in the NT of the Scofield Reference Bible (King James Version edition).

Long ago, I learned about 2 Corinthians 12:1-4:

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the dthird heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

And, I read in the center margin (page 1238) of the Scofield Reference Bible...

d First heaven,
of clouds;
second, of
stars; third,
God's abode.

So, this formula was locked into my brain before I was a kid of 17.

During my search of all the Scriptures that use the Greek word above (ouranos), I came across this passage:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

Now, think about someone who knew and used Greek on a daily basis. I chose this portion because all four of the highlighted words above were forms of the same word, the word above, ouranos.

Someone once tried to explain it to me this way:

"Any word, in both Greek and English, can be used in several ways: So, sometimes it can mean one thing and at other times it can mean something else. It all depends on the context."

That all sounds good, but look at the passage above! Where does the context change the meaning of the word? How does the word mean one thing only for the demand of the Jewish leaders and the word to mean something else by Yeshua` IN THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE?!

In the first verse, the P'rushiym ("Pharisees," Separatists) with the Ts'duqiym ("Sadducees," Righteous Ones) used the word as meaning "God's abode": "Show us a sign from God's abode." But, Yeshua` used the word meaning the "heaven of clouds" or the "sky."

HOWEVER, they didn't really use this word at all! They used the Aramaic or Hebrew word, shaamayim! Why would they use the Greek?! These leaders of the Jews certainly knew Aramaic at least, and probably used Hebrew, the "sacred tongue," for most Jewish dealings. Yeshua` Himself was (and is) a Jew, a child of Yhudah ("Judah"). I believe this passage was merely TRANSLATED into the Greek, and if "ouranos" was used for both meanings, SO WOULD HAVE BEEN "SHAAMAYIM!" I think the easier way to look at this passage is to simply note that Yeshua` used the word in a more naturalistic way than did the P'rushiym and the Ts'duqiym. In other words, He CORRECTED their usage of the word!

In essence, they demanded Him to show them a sign from "ouranos" (or "shaamayim"), and He said, "Sure! Red sky (ouranos) at night is a sailor's delight; red sky (ouranos) at morning, sailors take warning!"

Then, He told them that they weren't going to get anything more than that!

There was another passage that stood out to me: 2 Peter 3:3-13.

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (Greek: ouranoi = "skies") were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens (Greek: ouranoi = "skies") and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens (Greek: ouranoi = "skies") shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens (Greek: ouranoi = "skies") being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (Greek: ouranous = "skies," genitive case of ouranoi) and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, Peter (who was also a Jew) was saying that there were...

the skies and earth before the Flood of Noach's day
the FLOOD of Noach's day
the skies and earth which are now, after the Flood but before the Fire
the FIRE of the LORD'S day
the skies and earth after the Fire, "wherein dwelleth righteousness."

And, there's a Arabic tradition that says that Adam predicted two massive cataclysms: the Flood and the Fire.

There are writings of a Moroccan Berber Muslim scholar and traveller by the name of Ibn Batuta (actually “Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Abdullah Al Lawati Al Tanji Ibn Battuta”) in the 1300s that claim that the pyramids were created PRIOR to the Flood. In fact, the Egyptian people used to call the Great Pyramid of Giza, “Enoch’s Pillar.” He said that Enoch (Chanokh), the seventh from Adam, heard prophecy from Adam about two judgments that were to come, one of water and one of fire. They built two such pillars, one of stone and one of brick, in which to house the wisdom and knowledge of the ancestors. If the one out of brick did not survive, the ancestors anticipated that the one out of stone would survive the Flood."

Now, simply COUNT the number of times that "heavens" is used between these events:

1. the skies and earth before the Flood of Noach's day
the FLOOD of Noach's day
2. the skies and earth which are now, after the Flood but before the Fire
the FIRE of the LORD'S day
3. the skies and earth after the Fire, "wherein dwelleth righteousness."

So, Peter also had "three heavens"; however, HIS "heavens" ("skies") were CHRONOLOGICALLY following one another, not SPATIALLY set apart from each other! His "third heaven," then, would have been after the Fire of the LORD'S day and surrounding the earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness."

IF Paul's idea of the "third heaven" is the same as that of Peter's, then we've been wrong about this for as long as this theory (point d in Scofield's Reference Bible above) has been in existence!

I'll let this sink in before going on.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain.

Another word (as mentioned) for "heaven" in the OT was "shaamayim." This is a very interesting word. It is neither singular nor plural. It's in the DUAL number.

8064 shaamayim (shaw-mah'-yim). Dual of an unused singular shaameh {shaw-meh'}; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve)
-- air, X astrologer, heaven(-s).

Consider the following verse:

1 Kings 8:27 (KJV)

27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

The Hebrew is...

Malakhiym A 8:27 (JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh, transliterated)

27 Kiy haa'umnaam yeesheeV Elohiym `al haa'aarets? hinneeh, hashaamayim uwshmeey hashaamayim lo ykhalkluwkhaa, af kiy habayit hazeh asher baaniytiy?

The two phrases in this verse represent two different fields of duals.

Contrary to Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew and Chaldee Languages which says, "the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve", I believe that hashaamayim is dual simply because there's a daytime sky and there's a nighttime sky.

When one goes back to Genesis 1, one will find that "shaamayim" was the name given to the "raaqiya`," which is translated in some versions as an "expanse":

Genesis 1:6-8 (KJV)

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament

"Heaven."

And the evening and the morning were the second day.

That was a horizontal dividing of the waters, btw. Here's the Hebrew:

Breeshiyt 1:6-8 (JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh, transliterated)

6 Vayyo'mer Elohiym, 

"Yhiy raaqiya` b-towkh hammaayim, viyhiy mavdiyl beeyn mayim laamaayim."

7 Vayya'as Elohiym et haaraaqiya`, vayyaVdeel beeyn hammayim asher mittachat laaraaqiya` uwVeeyn hammayim asher mee`al laaraaqiya` vaayhiy keen. 8 Vayiqraa' Elohiym laaraaqiya`

"Shaamaayim."

Vayhiy `ereV vayhiy boqer yowm sheeniy.

So, the "shaamaayim," with the definite article attached, "hashaamayim," is the name for "haaraaqiya`." That is, "heaven" with the definite article, "the heaven," is the name for "the expanse." Thus, this "expanse," separating the waters below the "expanse" from the waters above the "expanse," is this planet's ATMOSPHERE! That there is little waters above the "expanse" today is simply because of Noach's FLOOD in Genesis 7 through 9! Those waters came crashing down in the period of 40 days and 40 nights. IF that was indeed half of the waters of the surface of the earth, then we are talking about half of 332,500,000 cubic miles or 166,250,000 cubic miles of water! That's an average of 166,250,000 cubic miles / 40 24-hour days = 6,927,083.333 CUBIC MILES of water per day!

Now, all of this was to show that if the "heaven" or rather the "heavens (2)" were the name of the expanse of gases that is today called the "atmosphere," then the "heavens of the heavens" would be the "expanse of the expanse" called the "expanse of the atmosphere," or "the rarification of the atmosphere," OUTER SPACE!

In Greek, Paul used a word combining "epi" meaning "above" and "ouranos" meaning "sky," "epouranios" for OUTER SPACE!

So, we might translate ...

1 Kings 8:27 (KJV)

27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the atmosphere and outer space cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain.

One other thing about "heaven" or the "sky":

There are actually 5 Greek words that were translated as "heaven," "heavens," or "heavenly," or other words, like "sky" and "celestial": "ouranos," "ouranios," "ouranothen," "mesouraneema," and "epouranios."

"3770 Ouranios" is simply the adjective form of "3772 ouranos," meaning "of or related to the sky."
"3771 Ouranothen" is a word meaning "from 3772 ouranos" or "from the sky."
"3321 Mesouraneema" is a word meaning "middle of 3772 ouranos" or the "middle of the sky." (It's only found in Revelation 8:13; Revelation 14:6; and Revelation 19:17.)
"2032 Epouranios" is an adjective form of "1909 epi" combined with "3772 ouranos" to make a word meaning "of or related to above-the-sky."

I used to think that ...

d First heaven,
of clouds;
second, of
stars; third,
God's abode.

could refer to "ouranos," "mesouraneema," and "epouranios," in that order. But, it doesn't work so neatly. While we don't know enough about an "aggelos" or "angel" to judge how the word is used in Revelation 8:13 and 14:6, we DO know how the word is used in Revelation 19:17 where it's talking about the BIRDS flying "mid-sky." Thus, "mesouraneema" is still talking about "the first heaven of clouds," so to speak.

From 1 Corinthians 15:40-41, we learn that "epouranios" (translated as "celestial") refers to the "second heaven of stars," for it calls some of these "epouranios" bodies the "sun," "moon," and the "stars."